To whom and why God gave the Sabbaths?

[bugkiller]

OK, so I misunderstood the way it was written. Pretty sure that isn't the first time somebody misunderstood somebody else on the internet.



What have I possibly stated that would make you wonder if I have any idea how much he loves us? You know, in what is slowing becoming a rant against me, I will tell you this. It is the feasts that reveal ALL of the work of Messiah. He didn't come just to address sin and eternal life Bob, his mission has MANY FACETS and Christianity remains stuck in first gear, focusing only on sin and eternal life.. either ignoring or misunderstanding the other aspects of his work. I will just give you one example and when I ask this question, just be honest with yourself. Don't blow over this just so you can fire back... we have enough of that in the faith. I am just a brother sharing a piece of information meant to edify.

Yeshua was the Passover Lamb. As the Passover Lamb, his work addressed the sin of the world... true or false?

The answer is false. The Pesach, the Passover Lamb, was not a sin sacrifice. His work as the sin sacrifice is addressed in what today is, Yom Kippur. THAT is a sacrifice that addressed the sin of his people. The Pesach was not dealing with sin and didn't magically start dealing with sin. It has a specific purpose and he ALSO came to address that purpose (and a number of others). I won't say now what it was... this SHOULD give you something you might WANT to study.



No Bob, it embodies the rest of the commandments. He said it Himself... ALL THE LAW and ALL THE PROPHETS hang on loving God and loving neighbor. That doesn't mean AT ALL that ALL THE LAW and ALL THE PROPHETS are replaced with those two... it means those two sum up all the rest. Why don't we steal? Because that would oppose loving neighbor. Why don't we drink blood? Because that is what those who served pagan gods did which stands opposed to loving God. God called His commandments eternal and God does not change. He didn't put out the covenant with Israel at Sinai and then realize that He erred and had to come up with a better way... I have heard pastors teach this. I am sure you don't believe that, you are a sharp guy. But in the end, if God calls something eternal and He Himself exists outside of time, then He knows if it really is eternal or not and won't call something eternal that isn't.



I believe we are Israel Bob. Yeshua said, "I have NOT BEEN SENT BUT to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel." The question has to be asked, "Who are the lost sheep?" The answer is not, "the Jews" and here is why....

Israel stood as a united country until after Solomon. After him, the nation divided into two Kingdoms, ISRAEL to the north (the northern Kingdom) and JUDAH to the south (the southern Kingdom). Judah was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and half of Levi whereas Israel was made up of the rest. In 722BC, Assyria attacked the northern Kingdom (Israel) and took them into captivity, Judah was not touched. Why? Because Israel fell into idolatry and Judah didn't. So, Israel goes into Assyria and does not repent, in fact, it gets worse. They begin to chase the gods of Assyria, they replace the God of Israel with their gods... and they even assimilate into their culture. They "cease retaining God in their knowledge" and God "gave them up" to those gods. That means, in one generation they no longer knew YHWH or their old culture... they were now pagans.

History records the northern Kingdom as, "the lost sheep of the House of Israel." Judah later had it's time of punishment, they were taken into Babylon in 585BC but they returned, they came home. We can see them coming back, Ezra and Nehemiah going to the Temple, finding the scrolls and reading them to the.... JEWS. We can trace history VERY CLEARLY, Judah is the Jews. So if Judah is the Jews, who is Israel? Understand, ALL of God's people together are Israel... but in terms of the two Kingdoms, we had Judah and Israel. Judah came home after it's punishment... Israel did not. They are STILL in the nations and I can Scripturally prove that. Anyway... who is Israel? Well, Yeshua said, "my sheep hear my voice." Did you hear his voice Bob? Did you hear it and come in faith believing? Yes... then you are one of his sheep. But remember, he said, "I have NOT BEEN SENT BUT to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel." He was coming to call BACK to northern Kingdom BECAUSE God promised He would call them back. Part of the reason that many Jews still reject Yeshua is because the exiles are still in the nations. Now, I can explain why we still are and how that will change and when it does how THEY will change... but that is another thread.

The bottom line is, we are Israel. And even if everything I just said is wrong... we are STILL part of Israel for these reasons.....

When the foreigners (non-Israelite slaves) came out of Egypt with Israel, they were given the Torah as well, they were said to be treated as if native born, and they assimilated into the tribes they traveled with. For all intents and purposes, this is the first example of being grafted in. We needed to be grafted in either way because we were not living for God even if we are descendants of the northern Kingdom. But at the very least, we are like those foreigners... we become a part of Israel.

I asked you who the covenant was made with and you answered correctly. However, did you notice that there is no covenant made with gentiles? There is no gate in the New Jerusalem for gentiles. 12 gates for 12 tribes, and a covenant cut in the blood of messiah that is made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel and NO OTHER PEOPLE. We are part of them or we are not part of the covenant. And this isn't my words... whoever wrote Hebrews (Paul?) quoted Jeremiah 31 word for word without caveat.... the covenant is made with Judah (the Jews) and Israel (the Christians). It all goes through Yeshua.. even for them in God's timing.



I agree, Yeshua is the door. However, I don't necessarily think that the door has to be opened from the same side. Meaning, we picture the front door of our home. We walk up, we turn the knob, it opens in and we walk in and close it waiting until the next guy comes to the Lord and enters the same way. I think the door is more like a kitchen door in a restaurant. It swings in two directions. Remember, Judah came home after it's punishment and Israel remained in the nations. They had to be called back which brings them to the door from one side... but Judah will come to the same door but from another angle. One door and once we walk through we WILL all be on the same page and even that is another thread.

I do want to say something about the Great Commission. Christians see it as a call to convert the world to Christianity, to draw them to Jesus. Well, it isn't.... first of all, God draws a man UNTO HIMSELF (John 6:44). Second, a person only finds when they seek and if they are not seeking and God hasn't drawn them YET, we have no obligation to try to force Jesus on them. In fact, that really causes resentment and distrust and makes it harder to reach out to them when they HAVE BEEN drawn. Lastly... the word "Go" is a bad translation and if you doubt me ask any Koine Greek SCHOLAR. The word is in participle form, it is going not GO!. We take it as a command and it is in PASSIVE FORM. So the first part of the Great Commission is really, "As you are going." In other words, LIVE a life that reflects the one you serve. And, when God uses that to draw others, and they begin to seek... THEN teach. It is the second half of the Commission that is in command form. The command isn't GO it is TEACH.... not CONVERT.... TEACH. A disciple is a STUDENT and a student in Messiah's day would walk with their teacher for YEARS before going out and walking in their own calling. We have turned all this into a mission to convert the world, and that is not the intent of the verse.

Interesting post with no Scripture to back anything up. I did see mention of some general references and one lone verse. I see no general acknowledgement of the record found in Acts which throws a monkey wrench in your post.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Because then they would be relieved of a GREAT BURDEN ? (of conscience even if they did not know reality ?)
They may not care about if it is true or not - they just get rid of a GREAT BURDEN.

ANYONE would LOVE to be FREE FROM THE LAW - and the world is full of ways*.
The flesh hates the law, and cannot do otherwise.
The living spirit in Y'SHUA loves the law, and is at war with the flesh every day.

*YHWH provides only ONE WAY.

How, when they did not have it before? Just doesn't make any sense.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Amen... my point in what you quoted of mine was simply that the pesach (lamb) was not a sin offering, Kippur was. The Passover addresses something else entirely, something that is missed because we don't study this stuff, we dismiss it saying "we live out of the NT now" but in the process, remove the ENTIRE context of the NT.

Relating to what you just said...

We have two Adams. One came into this world without sin, he did sin, and the result was decay that leads to death. The second Adam came into the world without sin, he did NOT sin, and was put to death anyway. Since the grave was not designed for perfection, only for sin, the grave could not hold him and he resurrected and through that has earned the right to perfect whomever and whatever he wills.

If you weren't passed over you died if you're the first born. This is deliverance from death. First born was always redeemed with a sacrifice. Study the law.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Jesus kept the full Torah, as it was meant to be kept.
Not only because he IS the living Torah, but because
he would have been an imperfect sacrifice if he had
broken the least of the laws. Useless.

Yeppers!!!!

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Context. Following the law is our due to God.
Trying to follow it to be saved is what Paul is
talking about. That is all over the page I linked.


" Paul is writing to the Galatians. Before we think his statements apply to everyone in the entire world, we need to examine the context, examine other scriptures, and examine Paul's own practices to get a full understanding of what was intended. Otherwise we have Paul sending Timothy to the lake of fire by circumcising him "because of the Jews."

Paul is addressing the false 'good news of the circumcision,' so for someone to be circumcised by them was a sign of submission to that false doctrine, a doctrine so dangerous it could cause a man to lose his salvation. Paul himself did circumcise the son of a Gentile to prove he wasn't against circumcision, but he vigorously refuted anyone who taught this 'good news of the circumcision' which was always was a false doctrine.

The truth is that if we are in the Messiah Yahushua, whether we are circumcised or uncircumcised doesn't gain us salvation. To the contrary, if we use it (or any other commanded act) as attempt to replace the work of Messiah, we are putting ourselves under the law and separating ourselves from Yahushua. "

The Scripture explains why Paul had Timothy circumcised.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

There may be only one route to the destination, but it is
easier by far to miss it than to stay on it. That is why so
many who think they are on it are nowhere near it.

I disagree. I have often quoted Gal 5:18 on this forum.

bugkiller

 

[pat34lee]

I disagree. I have often quoted Gal 5:18 on this forum.
bugkiller

How many deceiving spirits are out there that
people listen to, thinking it is the spirit of God?
Discernment is necessary, and not many have it.

 

[Bob S]

OK, so I misunderstood the way it was written. Pretty sure that isn't the first time somebody misunderstood somebody else on the internet.

Jesus statement should be taken very seriously. He told us that he kept His Father's commandments (Torah) and asked His followers to keep His commands. Why would He say such a thing if His commands are the Father's commands. He kept Torah and we are to keep His NEW commandment to love others as He loves us. There are so many passages in the New Testament that refer to the Torah being made null and void that I cannot see where you could possibly continue to teach that we are under Torah. I boggles my mind. You somehow come up with excuses. Out of site, I guess, is out of mind.

What have I possibly stated that would make you wonder if I have any idea how much he loves us?

Well, you denied that Jesus wrote a new command until I repeated it several times. Your denial prompted me to elaborate.

You know, in what is slowing becoming a rant against me, I will tell you this. It is the feasts that reveal ALL of the work of Messiah.

Sorry that you feel that because we do not buy keeping old covenant feasts, new moon celebrations and the weekly Sabbath we are ranting against you. It is very simple, Paul wrote that Torah was until Christ. Are we supposed to cow tow to your theory and deny what Paul wrote in the Holy Writ?

He didn't come just to address sin and eternal life Bob, his mission has MANY FACETS and Christianity remains stuck in first gear, focusing only on sin and eternal life.. either ignoring or misunderstanding the other aspects of his work. I will just give you one example and when I ask this question, just be honest with yourself. Don't blow over this just so you can fire back... we have enough of that in the faith. I am just a brother sharing a piece of information meant to edify.

I know exactly what Jesus came to Earth to do. Every aspect of His life was to bring us to Him the life giver. It is called the plan of Salvation and it was initiated before the foundation of the Earth. The Bible gives us the many parts of the plan. You and I are part of His plan. Sometimes we all cannot see through every part, but I trust that He is in charge and all will end just as the plan states.



Yeshua was the Passover Lamb. As the Passover Lamb, his work addressed the sin of the world... true or false?

Addressed the plan of Salvation.

The answer is false. The Pesach, the Passover Lamb, was not a sin sacrifice. His work as the sin sacrifice is addressed in what today is, Yom Kippur. THAT is a sacrifice that addressed the sin of his people. The Pesach was not dealing with sin and didn't magically start dealing with sin. It has a specific purpose and he ALSO came to address that purpose (and a number of others). I won't say now what it was... this SHOULD give you something you might WANT to study.

What God did for and to Israel is great history. The plan has moved on from B.C. to A.D. Jesus became the final sacrifice. Yom Kipper and all the feasts were for Israel and Israel alone and Jesus fulfilled all of the Torah on the Cross. He fulfilled the Torah. You can continue to deny that He did and try to gain salvation through the law, but you fight a futile battle. The was is finished Jesus gained the victory

No Bob, it embodies the rest of the commandments. He said it Himself... ALL THE LAW and ALL THE PROPHETS hang on loving God and loving neighbor. That doesn't mean AT ALL that ALL THE LAW and ALL THE PROPHETS are replaced with those two...

Maybe you should consider the fact that Jesus was under the Torah and so were all the people He was teaching. Until His death on the cross Torah was still in effect. Once He shed His blood it ratified the new covenant and His sheep were free to proclaim the last part of the Plan of Salvation, how Christians are to live while waiting for His return.

it means those two sum up all the rest.

They do not sum up all the ritual laws given especially for Israel. Those laws have nothing to do with the remainder of the World's population.

Continued later

 

[Bob S]

Israel may have been kept as slaves, but they
left as conquerors. God defeated Pharaoh in
full sight of everyone.

That is not the point my friend. Why can't you just admit you threw something out there that cannot be proved. There is absolutely no basis for writing what you did.

You and your fellow Messianics can believe what you choose, but please don't try to pawn it off on everyone else unless you can prove it from scripture or history.

Does a person have to be from a certain place to
represent it? Ask Hillary. If there were 70 nations
in the bible, then 70 random people could be chosen
by God to represent those nations.

Not nearly all the nations on Earth. Yours is a theory only. We should be dealing with facts.

 

[Ken Rank]

Jesus statement should be taken very seriously. He told us that he kept His Father's commandments (Torah) and asked His followers to keep His commands. Why would He say such a thing if His commands are the Father's commands.

I only have time for this right now... I am off to cut down some cedars so that we can build our sukkah for our congregation. The Feast of Tabernacles begins Sunday evening... it is my children's favorite time of the year.

My answer to your point is simple, "For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken." (John 12:49) The words that Yeshua spoke were the words that the Father gave Him to speak. So it isn't like the Father spoke to Israel in the OT and Jesus speaks to the gentiles in the NT... there is continuity throughout, promises that have not yet happened that MUST happen because God promised them to happen. His commands Bob ARE the Father's commands. He spoke only the words of the Father!

The issue here is not your doctrine or mine.. the issue is time. I can show you using Acts and History that the early church appeared very Hebraic and continued walking in Torah. NOT UNTO SALVATION, but as a part of life for those who belong to God. And being able to differentiate between doing something as our walk and working unto salvation is something too many can't get past. Anyway... two events took place that altered the path of the faith. From there the face of Christianity changed from being more Hebraic to being more Greek. Slowly a decree at a time passed that was intended to make us appear less Jewish... for after, as people like Justin Martyr wrote, "they are Christ-killers." So in 200AD a decree to not eat the food of the Jews. Around 300 a call to not keep the Sabbath of the Jews. Why would they have to pass a decree against something if everyone already knew they weren't supposed to be doing those things? We don't ask those questions? Why? ........ Because we are a product of the time and culture we are raised in. We were born in the late 20th century, we live in the 21st century... we are in the West, 1800 years after many changes were made which means so much time has passed we don't even question those decrees. Heck, we don't even know they made them because we don't study history. We just read our bibles in English, from a 21st century paradigm and think we fully grasp the Hebraic nature of a people raised 2000 years ago in the ancient near east. We don't... we get much from what we read but we leave much on the table.

True story... Paul uses a few of the 7 Rules of Hillel anywhere from 35 to 60 times depending on who counted. (I think closer to 40) Those exegetical rules are used DELIBERATELY to affect the context of what is being said. It is possible that you have not heard of the Rules of Hillel until just now and even if you had heard of them, I doubt you could explain them. That IS NOT A KNOCK brother... it is just that I know the church not only doesn't teach them, they don't know they exist. And if those tools were used to AFFECT CONTEXT, then how can we have the full context of what we are reading, without them? We think context is the verse before and after.... context is the whole chapter or at least the part of the chapter being quoted from the OT. When Paul quotes Isaiah 10:22 in Romans 9:27, do you go back and read what Isaiah was talking about to understand what Paul is really saying? No... we are not taught to do that. By the way, put your cursor over those two verses... why is one "saved" and the other "returned?"

You and I can go around and around for the next year and come back to this one point and not have progressed at all. I know... sadly... I did that once and learned my lesson. We are reading Scripture from two different perspectives and in the end agree on most things. The main difference right now is that I don't think the law was done away with... I think our guilt was done away with. And again, that does NOT MEAN works save or anything even remotely close to that. It simply means that I was lord and I called my own shots and I was lost..... and now.... HE IS LORD and I live according to His will. Blessings.

 

[listed]

Who was Paul teaching? Mostly Israelites and gentiles
in the diaspora who lived among pagans. When you
grow up a pagan, it takes time to change from living
like them and letting them influence you.

Why doesn't this same thing apply to the Jews adjusting to the new covenant? The followers of Jesus continued some what in the traditions of the law. Paul was not teaching these things. Paul only practiced Judaism when evangelizing them.

 

[listed]

Jesus kept the full Torah, as it was meant to be kept.
Not only because he IS the living Torah, but because
he would have been an imperfect sacrifice if he had
broken the least of the laws. Useless.

True, but how does your post relate to mine?

 

[listed]

Context. Following the law is our due to God.
Trying to follow it to be saved is what Paul is talking about. That is all over the page I linked.

In-other-words we earn our salvation. I could never accept this. The Bible says salvation is a free gift. Paul never teaches anyone to follow the law.

 

[listed]

I only have time for this right now... I am off to cut down some cedars so that we can build our sukkah for our congregation. The Feast of Tabernacles begins Sunday evening... it is my children's favorite time of the year.

Nice. Enjoy it.

My answer to your point is simple, "For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken." (John 12:49) The words that Yeshua spoke were the words that the Father gave Him to speak. So it isn't like the Father spoke to Israel in the OT and Jesus speaks to the gentiles in the NT... there is continuity throughout, promises that have not yet happened that MUST happen because God promised them to happen. His commands Bob ARE the Father's commands. He spoke only the words of the Father!

The thing I don't understand about this view point is how that makes Jesus the giver or author of the ten commandments. John's Gospel indicates Jesus had nothing to do with bringing the law. The commands given through Jesus are entirely different from those given through Moses.

The issue here is not your doctrine or mine.. the issue is time. I can show you using Acts and History that the early church appeared very Hebraic and continued walking in Torah. NOT UNTO SALVATION, but as a part of life for those who belong to God. And being able to differentiate between doing something as our walk and working unto salvation is something too many can't get past. Anyway... two events took place that altered the path of the faith. From there the face of Christianity changed from being more Hebraic to being more Greek. Slowly a decree at a time passed that was intended to make us appear less Jewish... for after, as people like Justin Martyr wrote, "they are Christ-killers." So in 200AD a decree to not eat the food of the Jews. Around 300 a call to not keep the Sabbath of the Jews. Why would they have to pass a decree against something if everyone already knew they weren't supposed to be doing those things? We don't ask those questions? Why? ........ Because we are a product of the time and culture we are raised in. We were born in the late 20th century, we live in the 21st century... we are in the West, 1800 years after many changes were made which means so much time has passed we don't even question those decrees. Heck, we don't even know they made them because we don't study history. We just read our bibles in English, from a 21st century paradigm and think we fully grasp the Hebraic nature of a people raised 2000 years ago in the ancient near east. We don't... we get much from what we read but we leave much on the table.

Agreed to a limited point. The church was largely made up of Jews for a few years (less than 50 is my guess).

It isn't that a law was passed because people weren't supposed to worship on Saturday. The law was passed mostly because of the problem the Jews caused. Christians were already worshiping largely on Sunday as early as 50 AD according to historical literature.

Yes many people apply 21st century definitions to 17 and 18th century British word meanings. This skews the Bible badly. Teaching Shakespeare doesn't seem to take effect.

True story... Paul uses a few of the 7 Rules of Hillel anywhere from 35 to 60 times depending on who counted. (I think closer to 40) Those exegetical rules are used DELIBERATELY to affect the context of what is being said. It is possible that you have not heard of the Rules of Hillel until just now and even if you had heard of them, I doubt you could explain them. That IS NOT A KNOCK brother... it is just that I know the church not only doesn't teach them, they don't know they exist. And if those tools were used to AFFECT CONTEXT, then how can we have the full context of what we are reading, without them? We think context is the verse before and after.... context is the whole chapter or at least the part of the chapter being quoted from the OT. When Paul quotes Isaiah 10:22 in Romans 9:27, do you go back and read what Isaiah was talking about to understand what Paul is really saying? No... we are not taught to do that. By the way, put your cursor over those two verses... why is one "saved" and the other "returned?"

It isn't the churches responsibility to teach communication skills. Context is the full Bible when discussing it.

All Paul was doing in 9:27 is explaining God wasn't finished with Israel yet. Paul continues with this idea in chapter 11. It doesn't deal with salvation called eternal life.

You and I can go around and around for the next year and come back to this one point and not have progressed at all. I know... sadly... I did that once and learned my lesson. We are reading Scripture from two different perspectives and in the end agree on most things. The main difference right now is that I don't think the law was done away with... I think our guilt was done away with. And again, that does NOT MEAN works save or anything even remotely close to that. It simply means that I was lord and I called my own shots and I was lost..... and now.... HE IS LORD and I live according to His will. Blessings.

The law isn't done away with as in annihilation. Neither was our guilt done away with. Sin was done away with. I will remember their sin no more in Isaiah 43:25 and Hebrews 8:12. The word used in Isaiah means to wipe out as in exterminate like annihilation meaning no longer existing.

 

[1John2:4]

I only have time for this right now... I am off to cut down some cedars so that we can build our sukkah for our congregation. The Feast of Tabernacles begins Sunday evening... it is my children's favorite time of the year.

Very precious!!

 

[klutedavid]

I only have time for this right now... I am off to cut down some cedars so that we can build our sukkah for our congregation. The Feast of Tabernacles begins Sunday evening... it is my children's favorite time of the year.

My answer to your point is simple, "For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken." (John 12:49) The words that Yeshua spoke were the words that the Father gave Him to speak. So it isn't like the Father spoke to Israel in the OT and Jesus speaks to the gentiles in the NT... there is continuity throughout, promises that have not yet happened that MUST happen because God promised them to happen. His commands Bob ARE the Father's commands. He spoke only the words of the Father!

The issue here is not your doctrine or mine.. the issue is time. I can show you using Acts and History that the early church appeared very Hebraic and continued walking in Torah. NOT UNTO SALVATION, but as a part of life for those who belong to God. And being able to differentiate between doing something as our walk and working unto salvation is something too many can't get past. Anyway... two events took place that altered the path of the faith. From there the face of Christianity changed from being more Hebraic to being more Greek. Slowly a decree at a time passed that was intended to make us appear less Jewish... for after, as people like Justin Martyr wrote, "they are Christ-killers." So in 200AD a decree to not eat the food of the Jews. Around 300 a call to not keep the Sabbath of the Jews. Why would they have to pass a decree against something if everyone already knew they weren't supposed to be doing those things? We don't ask those questions? Why? ........ Because we are a product of the time and culture we are raised in. We were born in the late 20th century, we live in the 21st century... we are in the West, 1800 years after many changes were made which means so much time has passed we don't even question those decrees. Heck, we don't even know they made them because we don't study history. We just read our bibles in English, from a 21st century paradigm and think we fully grasp the Hebraic nature of a people raised 2000 years ago in the ancient near east. We don't... we get much from what we read but we leave much on the table.

True story... Paul uses a few of the 7 Rules of Hillel anywhere from 35 to 60 times depending on who counted. (I think closer to 40) Those exegetical rules are used DELIBERATELY to affect the context of what is being said. It is possible that you have not heard of the Rules of Hillel until just now and even if you had heard of them, I doubt you could explain them. That IS NOT A KNOCK brother... it is just that I know the church not only doesn't teach them, they don't know they exist. And if those tools were used to AFFECT CONTEXT, then how can we have the full context of what we are reading, without them? We think context is the verse before and after.... context is the whole chapter or at least the part of the chapter being quoted from the OT. When Paul quotes Isaiah 10:22 in Romans 9:27, do you go back and read what Isaiah was talking about to understand what Paul is really saying? No... we are not taught to do that. By the way, put your cursor over those two verses... why is one "saved" and the other "returned?"

You and I can go around and around for the next year and come back to this one point and not have progressed at all. I know... sadly... I did that once and learned my lesson. We are reading Scripture from two different perspectives and in the end agree on most things. The main difference right now is that I don't think the law was done away with... I think our guilt was done away with. And again, that does NOT MEAN works save or anything even remotely close to that. It simply means that I was lord and I called my own shots and I was lost..... and now.... HE IS LORD and I live according to His will. Blessings.

Hello Ken.

You made a statement about the Sabbath that is not correct.

Around 300 a call to not keep the Sabbath of the Jews. Why would they have to pass a decree against something if everyone already knew they weren't supposed to be doing those things?

There are numerous letters that date from the first century to the fourth century.
That tell us that early in Christianity, the Sabbath was already obsolete. Here
Ken, I will print one of these letters below.

Epistle of Barnabus

Written sometime after the destruction of the temple in 70 CE and before the Bar Kochba revolt in 132 CE.

Barnabas 15
8 Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot away with. Ye see what is His meaning, it is not your present Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world. 9 Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended into the heavens.

 

[bugkiller]

How many deceiving spirits are out there that
people listen to, thinking it is the spirit of God?
Discernment is necessary, and not many have it.

Yeppers

bugkiller

 

[Bob S]

OK, so I misunderstood the way it was written. Pretty sure that isn't the first time somebody misunderstood somebody else on the internet.



What have I possibly stated that would make you wonder if I have any idea how much he loves us? You know, in what is slowing becoming a rant against me, I will tell you this. It is the feasts that reveal ALL of the work of Messiah. He didn't come just to address sin and eternal life Bob, his mission has MANY FACETS and Christianity remains stuck in first gear, focusing only on sin and eternal life.. either ignoring or misunderstanding the other aspects of his work. I will just give you one example and when I ask this question, just be honest with yourself. Don't blow over this just so you can fire back... we have enough of that in the faith. I am just a brother sharing a piece of information meant to edify.

Yeshua was the Passover Lamb. As the Passover Lamb, his work addressed the sin of the world... true or false?

The answer is false. The Pesach, the Passover Lamb, was not a sin sacrifice. His work as the sin sacrifice is addressed in what today is, Yom Kippur. THAT is a sacrifice that addressed the sin of his people. The Pesach was not dealing with sin and didn't magically start dealing with sin. It has a specific purpose and he ALSO came to address that purpose (and a number of others). I won't say now what it was... this SHOULD give you something you might WANT to study.



No Bob, it embodies the rest of the commandments. He said it Himself... ALL THE LAW and ALL THE PROPHETS hang on loving God and loving neighbor. That doesn't mean AT ALL that ALL THE LAW and ALL THE PROPHETS are replaced with those two... it means those two sum up all the rest. Why don't we steal? Because that would oppose loving neighbor. Why don't we drink blood? Because that is what those who served pagan gods did which stands opposed to loving God. God called His commandments eternal and God does not change. He didn't put out the covenant with Israel at Sinai and then realize that He erred and had to come up with a better way... I have heard pastors teach this. I am sure you don't believe that, you are a sharp guy. But in the end, if God calls something eternal and He Himself exists outside of time, then He knows if it really is eternal or not and won't call something eternal that isn't.



I believe we are Israel Bob. Yeshua said, "I have NOT BEEN SENT BUT to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel." The question has to be asked, "Who are the lost sheep?" The answer is not, "the Jews" and here is why....

Israel stood as a united country until after Solomon. After him, the nation divided into two Kingdoms, ISRAEL to the north (the northern Kingdom) and JUDAH to the south (the southern Kingdom). Judah was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and half of Levi whereas Israel was made up of the rest. In 722BC, Assyria attacked the northern Kingdom (Israel) and took them into captivity, Judah was not touched. Why? Because Israel fell into idolatry and Judah didn't. So, Israel goes into Assyria and does not repent, in fact, it gets worse. They begin to chase the gods of Assyria, they replace the God of Israel with their gods... and they even assimilate into their culture. They "cease retaining God in their knowledge" and God "gave them up" to those gods. That means, in one generation they no longer knew YHWH or their old culture... they were now pagans.

History records the northern Kingdom as, "the lost sheep of the House of Israel." Judah later had it's time of punishment, they were taken into Babylon in 585BC but they returned, they came home. We can see them coming back, Ezra and Nehemiah going to the Temple, finding the scrolls and reading them to the.... JEWS. We can trace history VERY CLEARLY, Judah is the Jews. So if Judah is the Jews, who is Israel? Understand, ALL of God's people together are Israel... but in terms of the two Kingdoms, we had Judah and Israel. Judah came home after it's punishment... Israel did not. They are STILL in the nations and I can Scripturally prove that. Anyway... who is Israel? Well, Yeshua said, "my sheep hear my voice." Did you hear his voice Bob? Did you hear it and come in faith believing? Yes... then you are one of his sheep. But remember, he said, "I have NOT BEEN SENT BUT to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel." He was coming to call BACK to northern Kingdom BECAUSE God promised He would call them back. Part of the reason that many Jews still reject Yeshua is because the exiles are still in the nations. Now, I can explain why we still are and how that will change and when it does how THEY will change... but that is another thread.

The bottom line is, we are Israel. And even if everything I just said is wrong... we are STILL part of Israel for these reasons.....

When the foreigners (non-Israelite slaves) came out of Egypt with Israel, they were given the Torah as well, they were said to be treated as if native born, and they assimilated into the tribes they traveled with. For all intents and purposes, this is the first example of being grafted in. We needed to be grafted in either way because we were not living for God even if we are descendants of the northern Kingdom. But at the very least, we are like those foreigners... we become a part of Israel.

I asked you who the covenant was made with and you answered correctly. However, did you notice that there is no covenant made with gentiles? There is no gate in the New Jerusalem for gentiles. 12 gates for 12 tribes, and a covenant cut in the blood of messiah that is made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel and NO OTHER PEOPLE. We are part of them or we are not part of the covenant. And this isn't my words... whoever wrote Hebrews (Paul?) quoted Jeremiah 31 word for word without caveat.... the covenant is made with Judah (the Jews) and Israel (the Christians). It all goes through Yeshua.. even for them in God's timing.



I agree, Yeshua is the door. However, I don't necessarily think that the door has to be opened from the same side. Meaning, we picture the front door of our home. We walk up, we turn the knob, it opens in and we walk in and close it waiting until the next guy comes to the Lord and enters the same way. I think the door is more like a kitchen door in a restaurant. It swings in two directions. Remember, Judah came home after it's punishment and Israel remained in the nations. They had to be called back which brings them to the door from one side... but Judah will come to the same door but from another angle. One door and once we walk through we WILL all be on the same page and even that is another thread.

I do want to say something about the Great Commission. Christians see it as a call to convert the world to Christianity, to draw them to Jesus. Well, it isn't.... first of all, God draws a man UNTO HIMSELF (John 6:44). Second, a person only finds when they seek and if they are not seeking and God hasn't drawn them YET, we have no obligation to try to force Jesus on them. In fact, that really causes resentment and distrust and makes it harder to reach out to them when they HAVE BEEN drawn. Lastly... the word "Go" is a bad translation and if you doubt me ask any Koine Greek SCHOLAR. The word is in participle form, it is going not GO!. We take it as a command and it is in PASSIVE FORM. So the first part of the Great Commission is really, "As you are going." In other words, LIVE a life that reflects the one you serve. And, when God uses that to draw others, and they begin to seek... THEN teach. It is the second half of the Commission that is in command form. The command isn't GO it is TEACH.... not CONVERT.... TEACH. A disciple is a STUDENT and a student in Messiah's day would walk with their teacher for YEARS before going out and walking in their own calling. We have turned all this into a mission to convert the world, and that is not the intent of the verse.

All that is your opinion friend. Israelites are Semites and are intermingled just like we are in America. I feel for certain that if you were to truly seek to obey the Torah you would rebuild the Temple and try to find someone to represent the Levites. I bet you could not find one Jew that is a full blooded Levite. Jesus parents were not a full blooded Jews. I certainly do not know where you get all your information, not saying it is not true, but it has nothing to do with Jesus opening the door to Gentiles. All of the Gentiles were not pagans, they loved God with all their hearts and honored the commands that He gave them through the ages.

I don't believe for a minute that Gentiles are a part of Israel nor do we become part of Israel when we accept Jesus. Yom Kippur was a celebration demanded by God for sins. You hope God will forgive your sins.
Jesus is fulfillment of that celebration and we who trust in Him don't have to hope we know He has given forgiveness and washed away everyone of our sins forever, something Yom Kippur could never do. Feasts, New moon celebrations and weekly Sabbaths were for Israel only and are now shadows just as is Israel.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Apostle Paul spoke on that subject.

Gal 4:25
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:30
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

It is the same "yoke" spoken by Peter in Acts chapter 15.


Act 15
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Let the Sinai covenant of bondage go. The yoke has served its purpose.

.

Live by the yoke, suffer by the yoke..............

Deuteronomy 28:
48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which YAHWEH shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things:
and He shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until He hath destroyed thee.
68 YAHWEH will take you back in ships to Egypt by a route that I said you would never see again.
There you will sell yourselves to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you."

John 11:48
"If-ever we may be be letting Him thus, all shall be believing in Him.
And shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away of Us and the Place and the Nation
[Reve 6:6/14:8]

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Reve 11:2/13:10]

Reve 6:5
And when it up-opens the third seal , I hear of the third living one saying: "Be you coming"! And I am looking and I see and Behold!
A black horse, and the one sitting-down upon it having a Yoke/zugon <2218> in the hand of him. [Deut 28:18/Acts 15:10]

Reve 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away. If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.
[Luke 21:24]

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made. Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves.
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.


.

 

[pat34lee]

Maybe you should consider the fact that Jesus was under the Torah and so were all the people He was teaching. Until His death on the cross Torah was still in effect. Once He shed His blood it ratified the new covenant

The new covenant which is not in force yet.
How do people miss the obvious, that they
do not have the law written on their heart?
When 2 Christians can't even agree on what
is law and what is sin, there is a problem.

It goes right back to not believing the Word.
There is no Jew or gentile, no male or female.
One law and one salvation for all.