My Abraham Challenge

[doubtingmerle]

It's already been explained to you in simple terms why God asked Abraham to kill Issac.

Yes, I see where you said God did it to test Abraham. Understood.

The question is whether the act that God is said to have commanded Abraham to set out to do is wrong. Is it wrong to slay your son as a sacrifice to God? I think it is. Strangely, I can't get you to commit one way or the other on that question.

If you agree with me that slaying children as a sacrifice to God is wrong, then I will want to know why it is acceptable to command people to set out to do something wicked as a test of their obedience, and then reward them for setting out to do that evil thing.

If instead you say it is OK to slay children as a sacrifice to God, then I would like to know how you arrive at that morality.

Either way your argument is defeated. If you say slaying children as a sacrifice to God is wrong, then you will need to explain why it is good to test people to see if they will set out to do an evil act, and then praise them if they set out to do evil. If you say slaying children is right, then we would like you to justify your morality.

So if you would only take the time to answer that question about whether slaying children as a sacrifice to God is wrong, you would see the problem. But alas, you avoid the question.

 

[-57]

Yes, I see where you said God did it to test Abraham. Understood.

The question is whether the act that God is said to have commanded Abraham to set out to do is wrong. Is it wrong to slay your son as a sacrifice to God? I think it is. Strangely, I can't get you to commit one way or the other on that question.

If God told..commanded... me to slay my son..it would not be wrong.

My commitment has always been that.

 

[doubtingmerle]

If God told..commanded... me to slay my son..it would not be wrong.

My commitment has always been that.

Ok, so in your morality it is not wrong to slay your son as a sacrifice to God if God commands it.

And this apply to everything? Would you murder, rape, pillage, torture innocent people, fly a plane full of people into a building, set off a nuke, go on a jihad, do anything that God commands? And the mere fact that God commands it, all of this becomes moral? I think not.

It is hard to distinguish your views from the view that might makes right. Murdering, raping, pillaging and torturing innocent people can hardly be considered moral by any standard of morality. A God who commands such things would surely be immoral, by any decent standard of morality. So even if your God went against all decent standards of morality, you would call his way right, simply because he is the most powerful? Is there any other reason that can justify what you say, other than you suggest we blindly follow the one with the most power?

OK, suppose all that is true, that God is the most powerful and if he commands burnt sacrifices, that therefore it becomes "moral" to kill children and burn their bodies in a sacrifice to God. The next question is how you would ever know that you were indeed hearing from this all powerful God. Could it not be some kind of impostor that you hear?

Wouldn't you be bummed if you think you hear God telling you to sacrifice your son, so you kill him, and then find out you had been conned?

And wouldn't Abraham have been bummed if he had killed Isaac and then found out he had been conned by an impostor claiming to be God?

So even if Abraham subscribed to the idea that whatever God commands he must do, how could he possibly know that the voice he was hearing was indeed God?

So again, I say no to ever killing our sons as a sacrifice to God. I think it is immoral.

 

[-57]

Ok, so in your morality it is not wrong to slay your son as a sacrifice to God if God commands it.

And this apply to everything? Would you murder, rape, pillage, torture innocent people, fly a plane full of people into a building, set off a nuke, go on a jihad, do anything that God commands? And the mere fact that God commands it, all of this becomes moral? I think not.

You take a biblical event that happened for a purpose...and the purpose was explained in the bible...and you try to demonize it. You compare it to flying a plane into a building. You kinda make me sick.

 

[HitchSlap]

If God told..commanded... me to slay my son..it would not be wrong.

My commitment has always been that.

My worldview precludes me from killing my son, no matter who commands it.

 

[HitchSlap]

You take a biblical event that happened for a purpose...and the purpose was explained in the bible...and you try to demonize it. You compare it to flying a plane into a building. You kinda make me sick.

Yep, people do all manner of insane acts to please their deities.

 

[doubtingmerle]

You compare it to flying a plane into a building. You kinda make me sick.

No sir, I did not compare it to flying a plane into a building.

We are dealing with your statement that you would kill your son if God commanded you to. It seems natural to ask you if you would do anything else God asked. Rape? Pillage? Fly a plane into a building? But apparently we will get no answer to that question. If you will do some things God commands but not others, we would like to know how you decide how far you will go. But apparently we will not get that answer.

Also we would like to know if there is anything that could convince you that a voice telling you to kill your son really was God. Which is a problem for Abraham. Shouldn't his immediate concern be that somehow this was not really God speaking?

 

[-57]

My worldview precludes me from killing my son, no matter who commands it.

Perhaps thats because your world view says that if you killed your son...poof...he's gone. There is no afterlife for you to meet up or no God to restore life.

To your world view, I say no thanks.

 

[-57]

No sir, I did not compare it to flying a plane into a building.

We are dealing with your statement that you would kill your son if God commanded you to. It seems natural to ask you if you would do anything else God asked. Rape? Pillage? Fly a plane into a building? But apparently we will get no answer to that question. If you will do some things God commands but not others, we would like to know how you decide how far you will go. But apparently we will not get that answer.

Also we would like to know if there is anything that could convince you that a voice telling you to kill your son really was God. Which is a problem for Abraham. Shouldn't his immediate concern be that somehow this was not really God speaking?

You're not dodging this. You compared it to flying a plane into a building or rape. As i said, your comment was sick.

Just for the record the voice Abrahan heard was God...or did you forget?

 

[HitchSlap]

Perhaps thats because your world view says that if you killed your son...poof...he's gone. There is no afterlife for you to meet up or no God to restore life.

To your world view, I say no thanks.

My worldview precludes murder and human sacrifice.

 

[-57]

Yep, people do all manner of insane acts to please their deities.

Like feeding the poor...clothing the naked....building houses in 3rd world countries..digging wells

Once again you atheist make me sick trying to demonize people with a faith in God.

 

[HitchSlap]

Like feeding the poor...clothing the naked....building houses in 3rd world countries..digging wells

Once again you atheist make me sick trying to demonize people with a faith in God.

Seems I've struck a nerve? You seem upset that I have a higher morality than yours.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Folks that are reading this, if you feel certain that you are hearing God telling you to kill your son as a sacrifice to God, do not do it. I repeat. Do not kill your son. That is wrong. Even if you hear a voice that you are certain must be God, do not do it. I beg you, do not listen to what -57 says he would do in that situation.

You're not dodging this. You compared it to flying a plane into a building or rape.

No, I did not.

I asked you a simple question. You said that you would kill your son if God told you to do it. Would you also fly a plane into a building if God told you to do it?

Just for the record the voice Abrahan heard was God.

That is what Genesis claims. But how did Abraham know it was God? How could he possibly know it was God?

 

[danny ski]

What a load of manure this thread is becoming. The lessons of the Abraham's story are many. One of them is that Gd does not require, need nor desire human sacrifice. Another conclusion is that there are limits to obedience. Obedience cannot be blind and it cannot violate the Law. Human sacrifice, and sacrifice of children in particular, is an abomination.

 

[miknik5]

God tells Abraham to offer his only son Isaac on an altar.

Years later we see Isaac having children and living a good life.

And in fact, Paul even says ...

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

What went wrong?

Nothing

 

[miknik5]

The "test" was in service to us. It was simply a visible reenactment foreshadowing THE ONE and ONLY PROMISED SON spoken of from the beginning

GOD, knowing our limited humanity hid HIS SON in HIS WORD providing us with visible signs and shadows which spoke of and pointed us to CHRIST. Every WORD of scripture in Lower signs and representations pointed to the higher and hidden spiritual truths found in CHRIST.

The testimony of JESUS....IS...The spirit of prophecy

Abraham's named and promised son, Isaac was never really THE PROMISED SON GOD was pointing us to

GOD, HIMSELF, will provide the lamb

HE did

 

[miknik5]

No one should EVER repeat this "test". It was tonpiint us to CHRIST. GOD will never call us to do this EVER!

 

[miknik5]

What a load of manure this thread is becoming. The lessons of the Abraham's story are many. One of them is that Gd does not require, need nor desire human sacrifice. Another conclusion is that there are limits to obedience. Obedience cannot be blind and it cannot violate the Law. Human sacrifice, and sacrifice of children in particular, is an abomination.

Abraham's test was a reenactment in lower visible signs pointing us to THE ONE AND ONLY acceptable offering before the throne of GOD's GRACE

Abraham may not have fully understood what he was called to do then

But he does now. And he knows that this was simply in service to all who would look back and bring robremrmbrancd thst all along GOD through HIS WORD by providing sign upon sign throughout HIS WORD was pointing us to HIS SON

 

[doubtingmerle]

What a load of manure this thread is becoming. The lessons of the Abraham's story are many. One of them is that Gd does not require, need nor desire human sacrifice. Another conclusion is that there are limits to obedience. Obedience cannot be blind and it cannot violate the Law. Human sacrifice, and sacrifice of children in particular, is an abomination.

Offering children as sacrifice is surely evil. But Genesis 22:16-17 praises Abraham for setting out to do just that:

By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
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I don't think the creator of the universe would have honored Abraham for setting out to sacrifice his son as Genesis says. Do you agree?

 

[doubtingmerle]

The "test" was in service to us. It was simply a visible reenactment foreshadowing THE ONE and ONLY PROMISED SON spoken of from the beginning

How does that make the story clearer? If it is wrong to offer one's son up as a sacrifice to God, why is it write to offer Jesus as a sacrifice to God? Wouldn't God be able to forgive us even if people had not killed Jesus?