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The Real Presence-the Eucharist

rturner76

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Still, the covenant was not made with the grafted ones. The grafted ones are getting an advantage because what Yeshua did for everybody.

He gave us a gift. He undid what Adam had done. But you need to accept that gift with your mind.

You need to accept what Yeshua is and what His Father is asking, and that thing is that you should obey Yahweh.

With our beliefs, we can show if we are being obedient to our Creator. Our actions show our beliefs on what we write here.

As for me, I am confident I am not saved by my actions or even by my faith. I am saved by God's grace. The Bible tells me so.

2 Corinthians 12:8-9
8
Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me

Romans 3: 23-24
23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 4:16
16
Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

And it goes on and on and on I won't just fill up the whole page with stuff I'm sure people get the point. People are always puzzled at this teaching because they can't believe that it's so easy but that's the Gospel. Jesus has come from on high and given us Grace. Meaning undeserved favor. Grace can't be earned or it wouldn't be grace, it would be a reward. Isn't that awesome! Hallelujah!
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I struggle to understand the point you are making. In dying, Jesus conquered death, physical death is no longer the delineating factor. If someone's physical death prevents me from asking for their help in intercession in a sense am I not suggesting that Jesus conquering of death is in some sense not complete. Our love and concern for one another is not destroyed by death, and Jesus death and resurrection has resolved the matter.
That is absurd, for you are reading into the effects of the atonement that which is nowhere taught or exampled, but which is only shown to be the position and power of God. You might as well argue that since Jesus conquered death then believers will not die, or can read minds and fly at will wherever angels go!

And is your view of Scripture so low that you actually think that if praying to created beings in Heaven was of God, and thus a practice of believers, that the Holy Spirit would utterly fail to provide even one example of them doing so, while recording pagans doing so, and recording approx. 200 prayers in Scripture to God, and instruction to pray to Him in Heaven? Really?

Why not just admit that this comes from tradition, rather than read it into Scripture, and thus abuse it?
 
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thecolorsblend

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It is NOT the issue, and resorting to making it that reveals your ignorance or sophistry. For that we ask others on earth to pray for us simply do not evidence or equate to asking invisible beings in Heaven for help, which only God is shown to be the Heavenly object of, and has the power to hear all such and respond to them.

The very fact that Scripture affirms asking a fellow Christian for prayer but which is always to those on earth and never to those in Heaven, despite this being a most common practice in Catholicism, while all the abundant prayers in Scripture are to God, testifies against your presumption based on a corresponding equivalence of ability btwn earthly relations and those btwn the Heavenly and earthly realm.

However, faced with the utter absence of even one example of a believer praying to anyone on Heaven by God, and being instructed to ("Our Father," not "our Mother"), despite prayer being a most basic practice, then i can understand your desperate attempt at presumptuous extrapolation.

But either provide the needed examples or cease from your spurious attempts to argue for what the Scriptures do not testify to.
Sacred Scripture forbids contacting a medium and using them to summon a departed soul for the purpose of two-way dialogue. That is necromancy.

Now, my observation has been that Protestants want to redefine necromancy to mean something other than that. This is fairly common with a lot of Protestantism: Change the definition of a word, impute the incorrect definition onto traditional Christians and then call them "unbiblical".

With respect, I refuse to allow that. Necromancy has a specific meaning in Sacred Scripture (not to mention the dictionary!). Put simply, I take exception to you redefining words to suit your man-made Protestant traditions, castigating me and my Church in the process.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Many pass judgement. These brand new upstart churches with their Pastors having their online Youtube degrees want to vilify the very church founded by Christ the Apostles and their direct followers. The same church that approved the Biblical Cannon at the Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419.[12] These councils were under the authority of St. Augustine. The Bible we hold so dear was formalized by the Mother church which seems to be hated by so many.

If anyone needs proof of the Eucharist from the Bible here it is:
You are a little late, as your assertions have been refuted already in this thread, as here in part, and more fully here, and (as concerns the canon) see here by the grace of God.

Time to sleep.
 
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thecolorsblend

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You are a little late, as your assertion have been refuted already in this thread, as here
I can't speak for anyone else but, as it was originally in reply to me, I must say most of that post was pure tl;dr. The part I replied to led to a rather lengthy exchange between me and you regarding asking the faithful departed for their prayers... a subject you introduced, not me. The substance of my point (How can Catholic Eucharistic theology be manifestly in error as it goes so far back?) was not really addressed in that post.

Admittedly I've only skimmed this thread though...
 
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Philip_B

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That is absurd, for you are reading into the effects of the atonement that which is nowhere taught or exampled, but which is only shown to be the position and power of God. You might as well argue that since Jesus conquered death then believers will not die, or can read minds and fly at will wherever angels go!

And is your view of Scripture so low that you actually think that if praying to created beings in Heaven was of God, and thus a practice of believers, that the Holy Spirit would utterly fail to provide even one example of them doing so, while recording pagans doing so, and recording approx. 200 prayers in Scripture to God, and instruction to pray to Him in Heaven? Really?

Why not just admit that this comes from tradition, rather than read it into Scripture, and thus abuse it?
I take it that we have a somewhat different understanding of Prayer.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Choose one of the following:

1. Whoever eats the bread and drinks the wine of the Communion will have eternal life.

2. Whoever lives the life Christ had lived (eats his flesh and drinks his blood) will have eternal life.

Mark 10
17As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 18And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19“You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’” 20And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.” 21Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

23And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, “How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!”

Matthew 8
20Jesus replied, "Foxes have dens andbirds have nests, but
the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."
 
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amadeois

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@rturner76

Does't grace goes also with faith?

So by the grace of God everybody then gets saved?

Everybody doesn't have to do a thing?

How about Revelation21:8
The cowardly,
The unbelivers,
The abominable and murderers,
The whoremongers,
The sorcerers,
The idolaters,
And ALL the liars.

They will end up in the lake of fire that is the second death. The SPIRITUAL DEATH forever.

So not everybody gets saved like you propose.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I can't speak for anyone else but, as it was originally in reply to me, I must say most of that post was pure tl;dr. The part I replied to led to a rather lengthy exchange between me and you regarding asking the faithful departed for their prayers... a subject you introduced, not me. The substance of my point (How can Catholic Eucharistic theology be manifestly in error as it goes so far back?) was not really addressed in that post.

Admittedly I've only skimmed this thread though...
So you presume to post on a thread about a most substantial issue, involving statements in 4 gospels, and a long discourse in one, your response is tl;dr (too long; didn't read)?

Which is consistent with your reliance upon uninspired, post-apostolic men, and ultimately the presumed ensured veracity of Rome, rather than being as a noble Berean and searching the Scriptures to see if this was so. Consistent with this 1st century souls This reliance is contrary in principle to The Lord and His apostles could have relied upon Jewish Tradition as authoritative but instead they invoked Scripture as the standard for obedience and establishing Truth claims, in dissent from the magisterium who insisted their judgment was to be followed.

At issue here is whether the words such as "Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you," (1 Corinthians 11:24) "which is given for you" (Luke 22:19) "Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins," (Matthew 26:27-28) were to be understood literally, and thus the apostles passively consumed what would be His actual bloody flesh and blood that was given and shed in His crucifixion, despite the Law forbidding this and the protestations of Peter to violating dietary laws.

For nowhere is anything taught about transubstantiation, of a Christ who was "really" bodily Him while appearing as an inanimate object that would even scientifically test as being nothing more than that, contrary to the Incarnation.

Or whether the apostles were given secret instruction on basic transubstantiation (Jn. 6 is not it) which novel extra-Scriptural theory was somehow not deemed worthy of inclusion in Scripture by the Holy Spirit, or even that the apostles all came to this conclusion on their own, so that they could violate the Law without a word of protest or questioning.

Or whether, being Jews who knew the Scriptures, they recognized this as another of the many uses of metaphorical language regarding food, like as David employed in calling the water obtaining at the risk of the lives of men that of being their blood, and pouring it out unto the Lord. Or of men being bread for Israel, or of they being food for others, or eating the word of God. Etc.

And thus, rather than spiritual life being obtained by consuming the elements at the Lord's supper, and with this being food by which believers are nourished and built up, it is by believing the word of the gospel message that one obtains spiritual life, and is nourished and built up by the word of God as being "milk" and "meat."

And that rather than being a central supreme daily ritual sacrifice for sins at the hands of clergy distinctively called "priests," it is at best only described as breaking of bread in Acts, without a word of clergy even officiating, and is not even described in the rest of the NT except merely as a "feast of charity" (Jude 1:12) and in 1 Corinthians.

Which does not interpret the words at issue as being the priestly Cath Eucharist, but of a communion of the body and blood of Christ akin to how pagans have fellowship with demons in their dedicatory feasts, and as showing the Lord's death by sharing a communal meal as the body of Christ bought by that blood, and thus doing so while ignoring others is to not actually not come together to eat the Lord's supper. See here.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Sacred Scripture forbids contacting a medium and using them to summon a departed soul for the purpose of two-way dialogue. That is necromancy.

Now, my observation has been that Protestants want to redefine necromancy to mean something other than that. This is fairly common with a lot of Protestantism: Change the definition of a word, impute the incorrect definition onto traditional Christians and then call them "unbiblical".

With respect, I refuse to allow that. Necromancy has a specific meaning in Sacred Scripture (not to mention the dictionary!). Put simply, I take exception to you redefining words to suit your man-made Protestant traditions, castigating me and my Church in the process.
You are responding to a post by someone else. I did not invoke the command against necromancy nor do i need to, for it is you who impute the incorrect definition of a word, making prayer into asking/beseeching created beings in Heaven, which none of the words for prayer (mainly proseuchē or proseuchomai in Greek, which always denotes spiritual communication to Heaven, and which nowhere is the addressee anything but God) are used for.

Only by imputing to created being that which in Scripture is God's position and power can you justify your eisegesis, which common Cath practice is nowhere exampled or taught except by pagans. Give it up!
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I take it that we have a somewhat different understanding of Prayer.
Indeed you do, with Scripture that is. All you need to do is find one example among the approx. 200 prayers to Heaven in Scripture where any believer prayed to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, or justify how the Holy Spirit would not provide any despite this being a most basic common Cath practice, and there were plenty of created beings in Heaven to pray to.

If you cannot, stop condemning yourself by insisting on reading into Scripture what you can only wish was there.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Correction:
not today but tomorrow because I already ate.

You can only drink fluids: water (H2O) only. Alcoholic veberages are not included.

COULD WE ALL TOGETHER PRAY FOR THE TRUTH INSTEAD OF BICKERING HERE?
I only drank liquids yesterday till about 9pm, but i do not need to fast to know that Scripture simply does not teach the Cath Eucharist any more then i need to fast more to know it does not teach praying to created beings in Heaven, among many other Cath inventions.
 
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Philip_B

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The Sacraments are a privileged way in which nature is taken up by God to become a means of mediating supernatural life. Through our worship of God, we are invited to embrace the world on a different plane. Water, oil, fire and colours are taken up in all their symbolic power and incorporated in our act of praise. The hand that blesses is an instrument of God’s love and a reflection of the closeness of Jesus Christ, who came to accompany us on the journey of life. Water poured over the body of a child in Baptism is a sign of new life. Encountering God does not mean fleeing from this world or turning our back on nature. This is especially clear in the spirituality of the Christian East. “Beauty, which in the East is one of the best loved names expressing the divine harmony and the model of humanity transfigured, appears everywhere: in the shape of a church, in the sounds, in the colours, in the lights, in the scents”. For Christians, all the creatures of the material universe find their true meaning in the incarnate Word, for the Son of God has incorporated in his person part of the material world, planting in it a seed of definitive transformation. “Christianity does not reject matter. Rather, bodiliness is considered in all its value in the liturgical act, whereby the human body is disclosed in its inner nature as a temple of the Holy Spirit and is united with the Lord Jesus, who himself took a body for the world’s salvation”. Pope Francis, Encyclical Letter Laudate Si (24 May 2015) - 235 and quoting John Paul II, Apostolic Letter Orientale Lumen (2 May 1995), 11: AAS 87 (1995), 757

I think it is sad that many of us have not read this document in full, not simply the press grab for the 20 second news segment. I believe it has much to teach us all, and I, for one who is not a Roman Catholic, find much of what he has to say about the East, about Sacraments and the Eucharist in particular refreshing, enlightening and helpful and hopeful (pages 66-68). It is possible to run a discussion on the sacraments as a reality TV style rerun of the reformation, or perhaps we might try with a little charity and love to reach back, to reach forward and to reach out and hear what we are really saying and who we are bearing witness to.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Frankly, I am surprised at the lack of respect for the Catholic Church. Even when I was Protestant, I still respected the Catholic and Orthodox Church as the first church.
The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have significant differences, no less than the power and infallibility of the pope, from which the Roman Bishops derived theirs, while as for the lack of respect, as a RC you are to be defending and promoting an elitist "one true church" which does not even hold Prot churches as worthy of properly being called "churches. and historically damned all who would not submit to the pope. Such elitist arrogance invites challenges and refutation, yet RCs take umbrage at such as if there were victims.
When someone starts calling the church set up by the Apostles,
Which assertion is merely begging the question, presuming the very thing that is not and cannot be established in comparison with the NT church.
Could it be that THEY are decieved and are working for the forces of darkness?
And just why can it not be that one examined the distinctive claims of Catholicism in the light of Scripture and found that Catholicism is substantially not there, and contrary to it?
I mean I can't see why anybody would want to drive people out of church.
]You mean you can't see why anybody would want to persuade people out of church that is not that of the NT, and has become as the gates of Hell for multitudes, and treats even proabortion, prpsodomite public figures as members in life and in death, and yet attacks conservative evangelicals?
The church that put together the council that voted on the Biblical Cannon of the Old and Mew Testament.
In reality, there was no indisputable canon for most of Rome's history, but scholarly disagreements over the canonicity (proper) of certain books continued down through the centuries and right into Trent, until it provided the first "infallible," indisputable canon — after the death of Luther.
 
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Philip_B

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Let us now sing the praises of famous men,
our ancestors in their generations.
The Lord apportioned to them great glory,
his majesty from the beginning.
Ecclesiasticus 44:1-2
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Jews are bound by the old covenant God made with Moses. I am a Christian so I have entered into the new covenant with Christ:

John3:16
16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

1 John 5:13-14
13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.


And what does this have to do with the topic you responded to?
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Let us now sing the praises of famous men,
our ancestors in their generations.
The Lord apportioned to them great glory,
his majesty from the beginning.
Ecclesiasticus 44:1-2
Which in Catholicism includes papal murderers, and to which murderers this applies: Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. (Luke 11:47)

In contrast are such Biblical great men as in Hebrews 11.
 
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Goatee

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@rturner76

We are not passing judgement, only Yahweh and Yeshua can do that.

We are just telling what we see. The pure facts.

Too many people confuse those 2 issues that are very different.

What we see are your fruits that are represented on what you write and what you discuss here so adamantly and also we see the errors because some have not taken to study the word of God but are paying too much attention to what other people have said and have not verified if it agrees to the word, to the truth.

The discussions here show that some have studied and are going in the right direction but others have decided that their approach is the correct one, so be it.

Act like a Berean, check what people say against the word, use your own brain and don't allow prescribed ideas to influence your mind.

It happened to me. I was a Catholic and I left the errors, BIG ERRORS, I became a Christian but I saw how they fight between the different denominations and I came with the answer that those that called themselves Christians could not be the body of Chist.

So now I only follow the word of Yahweh my father, my creator, my friend.

ARE YOU HIS FRIEND?

You left because you were weak. You could not carry the cross. You wanted an easier way!
 
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Goatee

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Christianity is still using many words of PAGAN origin.

Let's make a change for the best and use the correct ones.

Church should be CONGREGATION or ASSEMBLY.

Jesus should be Yeshua, He was a jew. Why call it Charles? Or Immanuel = God with us.

God should be Yahweh. His chosen people are the Jewish nation and He gave them His message on Hebrew. Not English.

Christ or Messiah should be Hamashiach.

The days of the week should be:
1st day, second day, ... 7th day or last day of week or the day of rest=sabbath or sabath.

The month:
Abib for the 1st month.
Then second, third, fourth ... twelveth.

September should be the seventh month = septa = seven
October = octave = eighth
November and December should be ninth and tenth respectively.

Easter is a pagan name and is not celebrated according to the word of Yahweh.

The Sabbath day is the day when Yeshua resurrected. Not Sunday which name pays respect to the sun and not the Son.

The year should start in March at the beginning of the Jewish year when Spring begins: Spring Equinox, March 20.

Are we following the right calendar? No way.

The Bible proves the right calendar and is not the moon calendar followed by the jews of today.

God created the calendar on the 4th day of His creation as we know it now but we are not following His instructions.

There has been deception since the beginning and we need to know HOW to discern the truth from a lie.

How?

Follow Yahweh's Manual for life:

HIS WORD, ONLY HIS WORD.

Waw!! You are really lost buddy
 
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Goatee

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Its a shame you dont understand Catholicism. But then again many people dont!

We are the original church. The Rock which others jumped from due to their weaknesses.

I know the CC is the true church of Christ. I am proud to be a Catholic and i know that our teachings are directly from God.

God bless you
 
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