Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[LoveofTruth]

What a silly question. Of course we are still of God even if we sin. Read what Jesus says, we have an Advocate in Christ.

and yet you are contrary to the truth as seen here. It is not a silly question, It is a very important one

"8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."(1 John 3:8 KJV)

If we confess and repent of sin we have an advocate. John says if we confess. notice the IF part

also read this verse and answer it

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him"

so if you "sinneth" have you ever seen him and known him?

what do you think John is saying here by the Spirit of God?

 

[LoveofTruth]

So how do you know WHO is IN CHRIST? Secondly, how do you know or we know that you are in Christ?

Such is the problem with this line of thinking. Only God knows.

You know by their profession and words and actions and belief and by the works of faith and fruit of the Spirit and he that doth righteousness is of God etc I can show many examples,

 

[LoveofTruth]

So how do you know WHO is IN CHRIST? Secondly, how do you know or we know that you are in Christ?

Such is the problem with this line of thinking. Only God knows.

and for each person, we know by the inner witness. His Spirit bears witness with our spirit...

 

[LoveofTruth]

believers faith is faith in God's work for them and in then, not in their own work.

 

[ToBeLoved]

and yet you are contrary to the truth as seen here. It is not a silly question, It is a very important one

"8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."(1 John 3:8 KJV)

If we confess and repent of sin we have an advocate. John says if we confess. notice the IF part

also read this verse and answer it

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him"

so if you "sinneth" have you ever seen him and known him?

what do you think John is saying here by the Spirit of God?

God never said He advocated sin. Sin is of the devil. But that does not take away that we have an advocate in Jesus Christ who is fair and just to forgive us our sins. Maybe you missed that part.

1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins;

1 John 1:9
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us

I think you should read all that the Bible says.

 

[ToBeLoved]

and for each person, we know by the inner witness. His Spirit bears witness with our spirit...

That doesn't answer why I should even believe you are saved.

You sinned earlier by bearing false witness, yet you say you don't sin. That doesn't sound like someone who is in God.

 

[SeventyOne]

You are simply trying to avoid the obvious rebuke to yourself and the OSAS crowd from 1 John 3:6-9 as it says. And jesus used baiting questions as well to expose the false men.

"8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."(1 John 3:8 KJV)

I ask you if you commit sin are you still of God?

and can you commit sin?

I know exactly where you are coming from, but I've never refused to answer your baiting question (whose bearing false witness now).

I'll more than happily answer your question, once you clarify it based on my previous two responses because you're being deceptive.

It seems you plan to use versions of the verse that misrepresent the Greek, like the KJV above, which makes it sound like a single sin makes one not "still of God", and ignore those translations that correctly represent the verb tenses that indicate a continual practice of sin.

So, I need your clarification. Are you basing the question off a mistranslation or an accurate one?

 

[ScottA]

I don't consider any man that is not IN CHRIST to be saved.Only those in Christ are saved as jesus said in John 15, ( before the cross) and so for Judas or anyone else to do anything such as preach cast out devils heal the sick, etc they must be in Christ and he in them.

You assume that the seventy were all included.

also many disciples went away from jesus who had life and had their names written in the Lambs book of life. The 70 that came back and had rejoiced that devils were subject to them jesus told to rejoice because there names were written in the lambs book of life. This means they were saved before the cross ( but not without it) unless you want to say they should not have rejoiced over such a thing because they were not saved, and that they were not in the Lambs book of life as jesus said they were

You misquote. Jesus also said, regarding the same 70 and their deeds, that He saw Satan fall like lightening from Heaven, referring both to the saved and to the unsaved among them.

Yes, He sent out the 70, but do you not know that the saved are saved and the unsaved condemned by the same act of Christ - that one is taken but the other left? Matthew 24:40

 

[LoveofTruth]

That doesn't answer why I should even believe you are saved.

You sinned earlier by bearing false witness, yet you say you don't sin. That doesn't sound like someone who is in God.

1 john 3:9, if we abide in Christ we sin not, the new man is in the spirit and we walk in that newness of life. But if we yield to the flesh we die and are in sin. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. The man in Christ can produce good fruit the man not abiding in Christ cannot produce good fruit

 

[LoveofTruth]

You assume that the seventy were all included.
You misquote. Jesus also said, regarding the same 70 and their deeds, that He saw Satan fall like lightening from Heaven, referring both to the saved and to the unsaved among them.

Yes, He sent out the 70, but do you not know that the saved are saved and the unsaved condemned by the same act of Christ - that one is taken but the other left? Matthew 24:40

I am only referring to the FACT that jesus said they are written in the labs book of life. i also am assuming that when many of his disciples went back and followed him no more in John 6:66, they were among those who he had said previously they have their names written in the Lambs book of life

 

[LoveofTruth]

I know exactly where you are coming from, but I've never refused to answer your baiting question (whose bearing false witness now).

I'll more than happily answer your question, once you clarify it based on my previous two responses because you're being deceptive.

It seems you plan to use versions of the verse that misrepresent the Greek, like the KJV above, which makes it sound like a single sin makes one not "still of God", and ignore those translations that correctly represent the verb tenses that indicate a continual practice of sin.

So, I need your clarification. Are you basing the question off a mistranslation or an accurate one?

You are false there the KJV has it right and it is far to long a topic to get into why the KJV is the bible english speaking people should use. It is about a 45 hour talk and thousands of threads would be made from such a talk/

But If you try to use another translation that says "does not continue to sin" etc. I still ask you do you continue to sin after being saved? if so then while you are in the sin you cannot claim to be in the light, you lie if you say you are in the light and you cannot claim to have know Jesus when you were in that sin as John says clearly to the unbiased read ( what I mean by the biased reader is that many have been taught heresy by their leaders and been biased against the truth sadly)

the word "commit" is to give yourself over to that . Like when man is committed to an action. sinning in ignorance is not the same. But wilful sin is presumptuous and has no more covering. as in the OT also.

we see this example in Hebrews as well.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Notice the writer includes himself in this warning.


and here are some more troubling verses for you to consider

"6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (1 John 3:6 KJV)

"6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:" ( 1 John 1:6 KJV)

so if you "sin" are you still in the light and can you still claim to have known Jesus then?

The answer is NO, when you are in sin in the flesh God does not know you. He only knows you in Christ as you abide in him a in the light. if you walk in darkness then clearly you are not in the light. or in him and you have never known him in that state. God can truly say to Judas and all who die in sin and the flesh, even if they once were in the light, that he NEVER knew them. God never knows any man in the flesh, only in Christ in the light'

 

[LoveofTruth]

God never said He advocated sin. Sin is of the devil. But that does not take away that we have an advocate in Jesus Christ who is fair and just to forgive us our sins. Maybe you missed that part.

1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins;

1 John 1:9
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us

I think you should read all that the Bible says.

now you are being sarcastic and speaking error. You are assuming I do not read closely what i speak of. I have read 1 John many times very closely every word.

If we confess our sins he is faithful to forgive us and to cleanse us

if we do not what happens? you act as if he is an advocate for the unrepentant sinner who turns from God and departs from God through and evil heart of unbelief. But scripture does not say this.

 

[LoveofTruth]

That doesn't answer why I should even believe you are saved.

You sinned earlier by bearing false witness, yet you say you don't sin. That doesn't sound like someone who is in God.

I did not bear false witness show me exactly where or else you are bearing false witness and your words will fall on your own head

 

[LoveofTruth]

I am amazed at how some will preach for sin for their whole life and not the victory over sin. Christ came to destroy the works of the devil and to give us victory over sin. Not to keep us in it 24 /7 as some teach

 

[ToBeLoved]

1 john 3:9, if we abide in Christ we sin not, the new man is in the spirit and we walk in that newness of life. But if we yield to the flesh we die and are in sin. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. The man in Christ can produce good fruit the man not abiding in Christ cannot produce good fruit

And you sinned.

So I guess that should answer my question about you then.

 

[LoveofTruth]

And you sinned.

So I guess that should answer my question about you then.

show me where I sinner here

and yes believers will sin sometimes, but when I sin I am not in the light and need to repent as all do.

 

[ToBeLoved]

now you are being sarcastic and speaking error. You are assuming I do not read closely what i speak of. I have read 1 John many times very closely every word.

If we confess our sins he is faithful to forgive us and to cleanse us

if we do not what happens? you act as if he is an advocate for the unrepentant sinner who turns from God and departs from God through and evil heart of unbelief. But scripture does not say this.

Why are you even worried about 'if we sin' you don't think that a saved person sins at all. So what was God trying to say here? You don't sin if you are in Christ, but just in case you do. lol. No of course not.

Jesus is saying we need an Advocate always because we all still sin. Jesus is saying that He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin because we still sin.

As long as you think you don't sin, you'll never succesffully understand scripture.

So how do you account for this in scripture when you say it is impossible to happen?

 

[ToBeLoved]

show me where I sinner here

and yes believers will sin sometimes, but when I sin I am not in the light and need to repent as all do.

That's not what you said. You CLEARLY said that YOU DO NOT SIN.

Let's not move the goal posts now and you were bearing false witness earlier when you said you do not sin.

So how can any one of us trust you now?

 

[ToBeLoved]

now you are being sarcastic and speaking error. You are assuming I do not read closely what i speak of. I have read 1 John many times very closely every word.

If we confess our sins he is faithful to forgive us and to cleanse us

if we do not what happens? you act as if he is an advocate for the unrepentant sinner who turns from God and departs from God through and evil heart of unbelief. But scripture does not say this.

God gifts are irrevocable.

Read it, it's in the Bible.

And God says that NOTHING on earth or in heaven can remove us out of Christ's right hand. Now I think that we ourselves are not powerful enough to make God a liar, or are we?

If you would stop adding on to things with questions to me and maybe answer the question at hand we could move forward.

Now show me that we can walk away from the New Covenant?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So, you are sinless then?

Here are 4 major ways people view salvation in Christianity (With #1 being the most popular & the most wrong) (Note: This is not meant to be an exhaustive list).

#1. Belief Alone Salvation-ism
(OSAS - Once Saved Always Always Saved or Eternal Security) (This belief teaches that one is saved by a belief in Jesus alone; And that once a person has genuinely believed (i.e. has become saved), they cannot become unsaved (no matter what they do). This means one is saved by grace + evil works over the course of their life (sometimes mingled with good works - that is optional in most cases). A lot of OSAS Proponents believe this way. Some OSAS Proponents appear to deny that they do not support Antinomianism (and or that the believer will generally live a holy life as a result of this gospel), but the very message of this gospel can easily lead somebody to think they have a license to sin (Whether they like it or not). For when you appear to have taken away the consequences of something, it is human nature to do the wrong thing. For example: If there was no speed limit law on the highways anymore in your State, what do you think people are going to do? Well, the reality is that more people would drive faster (because they know they will not get tickets) and yet they will be unsafe on the road (as a result of their driving too fast). Also, ex-OSAS Proponents have testified to the fact that this gospel leads them into sin instead of walking more holy (Because they do not need to worry about sin so much or treat it as seriously as Scripture teaches). In fact, in my dealings with this type of believer over the years: I get the impression many times that good deeds (or works) is worse than doing sin. They believe no person on the planet can stop sinning. So they focus on trying to get the faithful believer that they sin (when this is not case). They ask questions like “Do you still sin?” Yet, Jesus told two people to go and sin no more (John 5:14) (John 8:11). Jesus said to be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). Paul says be ye angry and sin not (Ephesians 4:26). 1 Peter 4:1 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts. Revelation 14:3-5 talks about how the 144,000 Messianic Jews in the future will be found without fault before the throne of God. In other words, the OSAS Proponent does not believe the Scriptures (on this matter). For if they did, they would encourage the faithful believer to stay the course in their holy walk with God; But they try to drag them down to their level instead.

2. Works Alone Salvation-ism
(Which means one is primarily saved by mostly keeping a set of rules with very little to no focus on grace). The Pharisees believed this way. Accept, they couldn't keep the Law on their own power without God. While I have not personally encountered anyone who admitted to believing this way, I have encountered Christians who placed waaaaay more emphasis on works than on the grace of God. Two of them I have ran into had even denied the blood atonement and or the substitutionary atonement (Which is disturbing).

3. Belief + Man Directed Works
Usually these individuals think that not only is it necessary for one to have a belief in Jesus (i.e. The grace of Christ), but they also think man directed works (mostly human effort) is necessary, (Which in many cases includes them obeying certain portions of the Old Testament Law). Sometimes certain man made laws are mixed in with this belief, too. Granted, there are some who think we need to obey the Old Law and believe God works within them (But the major problem here is that they strive to follow a Law that no longer applies anymore (i.e. the 613 Laws of Moses - or some form of it) that is sometimes complimented with following man made laws or traditions). This belief is wrong because we are not saved by man directed works or commands mixed with grace.

4. The Gospel & Abiding in Jesus by Faith (Relationship-ism with GOD)
A person is first saved by believing the gospel thru repentance and faith (Accepting Jesus as their Savior). A person then continues in Christ (Who is the source of their salvation) and they continue in the good work the LORD will do thru them (With their continual believing in Christ’s death and resurrection). This is the true Biblical position. For one, there is no life without abiding in the Son (1 John 5:12). Two, if one abides in Christ, good fruit will primarily be evident in their life and not bad fruit. For the LORD is holy and cannot abide in sinful rebellious people. In this belief, according to the truth of God's Word, men are saved by repenting of their sins and by accepting Jesus as their Savior, believing that He died and rose again on their behalf. These men then continue to remain saved by trusting in Jesus and abiding in Him whereby the good work of the LORD shines forth within their life. The believer gives thanks to the LORD and not themselves for this good work done in them. For there is none good but God. For only God can transform our lives and only God can truly do good (which is thru us). In this belief, the believer looks to the Commands in the New Testament and not the Old Testament (as a part of their obedience and or their cooperation in Christ). For the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). This is my position on the Scriptures. My brother "LoveofTruth" also (for the most part) believes this way, as well. So your claim that he believes in works salvation is not true. Also, believers generally walk a holy life before God. This does not mean that they may not falter (or stumble) on occasion (Whereby they would need God’s grace thru repentance). The key difference here is that the true believer is like an alcoholic who has entered into a program so as to become sober free and uncontrolled by their addiction (Who may have stumbled on rare occasion in their road to recovery). However, the OSAS Proponent is like the alcoholic who enters a program with the intention that they will never become sober free in this life. They will forever be addicted or enslaved to their sin. However, Jesus has the power to set the captives free. The key question is: Do you believe Him?

Side Note:

Oh, and as for your question: Well, I have answered your question with others before and it didn't change their mind. For if I say that I live righteously, you might think I am boasting. If I don't give you an answer then you might conclude that I am guilty in living a sinful life (Thereby giving you all the fuel you need to continue in your own wrong belief). But I will not give that chance. You can click here to see my reply or answer to your question (that I answered for another person here at CF). Also, you have to realize that my life (or your life or your neighbor's life) is not the standard. The Bible is the standard for our life. For do you not realize that Noah was a preacher of righteousness and that the whole world around him lied in wickedness? Granted, I am not saying it is like that today. The point is that God's Word is true regardless of what man does. For man bought into the devil's lie that they would not die if they disobeyed God (i.e. if they sinned). It is the same lie that is being pushed today.

"Ye shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4).

But we do not have to die.

Today, people in the world can be corrected of wrong behavior. There are even worldly programs to correct such sins as alcoholism, sex addiction, gambling addiction, etc. But will this prevent us from dying spiritually? No. If one repents of their sins and accepts Jesus Christ for real, in many cases the Lord can cure such addictions of wrong behavior overnight and for good (along with forgiving them of their sins). This is the power of Jesus Christ. For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother" (1 John 3:10).


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