The Real Presence-the Eucharist

Root of Jesse

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Protestants know the personal presence of Jesus, because they recognize Him as their personal Lord and Savior (a liturgical formula, by the way). But there is only one place where He is always completely present, and every Christian in the world knew it until the Protestant Reformation: in the Eucharist.
Christians worship Christ because He is God. Catholics worship the Eucharist because the Eucharist is Christ. Under the appearances of bread and wine, He is literally just as fully and truly and really and objectively present to the Catholic who adores Him there and who receives Him there in Holy Communion, as He was to His disciples in Palestine for three years. In fact, more so, until the Last Supper, when they too were privileged to eat His body and drink His blood and get Him inside themselves instead of just outside.

I think this is the most controversial of all the Catholic doctrines. It generated the most controversy and passion and war at the time of the Reformation. Read the history of the wars of the Reformation in primary sources and you will see this.

If Protestants are right, Catholics are the most ridiculous heretics and idolaters imaginable, worshipping bread and wine. Compared with the Eucharist, all the disputes about Church authority, Mary, Saints, Purgatory or Bible interpretation, or baptism, or predestination are almost trivial.

On the other hand, if Catholics are right, then Protestants are mission out on the most perfect, intimate, and complete union with their Lord that is possible in life. Christ is knocking at their door, and they're not opening it because they deny it is really He. They are like 1st-century Jews who rejected their God when He appeared to them in the flesh because they refused to believe that God would come in disguise; they didn't have the faith to see the invisible God in the visible human appearances. Hence, it is they who are the idolaters, being hung up on the physical, the creaturely.

I believe most other Catholic-Protestant issues have been negotiated and agreed on. Thoughts?
 

Inkfingers

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I believe most other Catholic-Protestant issues have been negotiated and agreed on. Thoughts?

Well, apart from the saints, and Mary, and the prayers of repetition... ;)

On the subject of the presence...where in the universe is God NOT fully present?
 
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Albion

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OK. Thoughts.

1. Believing Christ to be present...and "worshipping (the host)" are two different things (that were run together in your post, unfortunately).

2. You don't get to generalize about what "Protestants" say or believe about the Lord's Supper except that Protestants don't accept the doctrine of Transubstantiation and do not accept that Christ is sacrificed anew on the altar at every Mass.

If you want to take on the Lutheran POV, do that. If you want to take on the Anglican POV, do that. If it's the Church of the Brethren.... and so on.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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If Protestants are right, Catholics are the most ridiculous heretics and idolaters imaginable, worshipping bread and wine....

On the other hand, if Catholics are right, then
Then the NT church does not represent Catholcism, seeing as nowhere in the revelation of it (Acts onward) does the Holy Spirit show or teach of the Lord's supper being the central overarching sacrament as a sacrifice for sin at the hands of a distinctive class of believers distinctively called "priests," and which was eaten in order to obtain spiritual life.

Instead, it is only manifestly described in one of the many letters to the churches, and in which the Catholic Eucharist is not there.
I believe most other Catholic-Protestant issues have been negotiated and agreed on. Thoughts?

A few thoughts, yes, by God's grace:

 
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PeaceByJesus

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OK. Thoughts...
If you want to take on the Lutheran POV, do that. If you want to take on the Anglican POV, do that. If it's the Church of the Brethren.... and so on.

And apparently the "Real Presence" was originally an Anglican term, to describe their different theology. (patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/what-do-we-mean-by-the-real-presence)
 
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amadeois

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Wow, every institution creating their own things and not following the truth.

The word never mentions the word "sacrament."

A remembrance is done once a year.

The Real Presence? Another invention of a religious institution and not what Jesus expected.

Are all these institutions that believe to be the true church are the true church?

Far from it friends. The body of Christ is pure, perfect and today's church is pathetically SICK.

The true body does not FIGHT, it acts in accordance.

Every organization went away from the truth. Jesus said it on His message to the church of today: the Laodicean church.

He will spew them because they are lukewarm.

Also He advice us to buy 3 things FROM HIM.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY ARE?
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY MEAN?

DO YOU UNDERSTAND HIS WORD? ARE YOU INTERPRETING IT YOUR OWN WAY?

THAT'S THE WRONG APPROACH
 
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bbbbbbb

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Wow, every institution creating their own things and not following the truth.

The word never mentions the word "sacrament."
Reply
A remembrance is done once a year.

The Real Presence? Another invention of a religious institution and not what Jesus expected.

Are all these institutions that believe to be the true church are the true church?

Far from it friends. The body of Christ is pure, perfect and today's church is pathetically SICK.

The true body does not FIGHT, it acts in accordance.

Every organization went away from the truth. Jesus said it on His message to the church of today: the Laodicean church.

He will spew them because they are lukewarm.

Also He advice us to buy 3 things FROM HIM.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY ARE?
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY MEAN?

DO YOU UNDERSTAND HIS WORD? ARE YOU INTERPRETING IT YOUR OWN WAY?

THAT'S THE WRONG APPROACH

A remembrance can be done more or less than one year. We have annual remembrances such as the Fourth of July or the Fifth of May and centennial remembrances and bi-centennial remembrances, etc.

How often did Jesus tell His Apostles to remember Him in the breaking of bread and drinking of the cup?
 
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Standing Up

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there is only one place where He is always completely present, and every Christian in the world knew it until the Protestant Reformation

Amongst other Christians, don't forget the martyrs of Lyons. They went to their deaths denying they were eating human/divine flesh. So, your statement is incorrect.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God... They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes.
-- St. Ignatius (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110])

St. Ignatius was trained by St. John. Where did St. Ignatius get the above ideas if not from him?
 
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1213

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... Thoughts?

I think it would be best to remain in words that Jesus declared:

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
John 6:63

Truly, truly I tell you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death at all.”
John. 8:51
 
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SeventyOne

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On the other hand, if Catholics are right, then Protestants are mission out on the most perfect, intimate, and complete union with their Lord that is possible in life. Christ is knocking at their door, and they're not opening it because they deny it is really He. They are like 1st-century Jews who rejected their God when He appeared to them in the flesh because they refused to believe that God would come in disguise; they didn't have the faith to see the invisible God in the visible human appearances. Hence, it is they who are the idolaters, being hung up on the physical, the creaturely.

Even if the Catholics were right, there would be no scripture to back up the claim that Protestants that those who don't participate are rejecting God. That would be just another Catholic tradition imposed on such an action.

These assumptions also divide people into only Catholics and Protestants. There were believers being tortured and murdered for many years by the RCC prior to the reformation. They and their legacy would not be either Catholic or Protestant.
 
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Standing Up

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They are ashamed of the cross; they mock at the passion; they make a jest of the resurrection. They are the offspring of that spirit who is the author of all evil, who led Adam,10211021 Literally, “drove Adam out of.” by means of his wife, to transgress the commandment, who slew Abel by the hands of Cain, who fought against Job, who was the accuser of Joshua10221022 Zech. iii. 1. the son of Josedech, who sought to “sift the faith”10231023 Luke xxii. 31. of the apostles, who stirred up the multitude of the Jews against the Lord, who also now “worketh in the children of disobedience;10241024 Eph. ii. 2. from whom the Lord Jesus Christ will deliver us, who prayed that the faith of the apostles might not fail,10251025 Luke xxii. 32. not because He was not able of Himself to preserve it, but because He rejoiced in the pre-eminence of the Father. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and neither in private nor in public to talk with10261026 The reading is περί in the one case, and μετά in the other, though the latter meaning seems preferable. Most of the mss. of the longer recension read περί, as in the shorter. them; but to give heed to the law, and the prophets, and to those who have preached to you the word of salvation. But flee from all abominable heresies, and those that cause schisms, as the beginning of evils.
Letter to Smyrnians VII
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God... They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes.
-- St. Ignatius (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110])

St. Ignatius was trained by St. John. Where did St. Ignatius get the above ideas if not from him?

The belief that Ignatius was a student of St. John ultimately does not rest on any trustworthy evidence, and even students may differ from their masters, while most of what is attributed to Ignatius of Antioch is held to be spurious, and the authenticity of material within the seven letters held to be genuine is also subject to disputation.

Regardless, all must be subject to wholly-inspired Scripture, and the problem is that unless you hold to a false conception of Christ, this cannot be "the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins," for in contrast to the Eucharistic flesh of Christ, the flesh of the incarnated Christ looked like, felt like, and would taste and scientifically test as real human flesh.

And thus, in contrast to the Christ of 1st century Gnosticism, John stated, That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (1 John 1:1)

And it is this tangible flesh that the Lord referred to as "my body which is broken for you" (1 Corinthians 11:24) "my blood...which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28)

The NT Christians did not preach of an incarnated Divine Son of God that appeared as bread and wine or any other inanimate object, received by blind faith, by one which manifestly was God in human flesh. Thus John's emphasis on Christ as one who"came by water and blood." (1 John 5:6) A Christ which did not look, feel, like, and would taste and scientifically test as human would be as a false Christ as much as the phantom-type Christ of Gnosticism was.

Thus the flesh and blood referred to in the last supper as being broken and shed - and which, as resurrected, Thomas could see and feel with his fingers (and i believe would test as human flesh - was His manifestly real human flesh or else we have a Christ whose appearance does not correspond to what He physically is. While within Gnosticism you had the belief that Christ only looked corporeal but was not, in Catholicism you have the belief that the crucified Christ only looks, feels, tastes and would test as non-corporeal, but that He "really" is so (present whole and entire in His physical "reality," corporeally present, although not in the manner in which bodies are in a place. .." (Mysterium Fidei)

The only other explanation is that the words at issue in the Lord's supper are as metaphorical as David's in referring to drinking water being the blood of men, and thus pouring it out unto the Lord like a priestly offering, (2 Samuel 23:16-17) or men being referred to as "bread" for Israel, (Numbers 14:9) or the latter being eaten by enemies, (Psalms 14:4; 27:2) or the word of God being physically eaten, (Psalms 19:10; 119:103; Jeremiah 15:16) among other examples.

And which use corresponds to another statement attributed to Ignatius upon his death, “Allow me to become food for the wild beasts, through whose means it will be granted me to reach God. I am the wheat of God, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of Christ.” (Epistle to the Romans; emp. mine)

And which metaphorical use of food corresponds to the abundant use of metaphorical language in Johannine writings in inspired Scripture which the writer was familiar with, and which in turn is correspondent to the abundant use of metaphorical language in the OT.

And which metaphorical understanding is the only one which easily conflates with the totality of Scripture, and of John in particular, in which spiritual life is nowhere obtained by literally physically eating anything, but by effectually believing the gospel, and the word of God is said to be "milk" (1 Peter 2:2-3) and "meat," (Hebrews 5:12; cf. 1Co. 3:2) and what spiritually nourishes and builds up the body. (1Tim. 4:6; Acts 20:32)

And in almost every chapter before John 6 then John uses figurative language, from the lamb (John 1:29) or temple (John 2:19) or salvific serpent (John 3:14,15) referring to Christ, or water for eternal life, (John 4:14) or doing the Father's will to be "meat," (John 4:34; cf. Mathew 4:4)

And with the latter showing how he "lived" by the Father, which is how He taught believers are to live by Him in John 6:57.

In reality, the Catholic is faced with an immense difficulty in justifying his Eucharistic theology, for the issue is not whether the post-apostolic church in extra-scriptural literature supports a literalistic view of the words at issue in the Lord's supper, but whether this corresponds to Scripture, especially in the recorded life and teaching of the NT church (Acts onward, which writings are interpretive of the gospels).

And thus the Catholic must show that the record and teachings of the NT church support the Catholic literalistic view that "take eat, this is my body which is broken for you" (1 Corinthians 11:24) and "my blood...which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Matthew 26:28) means that they were literally consuming the "real" body and blood of Christ, but that it was in a form that does not correspond to the manifest incarnated body and blood of Christ, but refers to an invisible, undetectable change in "substance," which explanation requires Neoplatonic thought and Aristotelian metaphysics to justify.

And that this means that this change is only instrumentally effected by a separate sacerdotal class of believers distinctively called "priests," and offered as a sacrifice for sin, with this being their primary distinct active function, and which is eaten by believers in order to obtain spiritual life.

And that this was a formal ritual and the supreme central overarching daily sacrament of the NT church, "the source and summit of the Christian life" (CCC 1324) “the medicine of immortality, the antidote for death, and the food that makes us live for ever in Jesus Christ," (CCC 1415) "a kind of consummation of the spiritual life, and in a sense the goal of all the sacraments," (Mysterium Fidei, Encyclical of Pope Paul VI, 1965) through which “the work of our redemption is carried out,” (CCC 1364)

However, not only does Scripture not known of an incarnated Christ who looked, felt and would taste as an inanimate object (that He did so as per Catholicism is what must be established), or of obtaining spiritual life by literally physically consuming something, but nowhere is there even a separate sacerdotal class of believers distinctively called "priests," let alone even one example of them conducting the Lord's supper, or instructions to do so in this record of the NT church.

Nor therein is there any discussion, discourse or manner of explanation on the basic issue of transubstantiation, despite its critical importance in Catholicism, and the material given to actual issues of like importance in the NT record and teachings of the NT church.

Instead of a separate sacerdotal class of believers distinctively called "priests" whose primary active function is that of offering the Lord's supper as a sacrifice for sin, we have presbuteros (senior/elder) or episkopos (superintendent/overseer) - and which, contrary to Ignatius, refers to one office (Titus 1:5-7; Acts 20:17,28; cf. Acts 14:23; Phil. 1:1) - whose primary active function is that of preaching the word, which is how they fed the flock as charged, (Acts 20:28; 1Co. 1:17; 2Tim. 4:2 1Pt. 5:2) with the "milk and "meat" of the word, which nourished and builds them up, as showed.

And instead of the Lord's supper being and the supreme central overarching daily ritual sacrament of the NT church, the books of Acts merely mentions a daily breaking of bread, (Acts 2:42; 20:7) "with gladness and singleness of heart," (Acts 2:46) and with the only particular mention of leadership in this being that of the apostles stating it was not their particular function to physically feed the flock but instructed that deacons be elected and ordained for this. (Acts 6:1-4)

After that, aside from the mention of Jude to the communal Christian "feast of charity," (Jude 1:12) the Lords supper is only manifestly described in just one epistle. And in which the fellowship of the body and blood of Christ corresponds to the fellowship idolators have with the object of their dedicatory feasts, which fellowship was not by consuming the flesh and blood of the object of their worship, but eating as a body in signifying unity with such in devotion to them. (1Corithians 10:14-22)

Likewise in the next chapter the body of Christ which is not being discerned is that of the church, for they were neglecting some for who Christ died, feasting in the communal feast of charity which was to signify communion with the Lord who purchased them with His sinless shed blood, while others were left hungry, completely contrary to what they were supposed to be remembering/showing! (1Co. 17-34) The next chapter also focuses on the church as he body of Christ.

Besides these, and in contrast to the constant mention and centrality of the Catholic Eucharistic, the Lord's supper is not mentioned at all. It is not recommended as a means of grace, nor partaking of it commended, nor neglect of it censored, despite the extensive teachings, exhortations, censures and commendations in the record and teachings of the NT church.

In contrast, it is hearing and believing the preaching of the word of God that one is saved by and builds one up as a means of grace, and doing so commended, and neglect of it censored. All of which is confirmatory of the metaphorical understanding of Jn. 6, that it is ingesting and feeding off of the word of God, and living by it that is being taught. For as the Lord said, "As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me," (John 6:57) which living He said was by every word of God, (Mt. 4:4) and which He said was His "meat." (Jn. 4:34) "For the flesh profiteth nothing as far as eating is concerned, but "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63)

Now to do hear and live by the Word better.
 
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amadeois

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In remembrance of me.

"As oft as ye drink it, ..."

"Okasis" used only three times in the bible. 2 times in Cotinthians.1 Corinthians 11:25 refering to the blood.

The gospel writers never mentioned "as oft as ye drink it"

Paul writes Corinthians and he is not an apostle and was not there as an eye witness.

Something smells fishy. Two of the eyewitnesses do not mention the word "okasis."

Why?

Is the Lord testing us or somebody added that word?

It happened with Mark 16:9 through 20. Those verses are NOT in the older papyrus.

Also verse 16:9 has been very controversial and has planted the idea that Jesus was resurrected early on the first day of the week. A very clever maneuver by Satan to have us believe something different from the Truth.

It should read:

Now when Jesus was risen,
early the first day of the week...

Jesus rested from His work of REDEMPTION on the Sabbath day exactly at the ninth hour when He gave up the ghost.

If He only died, His goal would had not been accomplished. We need birth, death, resurrection and ascencion.
 
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thecolorsblend

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The belief that Ignatius was a student of St. John ultimately does not rest on any trustworthy evidence, and even students may differ from their masters, while most of what is attributed to Ignatius of Antioch is held to be spurious, and the authenticity of material within the seven letters held to be genuine is also subject to disputation.
Let's say that's all true. Let's say that everything credited to St. Ignatius was not actually written by St. Ignatius in the early 2nd century.

Why do the other Church Fathers agree with him about the Real Presence? Even if St. Ignatius was mistaken (which you have yet to demonstrate), his "error" was pretty widespread. How did that happen, I wonder?

Regardless, all must be subject to wholly-inspired Scripture,
Sola Scriptura is your limitation. Please don't make it mine. Thanks!
 
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Grafted In

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I have the real presence of Christ in me, the hope of Glory.
There are some who speak only of the bread and wine, over and over and over. ...not once ever mentioning that God dwells within them.
Why?
 
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Root of Jesse

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Well, apart from the saints, and Mary, and the prayers of repetition... ;)
Try to stay on topic...please
On the subject of the presence...where in the universe is God NOT fully present?
But His presence in the Eucharist is unique, and not found anywhere but in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches. It's why we build great monuments to God around the Eucharist.
 
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Root of Jesse

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OK. Thoughts.

1. Believing Christ to be present...and "worshipping (the host)" are two different things (that were run together in your post, unfortunately).
We don't worship the host. We worship God in the host.
2. You don't get to generalize about what "Protestants" say or believe about the Lord's Supper except that Protestants don't accept the doctrine of Transubstantiation and do not accept that Christ is sacrificed anew on the altar at every Mass.
But I do get to correct you when you're wrong. Christ is not sacrificed anew at every Mass...Protestants don't believe in the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist. Does that suffice???
If you want to take on the Lutheran POV, do that. If you want to take on the Anglican POV, do that. If it's the Church of the Brethren.... and so on.
Nope, it's Catholics, and everyone else. And I include Orthodox in 'Catholics'.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Then the NT church does not represent Catholcism, seeing as nowhere in the revelation of it (Acts onward) does the Holy Spirit show or teach of the Lord's supper being the central overarching sacrament as a sacrifice for sin at the hands of a distinctive class of believers distinctively called "priests," and which was eaten in order to obtain spiritual life.

Instead, it is only manifestly described in one of the many letters to the churches, and in which the Catholic Eucharist is not there.


A few thoughts, yes, by God's grace:

Actually, the NT is full of references to eating the Lord's Supper. God didn't tell us that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, and then not give us a way to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

By the way, we don't eat human flesh, hence, no cannibalism. Also, it is noted that there is dissent about what the Eucharist is. Those disciples in John 6 didn't want to believe Jesus, either. Yet he persisted in what he told them, even deepened the term he used. The fact is that it was a passover meal, and at the first Passover, the Hebrews sacrificed and ate a lamb, and painted his blood on their doorways. Had they not eaten the lamb, they wouldn't have been saved. We Catholics follow instructions.
 
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