Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[Basil the Great]

I am not so sure, because this would mean the entity Satan could snatch one from Christ's hand - which is categorically against what Christ said (not to mention it endows one with hopelessness concerning their salvation.)

Also, we have evidence that Judas repented for his sin - as in, he had a change of heart in truth. When Judas tried to return the money he got for selling out Christ, the pharisees were the ones who rejected it calling it blood money.

Then, somehow he killed himself AND disemboweled himself?

It sounds like, being such a high ranking member of Christ''s army, once he repented he was heavily assaulted by demons - psychologicallly, spiritually and physically.

In other words, Judas had a job to do that no man would ever want - to be the betrayer of the Christ. But, as Christ said even blasphemies can be forgiven, except against the Holy Spirit.


Remember, Peter directly denied Christ three times, then he repented immediately.


Even Judas' crime, I believe, can and likely is forgiven. Otherwise, all of us need to be worried about the Enemy''s ability to tempt us to the point where we lose our salvation - despite repentence.

It is entirely possible that even if Judas took his own life, he still might have repented of his sin at the last moment of his life and still could be among the saved. We simply do not know. Only God knows. Having said this, I still firmly believe that we can lose our salvation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Side Note:

Oh, and as for your question: Well, I have answered your question with others before and it didn't change their mind. For if I say that I live righteously, you might think I am boasting. If I don't give you an answer then you might conclude that I am guilty in living a sinful life (Thereby giving you all the fuel you need to continue in your own wrong belief). But I will not give that chance. You can click here to see my reply or answer to your question (that I answered for another person here at CF). Also, you have to realize that my life (or your life or your neighbor's life) is not the standard. The Bible is the standard for our life. For do you not realize that Noah was a preacher of righteousness and that the whole world around him lied in wickedness? Granted, I am not saying it is like that today. The point is that God's Word is true regardless of what man does. For man bought into the devil's lie that they would not die if they disobeyed God (i.e. if they sinned). It is the same lie that is being pushed today.

Seems quite like the boat that many put OSAS people into. If we believe that one cannot loose eternal life than we advocate for living sinfully.

It is the same lie that is pushed by the other side and even you keep this going.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Seems quite like the boat that many put OSAS people into. If we believe that one cannot loose eternal life than we advocate for living sinfully.

It is the same lie that is pushed by the other side and even you keep this going.

Not true. I boast in Christ for any good done in my life. For where do you see me taking any credit for the good works done in my life?


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[ScottA]

I am only referring to the FACT that jesus said they are written in the labs book of life. i also am assuming that when many of his disciples went back and followed him no more in John 6:66, they were among those who he had said previously they have their names written in the Lambs book of life

It is a fact that Jesus spoke both of Satan and those written in the book of life, and since He was speaking of both - it is indeed an assumption that all of those He spoke of were saved. That is a reckless assumption. By the same measure - you may as well be saying Satan is saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is God not omniscient? Has He not always known each of us, even before the universe existed? If He is omniscient as the Bible teaches, then He certainly always knew who Judas would be and what he would do to Christ. And yet, God chose him as one of Christ's original twelve disciples anyway. God uses all things to achieve His ends. Not even the devil is exempt from being used by God to accomplish His divine will. Why, then, is it such a strange thing to think Judas would also be a tool in God's hands to accomplish His redemption of humanity?



Well, simply saying so doesn't make it so. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but as an unjustified assertion, that is all it is.



It may not make any sense to you but God is very clear that He doesn't act in accordance with what we would do or with what we think (See Isaiah 55:8, 9). He has used murderers, and liars, and cowards, and adulterers to accomplish His will. He used wicked, pagan nations to judge His Chosen People! I don't see, then, why choosing a wretch like Judas should seem "incomprehensible."

Selah.

There is a big difference in God using evil men or evil situations for his ultimate good like with in the story of Joseph; But that is not the same thing as God choosing to hand pick a special elite group of men who are supposed to represent GOD and spread the message and miracles of GOD when one of them are not in any way of GOD. GOD does not approve of wrong churches or wrong disciples. God is good and He is not evil.

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[Bible Highlighter]

It is a fact that Jesus spoke both of Satan and those written in the book of life, and since He was speaking of both - it is indeed an assumption that all of those He spoke of were saved. That is a reckless assumption.

It is even more reckless to assume God directly chooses evil people to represent His key holy offices of discipleship, too. Does God do the same thing with angels in heaven? Is there a key holy group of elite angels that God has handpicked whereby one of them is false or evil?

Also, you cannot betray someone unless they were once in favor with them. Putting on a mere show of good works is not betrayal to GOD. He knows everything. In other words, the only way Judas could betray GOD is if He was once in favor with GOD. For GOD sees it all.


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[ToBeLoved]

Not true. I boast in Christ for any good done in my life. For where do you see me taking any credit for the good works done in my life?


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I know you take quite a bit of credit for how holy you are and your boasts are that you are not like other Christians. Boasting is boasting.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Not true. I boast in Christ for any good done in my life. For where do you see me taking any credit for the good works done in my life?


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I would like you to address my post now. What you did is change the subject.

 

[tatteredsoul]

It is entirely possible that even if Judas took his own life, he still might have repented of his sin at the last moment of his life and still could be among the saved. We simply do not know. Only God knows. Having said this, I still firmly believe that we can lose our salvation.

I don't necessarily doubt one can lose their salvation. Well... I dont think it is possible honestly.

I DO think as a saved person you can DO things that can send you extremely close to hell.

I recall the verses that compare storing riches in heaven, and everlasting shame or glory. I would imagine the storage of treasures (fruits of the spirit) constitute a portion of your regalia in heaven, and those that "make it" on the skin of their teeth may be (for all intents and purposes) nearly naked!

But, being naked in Heaven is better than be glorious in Hell. Although, many powers, fallen and demons would have you believe different (better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.)

I am just very cautious to say one can lose salvation - save some ridiculously egregious act like telling the Holy Spirit it is a demon - and meaning it.

 

[ScottA]

It is even more reckless to assume God directly chooses evil people to represent His key holy offices of discipleship, too. Does God do the same thing with angels in heaven? Is there a key holy group of elite angels that God has handpicked whereby one of them is false or evil?

"God directly choosing evil people to represent His key holy offices of discipleship" would be a poor description of things.

No, what we experience in the world is rather the manifestation of things on high - things that happened in the twinkling of an eye on high, that are unfolded in the context of time. There are no appointed offices, except those of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Nor is there any term of office - No, the timetable of terms, is "I am" which does not unfold as we experience life, but simply "is."

Thus, we are not to translate "chosen" to mean the potential for reckless or perfect acts of God, but rather a timeless decision unlike anything that can be known within the context of time. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

 

[LoveofTruth]

"God directly choosing evil people to represent His key holy offices of discipleship" would be a poor description of things.

No, what we experience in the world is rather the manifestation of things on high - things that happened in the twinkling of an eye on high, that are unfolded in the context of time. There are no appointed offices, except those of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Nor is there any term of office - No, the timetable of terms, is "I am" which does not unfold as we experience life, but simply "is."

Thus, we are not to translate "chosen" to mean the potential for reckless or perfect acts of God, but rather a timeless decision unlike anything that can be known within the context of time. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Why are you even worried about 'if we sin' you don't think that a saved person sins at all. So what was God trying to say here? You don't sin if you are in Christ, but just in case you do. lol. No of course not.

Jesus is saying we need an Advocate always because we all still sin. Jesus is saying that He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin because we still sin.

As long as you think you don't sin, you'll never succesffully understand scripture.

So how do you account for this in scripture when you say it is impossible to happen?

I never said a saved person cannot sin. They do, but when we sin we need to turn back to God and come into repentance and faith. That is for the sin shown to us and that we know of. Sins of ignorance are not the same if we have faith we are covered for such as in the Ot the sins of ignorance had a sacrifice But wilful presumptuous sins had not sacrifice, and this is similar to Hebrews 10 that speaks of believers if they sin wilfully...there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin.

also Jesus is the advocate for all believers, and if we sin and confess and turn to him again in faith he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us. But we they harden our hearts through the deceitfulness of sin and depart from the living God he is not our advocate, they we not appropriating his place as an advocate for us. If they deny him he will deny them as scripture clearly teaches.

truthfully I marvel at how some cannot see these things . I find such strained and convoluted arguments to avoid the simple scripture and the meanings.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"God directly choosing evil people to represent His key holy offices of discipleship" would be a poor description of things.

No, what we experience in the world is rather the manifestation of things on high - things that happened in the twinkling of an eye on high, that are unfolded in the context of time. There are no appointed offices, except those of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Nor is there any term of office - No, the timetable of terms, is "I am" which does not unfold as we experience life, but simply "is."

Thus, we are not to translate "chosen" to mean the potential for reckless or perfect acts of God, but rather a timeless decision unlike anything that can be known within the context of time. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Uh, no. The discipleship was an appointed holy position from GOD. In John 17:12, we see that Jesus talks with the Father about how he had received the disciples from the Father. Now, does anything bad come from the Father of lights? NEVER. God is good. Judas was once good, but then later fell away.

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[ScottA]

Uh, no. The discipleship was an appointed holy position from GOD. In John 17:12, we see that Jesus talks with the Father about how he had received the disciples from the Father. Now, does anything bad come from the Father of lights? NEVER. God is good. Judas was once good, but then later fell away.

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You miss the point, and not to get off track...but the passing of time and the way of the world does not define the way of God. On the contrary, the world is a manifestation of things on high - conveyed in time...which does not exist with God, and therefore cannot be used to claim positions such as discipleship. Limited to God, there is no discipleship - only Christ, and we in Christ (this is the message of John 17:12).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You miss the point, and not to get off track...but the passing of time and the way of the world does not define the way of God. On the contrary, the world is a manifestation of things on high - conveyed in time...which does not exist with God, and therefore cannot be used to claim positions such as discipleship. Limited to God, there is no discipleship - only Christ, and we in Christ (this is the message of John 17:12).

So you are saying the discipleship didn't really exist? You do not believe the discipleship is something that is from God?

Okay. That to me is waaaay out there.
But then I suppose that makes sense to those who want to justify a belief that sin cannot separate a believer from GOD. But even back in the Garden, sin had caused a separation between God and Adam. Satan told Eve, "Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4). This was said in relation to Eve disobeying God's Command (Genesis 3:2-3) (Disobeying God's Commands is sin - 1 John 3:4). Meaning, the same lie from the devil is being pushed upon believers today. You will not die if you sin.


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[ScottA]

So you are saying the discipleship didn't really exist? You do not believe the discipleship is something that is from God?

Okay. That to me is waaaay out there.
But then I suppose that makes sense to those who want to justify a belief that sin cannot separate a believer from GOD. But even back in the Garden, sin had caused a separation between God and Adam. Satan told Eve, "Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4). This was said in relation to Eve disobeying God's Command (Genesis 3:2-3) (Disobeying God's Commands is sin - 1 John 3:4). Meaning, the same lie from the devil is being pushed upon believers today. You will not die if you sin.


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I suppose that is not the point I was addressing. Sin is death, no debate.

But my point was that one of the greatest misunderstandings of matters of God, is time. God's truth does not exist in a time-based world (this world). So, yes, there is a timeline of events wherein the devil and Eve and disciples, etc., etc., play their respective roles - but that is not how it really is - that is rather the revelation of God's timeless truth through the media of time (i.e., as it is written).

So, then, remove time from our ability to explain God's [actual] truth...and all things stand as "I am" or fall as "I am not." In that timeless reality of God, then - meaning "It is finished"...can one loose their salvation? No - it's impossible ("It is finished.").

 

[ToBeLoved]

Sins of ignorance are not the same if we have faith we are covered for such as in the Ot the sins o=f ignorance had a sacrifice But wilful presumptuous sins had not sacrifice, and this is similar to hebrews 10 that speaks of believers if they sin wilfully...there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin.

This is one of the most often misquoted and understood scriptures. If you read the chapter, you will see that Paul is talking about the Old Covenant Levitical priesthood and telling the Hebrews, who were previously under Old Covenant Law that there is no more Levitical priesthood as we now have the High Priest. And since there is no more Levitical priesthood, there is no longer temporary atonement for sin through that priesthood.

That all atonement now comes through the High Priest, Jesus Christ.

So please stop using this verse in this way showing that God does not forgive sin, because you are using it in error.

 

[OcifferPls]

I think, too often the tendency is to caricature the subjects of the gospel narratives, to fit an idea or theology we're predisposed to, without really opening them up so to speak, to find out what's really there. Judas is obviously no exception: popularly, he's easily treated as the embodiment of evil, or, sometimes more of an innocuous victim of the sovereign decision of a greater plan. The truth about Judas might be beyond us, but from what little facts we're given, I suspect Judas was a little bit of both, and I think what was revealed was that Judas' motives, which may seem common enough to be innocuous to us at first, did eventually lead him to do great evil.

We have a similar situation with Peter, as well, but I think it is eventually shown that, while Peter's expectations led him in a similar direction, his motives were nevertheless sincere.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I suppose that is not the point I was addressing. Sin is death, no debate.

But my point was that one of the greatest misunderstandings of matters of God, is time. God's truth does not exist in a time-based world (this world). So, yes, there is a timeline of events wherein the devil and Eve and disciples, etc., etc., play their respective roles - but that is not how it really is - that is rather the revelation of God's timeless truth through the media of time (i.e., as it is written).

So, then, remove time from our ability to explain God's [actual] truth...and all things stand as "I am" or fall as "I am not." In that timeless reality of God, then - meaning "It is finished"...can one loose their salvation? No - it's impossible ("It is finished.").

A person thinks this way because they have been influenced by their watching of time travel movies and or by their reading of time travel books (or comics).

I used to believe GOD was outside of our linear concept of time (as a result of this influence), but this is a human concept or rationalization of time from fiction that doesn't make any sense. GOD is simply aware of everything that is going to happen in perfect detail. GOD does not exist in all points in time. GOD is still not creating the Earth in the past with the six day creation. For GOD rested (stopped) on the seventh day from His work. Would GOD have truly stopped from His work on the 6 day creation if He is still doing it in the past? Also, is the WORD being re-crucfied on the cross over and over and over again? Does not the Scriptures say that He was sacrificed one time for us?

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God" (Hebrews 10:12).​

Also, is GOD existing in the future re-enacting the same events over and over and over again? Has the 2nd Coming of Jesus already happened in some alternate future time line that we have not experienced yet (But yet our future selves have experienced it in some future time line)? Is Jesus constantly fighting in the battle of Armageddon?

All this sounds like GOD has to be a slave to time whereby He has to keep mindlessly re-enacting all events in all points in time. But this is simply not true. This concept of time is merely an invention from Science Fiction and it has muddled your mind in the thinking of the gospel and the truth.


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[ToBeLoved]

Uh, no. The discipleship was an appointed holy position from GOD. In John 17:12, we see that Jesus talks with the Father about how he had received the disciples from the Father. Now, does anything bad come from the Father of lights? NEVER. God is good. Judas was once good, but then later fell away.

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First, everyone who comes to Christ is given to Him by the Father. So there is nothing special, per se with the disciples as we all are given to Christ by the Father.

Second, the exact verse you quoted says "except the son of perdition", so that makes it pretty clear that Judas was not one of Christ's Own.

 

[ScottA]

A person thinks this way because they have been influenced by their watching of time travel movies and or by their reading of time travel books (or comics).

I used to believe GOD was outside of our linear concept of time (as a result of this influence), but this is a human concept or rationalization of time from fiction that doesn't make any sense. GOD is simply aware of everything that is going to happen in perfect detail. GOD does not exist in all points in time. GOD is still not creating the Earth in the past with the six day creation. For GOD rested (stopped) on the seventh day from His work. Would GOD have truly stopped from His work on the 6 day creation if He is still doing it in the past? Also, is the WORD being re-crucfied on the cross over and over and over again? Does not the Scriptures say that He was sacrificed one time for us?

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God" (Hebrews 10:12).​

Also, is GOD existing in the future re-enacting the same events over and over and over again? Has the 2nd Coming of Jesus already happened in some alternate future time line that we have not experienced yet (But yet our future selves have experienced it in some future time line)? Is Jesus constantly fighting in the battle of Armageddon?

All this sounds like GOD has to be a slave to time whereby He has to keep mindlessly re-enacting all events in all points in time. But this is simply not true. This concept of time is merely an invention from Science Fiction and it has muddled your mind in the thinking of the gospel and the truth.


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No...you speak of your own understanding, and convince yourself with reason and even questions. But I have not come by what I have told you by men or by my own, but by God, whom took me up above the Earth and yes, outside the world, made Himself known to me.