My Abraham Challenge

[doubtingmerle]

let me simplify it. It was a game of chicken with a predictable outcome.

And God lost the game of chicken, because he backed out on the game before Abraham did?

What would have happened if God had not chickened out?

 

[doubtingmerle]

God tells Abraham to offer his only son Isaac on an altar.

Years later we see Isaac having children and living a good life.

And in fact, Paul even says ...

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

What went wrong?

Suppose the kids in a local college fraternity ask a new pledge to take a rifle and take a sniper shot at the dean as he walks into the office. The pledge sets up in a tower ready to shoot, but at the last minute, as the dean arrives, the guys come in and stop him, and announce that his willingness to kill proves he will be a loyal friend. How do you react to this? I think you would be outraged that this would go on. You would not say, "What went wrong" as you have said in this thread, and many times in another thread. You would not say the dean is still alive so nothing was wrong. You would not praise those who based friendship on a willingness to murder.

Willingness to commit murder of a child in a sacrifice to God is not a virtue.

 

[doubtingmerle]

The OP assumes that Abraham was going to sacrifice his son. That Gd was testing him, again. It's a compelling argument for those who read the story of Abraham superficially. And while it is true that Abraham obeyed the command, it is also plainly clear that no human sacrifice was ever going to take place.

No, that is not clear to me at all.

Gen 22:10 says, "And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son." To arrive at your interpretation you need to insert words into this verse, such as, "And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife pretending he was going to slay his son." Gen 22:10 simply does not say that.

So no, it is not just my assumption that Genesis 22 says Abraham was going to kill his son. Genesis 22 actually says so.

 

[danny ski]

No, that is not clear to me at all.

Gen 22:10 says, "And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son." To arrive at your interpretation you need to insert words into this verse, such as, "And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife pretending he was going to slay his son." Gen 22:10 simply does not say that.

So no, it is not just my assumption that Genesis 22 says Abraham was going to kill his son. Genesis 22 actually says so.

Genesis 22 does not stand alone, it does not exist in a vacuum. You read a verse and think it is incomplete. I read the WHOLE story of Abraham's relationship with Gd and see a relationship of trust, generosity and respect. Like Abraham, not for a moment I think that there is even a remote possibility of any threat.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

LOL! A game of chicken may be questionable. But. A game of chicken where the outcome is established beforehand is certainly not.

Not to mention, completely pointless and not at all described as such in the story.

Abraham didn't know the outcome and Isaac most certainly didn't.
For all they knew, Isaac was gonna die and Abraham would the one wielding the knife.

 

[danny ski]

Not to mention, completely pointless and not at all described as such in the story.

Abraham didn't know the outcome and Isaac most certainly didn't.
For all they knew, Isaac was gonna die and Abraham would the one wielding the knife.

In view of Genesis 17 what other outcome could've there been? Either Abraham trusted Gd or not. Which one is it?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

In view of Genesis 17 what other outcome could've there been? Either Abraham trusted Gd or not. Which one is it?

I'm not seeing anything in there that states, or even hints, that Abraham knew that nobody was going to die.

Perhaps you can point out a specific verse.

 

[danny ski]

I'm not seeing anything in there that states, or even hints, that Abraham knew that nobody was going to die.

Perhaps you can point out a specific verse.

17 19. If Issac dies, he cannot have offsprings, therefore, no everlasting covenant. Gd made a promise to Abraham regarding Issac. There's no way he could've been sacrificed.

 

[Chesterton]

Yes, that is my opinion on the matter.

And I can honestly state that that opinion is morally superior to the opposite.

Sure, you can honestly state anything. I might honestly disagree. Try and prove your opinion rationally.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Genesis 22 does not stand alone, it does not exist in a vacuum. You read a verse and think it is incomplete. I read the WHOLE story of Abraham's relationship with Gd and see a relationship of trust, generosity and respect. Like Abraham, not for a moment I think that there is even a remote possibility of any threat.

Wait. The Bible says Abraham took his knife to slay Isaac, but you don't thing Abraham was a killer because he was such a nice guy?

Genesis 22:10 says Abraham took his knife to slay Isaac. Do you or do you not believe Abraham took his knife to slay Isaac?

And oh yes, regarding the fact that Abraham was such a nice guy, are you forgetting that the previous chapter describes how Abraham turned Hagar and his other son Ishmael out into the dessert to die of thirst. What kind of man would send his son out into the dessert to die of thirst? That's hardly the making of a gentleman.

 

[Grafted In]

Which conclusion exactly did I come to that was false? It seemed to me that I was just saying what Genesis 22 said. If I come to the "true conclusion" about Genesis 22 what will that conclusion be?

It doesn't make sense to me for you to argue that others are wrong, if you yourself are not willing to give your interpretation.

I gave my interpretation. You cannot recieve it without The Holy Ghost.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Abraham believed God would provide a sacrifice. He believed God would stop him and that Issac's life spared.
In verse 4 of Genesis 22 he told his 2 servants that he and the boy would be back.
He was walking in faith and God rewarded him richly.

The point is that Genesis 22 says God commanded Abraham to kill his son as a sacrifice to God. Do you believe it is wrong to command somebody to kill his son as a sacrifice to God?

The point is that Genesis 22:10 says Abraham took his knife to slay his son. Do you believe it is wrong to take your knife to slay your son as a sacrifice to God?

If you heard a voice like Abraham did, telling you, Grafted In, to kill your son, would you set out to kill your son? Would you take your knife to kill your son, as Abraham is said to have done?

If frat boys would command a pledge to set out to kill the dean, and the pledge went ahead and set up the ambush, expecting he would be stopped before he actually pulled the trigger, would it be right for the pledge to point his loaded, ready gun at the dean from his sniper position with his finger on the trigger?

This stuff isn't rocket science, Grafted In. It is wrong to kill your son as a sacrifice to God.

 

[danny ski]

Wait. The Bible says Abraham took his knife to slay Isaac, but you don't thing Abraham was a killer because he was such a nice guy?

Genesis 22:10 says Abraham took his knife to slay Isaac. Do you or do you not believe Abraham took his knife to slay Isaac?

And oh yes, regarding the fact that Abraham was such a nice guy, are you forgetting that the previous chapter describes how Abraham turned Hagar and his other son Ishmael out into the dessert to die of thirst. What kind of man would send his son out into the dessert to die of thirst? That's hardly the making of a gentleman.

Wait. The Bible says Abraham took his knife to slay Isaac, but you don't thing Abraham was a killer because he was such a nice guy?

Genesis 22:10 says Abraham took his knife to slay Isaac. Do you or do you not believe Abraham took his knife to slay Isaac?

And oh yes, regarding the fact that Abraham was such a nice guy, are you forgetting that the previous chapter describes how Abraham turned Hagar and his other son Ishmael out into the dessert to die of thirst. What kind of man would send his son out into the dessert to die of thirst? That's hardly the making of a gentleman.

The story of Abraham is a didactic text. I can't help it if you don't know how to read it.

 

[KWCrazy]

The point is that Genesis 22 says God commanded Abraham to kill his son as a sacrifice to God. Do you believe it is wrong to command somebody to kill his son as a sacrifice to God?

The point is that Genesis 22:10 says Abraham took his knife to slay his son. Do you believe it is wrong to take your knife to slay your son as a sacrifice to God?

Many things do not make sense to the unbeliever.
Consider that the Bible is the word of an all knowing and timeless God.
The sacrifice of Abraham's only son is a test of Abraham's obedience to God, but it's also the foreshadowing of God sacrificing His only son for the sins of man. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. You didn't sacrifice what was infirmed, you sacrificed what was perfect. Isaac was Abraham's only son and only heir. He didn't know that God would stop him, but he trusted the Lord. In this the most difficult task a man could take, he remained loyal to the Lord and would have completed the sacrifice had not God's angel stayed his hand. Later, God would not stay the hand of man in the sacrifice of Jesus.

To understand the sacrifice of Jesus, you have to understand the sacrifice of Isaac. If you understand neither, then you have no understanding of the consequence of sin and why man's rebellion against God separates man from His presence. Sin is not a small thing to God. Nothing sinful may be in his presence, so a sinful man cannot and will not enter the kingdom of Heaven. Fortunately, the debt of your sin was paid for with the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ. You don't have to kill your own son, just accept the sacrifice of God's son.

 

[Chesterton]

What went wrong?

FAQ for you: Has anyone met the challenge? What exactly was the challenge?

 

[Grafted In]

The point is that Genesis 22 says God commanded Abraham to kill his son as a sacrifice to God. Do you believe it is wrong to command somebody to kill his son as a sacrifice to God?

The point is that Genesis 22:10 says Abraham took his knife to slay his son. Do you believe it is wrong to take your knife to slay your son as a sacrifice to God?

If you heard a voice like Abraham did, telling you, Grafted In, to kill your son, would you set out to kill your son? Would you take your knife to kill your son, as Abraham is said to have done?

If frat boys would command a pledge to set out to kill the dean, and the pledge went ahead and set up the ambush, expecting he would be stopped before he actually pulled the trigger, would it be right for the pledge to point his loaded, ready gun at the dean from his sniper position with his finger on the trigger?

This stuff isn't rocket science, Grafted In. It is wrong to kill your son as a sacrifice to God.

Doubtingmerle, all I can do is refer you again to my earlier posts. You are arguing from a position of no Spiritual understanding and no one who is saved can satisfy your curiosity.

I will add that if you repent (that is agree with God that you are sinful and turn to Him and accept the perfect sacrifice of Jesus to cleans you ) you will see that the Scriptures you focus on to convince Christian of their foolish mindset, you will be filled with The Holy Spirit and then you will understand why your efforts to "convert" Christians to atheism is foolishness.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Co. 2:14 KJV

Short of that you will become disinterested in your efforts to "reason" with believers.
We are in this world, but we are not of this world. We have the Kingdom of God within us and so can you.
Consider praying to God, asking Him to reveal His Son, Jesus Christ. Now is the time. Today is the day you can join us in His Kingdom on earth. Then the questions you ask will begin to answer themselves because you will have your creator living within you, teaching you about the things of The Spirit. You can know that Jesus Christ died just for you. You will find that the secrets hidden in the bible from non-believers will then begin to be
revealed to you.
It won't happen all at once, though salvation will, but your understanding will grow every time you read Scripture and every time you fellowship with other believer.
It is just that simple, Merle. Repent of sin, believe the Gospel and you will recieve the promise of the indwelling of The Holy Spirit. He will begin right away to help you understand the things of God as well as help you to be set free of the sins that hold you hostage.
God is waiting anxiously to save you and share His love with you. Repent and the angels in heaven will shout and sing and dance with joy that Jesus has written your name in The Book if Life.
Don't turn away. Today is the day....now is the time.

Bill

 

[-57]

God: "Hey, kill your son for me"
Abraham: "but...he's my son"
God: "I told you you would have descendants... so if not him, you'll get other children"
Abraham: "ow, okay then... Hey Isaac, come here for a second, I want to show you something...."


So, how is this better again?

Your post makes no sense because God told Adam the descendents would be through Issac.

 

[-57]

Don't change the topic.

btw: also extremely dishonest of you to take that route. You know perfectly well that "pro-choices" make a distinction between humans that are born versus the unborn. And even in the "unborn" category, it's not all the same. I, for example, don't know any "pro-choicers" who would say that an 8-month pregnancy is the equivalent of a 2-week pregnancy.

So, in other words, whatever disagreement you might have with pro-choices concerning the unborn, it is irrelevant here in a discussion about a human sacrifice of a human that is several years old already.

I haven't looked at the rules but I would imagine a discussion about killing babies at the alter of selfism is not allowed.

 

[-57]

If you don't agree that "moral" actions are actions that benefit the overall well-being of sentient beings, then I don't what you are talking about, when you speak about "morality".

Didn't Hitler believe what he was doing was moral?

 

[-57]

From my sense of right and wrong, and by thinking about the consequences of actions.

Where do your morals come from? Let me guess. You subscribe to the idea that might makes right, so the mightiest being in the universe makes the rules, and whatever he decides is "moral". Is that where your morals come from?

In that case, what happens if the most powerful being in the universe asks you to murder your children on an alter as a sacrifice to him. Is that then moral? I think not.

You forgot, God is sovereign.

It's already been explained to you in simple terms why God asked Abraham to kill Issac.