To whom and why God gave the Sabbaths?

[listed]

Well, that part was correct, anyway.

Jesus kept the commands because he had to. The same is true of anyone
who wants to please God.

You can't follow the law for someone else, and nobody can do it for you.
Not even Jesus.

He took our punishment for our failure to follow the law perfectly.
Isn't that enough?

Those commands are not the same as the ones Jesus kept according to Jesus.

 

[listed]

Let's start with who the bondwoman was. Hagar, the handmaid and her son Ishmael.
The children of promise are Israel. Correct? The promise being God's covenant with Abram.

How many OT covenants were there? Five, counting the New Covenant in Jeremiah.
Why is the third covenant the only one people want to see gone? Because it lists
their duties to God, not only his promises to them.

The only problem is not with the law, but with those who try to be justified by keeping
the law. Even in the OT, justification came through faith, not the law, but they were still
required to keep the law. Why is that if we are not to follow it also?

Galatians is all about why we should follow Torah
https://www.eliyah.com/galatians4kjv.html

Your site is an excellent site for Bible reading and pasting verses here. It is not a good site for commentary. In reading your referenced page I am glad I have not clicked on the study this button.

Take the first 5 verses of chapter 3. If Paul is preaching the law for salvation concept why does he make such a statement? Look at chapter 5 where Paul says following the law is forsaking or making Jesus worthless.

 

[Ken Rank]

Wrong Ken. I didn't say loving neighbor was new. Jesus said and I quote "“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you," There is not one command in the old Testament that says "As I have loved you".

OK, so I misunderstood the way it was written. Pretty sure that isn't the first time somebody misunderstood somebody else on the internet.

Do you have any idea how great a love Jesus has for us. Look at Calvary, the weight of all of the World's sins on Him. We are to love others and if necessary give our lives for others.

What have I possibly stated that would make you wonder if I have any idea how much he loves us? You know, in what is slowing becoming a rant against me, I will tell you this. It is the feasts that reveal ALL of the work of Messiah. He didn't come just to address sin and eternal life Bob, his mission has MANY FACETS and Christianity remains stuck in first gear, focusing only on sin and eternal life.. either ignoring or misunderstanding the other aspects of his work. I will just give you one example and when I ask this question, just be honest with yourself. Don't blow over this just so you can fire back... we have enough of that in the faith. I am just a brother sharing a piece of information meant to edify.

Yeshua was the Passover Lamb. As the Passover Lamb, his work addressed the sin of the world... true or false?

The answer is false. The Pesach, the Passover Lamb, was not a sin sacrifice. His work as the sin sacrifice is addressed in what today is, Yom Kippur. THAT is a sacrifice that addressed the sin of his people. The Pesach was not dealing with sin and didn't magically start dealing with sin. It has a specific purpose and he ALSO came to address that purpose (and a number of others). I won't say now what it was... this SHOULD give you something you might WANT to study.

That supersedes all other commands ever given anyplace in scripture. That is what John is referring to in 1Jn3:19-24. I know I have the truth, 1jn3:19, because I have accepted Jesus and willing to keep His commands 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

No Bob, it embodies the rest of the commandments. He said it Himself... ALL THE LAW and ALL THE PROPHETS hang on loving God and loving neighbor. That doesn't mean AT ALL that ALL THE LAW and ALL THE PROPHETS are replaced with those two... it means those two sum up all the rest. Why don't we steal? Because that would oppose loving neighbor. Why don't we drink blood? Because that is what those who served pagan gods did which stands opposed to loving God. God called His commandments eternal and God does not change. He didn't put out the covenant with Israel at Sinai and then realize that He erred and had to come up with a better way... I have heard pastors teach this. I am sure you don't believe that, you are a sharp guy. But in the end, if God calls something eternal and He Himself exists outside of time, then He knows if it really is eternal or not and won't call something eternal that isn't.

Do you see anything there that would indicate that Christians are to observe the ritual given only to Israel? I don't either, but I do know I am doing His will by abiding by John's words there in 1Jn3. If Sabbath observance is so very important as the Torah observers state, why didn't John, guided by the Holy Spirit, tell us there where he would have had a perfect opportunity? That is one true reason to believe Paul were he told us that the old covenant keeping of days is a shadow and that Jesus is now reality.

I believe we are Israel Bob. Yeshua said, "I have NOT BEEN SENT BUT to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel." The question has to be asked, "Who are the lost sheep?" The answer is not, "the Jews" and here is why....

Israel stood as a united country until after Solomon. After him, the nation divided into two Kingdoms, ISRAEL to the north (the northern Kingdom) and JUDAH to the south (the southern Kingdom). Judah was made up of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and half of Levi whereas Israel was made up of the rest. In 722BC, Assyria attacked the northern Kingdom (Israel) and took them into captivity, Judah was not touched. Why? Because Israel fell into idolatry and Judah didn't. So, Israel goes into Assyria and does not repent, in fact, it gets worse. They begin to chase the gods of Assyria, they replace the God of Israel with their gods... and they even assimilate into their culture. They "cease retaining God in their knowledge" and God "gave them up" to those gods. That means, in one generation they no longer knew YHWH or their old culture... they were now pagans.

History records the northern Kingdom as, "the lost sheep of the House of Israel." Judah later had it's time of punishment, they were taken into Babylon in 585BC but they returned, they came home. We can see them coming back, Ezra and Nehemiah going to the Temple, finding the scrolls and reading them to the.... JEWS. We can trace history VERY CLEARLY, Judah is the Jews. So if Judah is the Jews, who is Israel? Understand, ALL of God's people together are Israel... but in terms of the two Kingdoms, we had Judah and Israel. Judah came home after it's punishment... Israel did not. They are STILL in the nations and I can Scripturally prove that. Anyway... who is Israel? Well, Yeshua said, "my sheep hear my voice." Did you hear his voice Bob? Did you hear it and come in faith believing? Yes... then you are one of his sheep. But remember, he said, "I have NOT BEEN SENT BUT to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel." He was coming to call BACK to northern Kingdom BECAUSE God promised He would call them back. Part of the reason that many Jews still reject Yeshua is because the exiles are still in the nations. Now, I can explain why we still are and how that will change and when it does how THEY will change... but that is another thread.

The bottom line is, we are Israel. And even if everything I just said is wrong... we are STILL part of Israel for these reasons.....

When the foreigners (non-Israelite slaves) came out of Egypt with Israel, they were given the Torah as well, they were said to be treated as if native born, and they assimilated into the tribes they traveled with. For all intents and purposes, this is the first example of being grafted in. We needed to be grafted in either way because we were not living for God even if we are descendants of the northern Kingdom. But at the very least, we are like those foreigners... we become a part of Israel.

I asked you who the covenant was made with and you answered correctly. However, did you notice that there is no covenant made with gentiles? There is no gate in the New Jerusalem for gentiles. 12 gates for 12 tribes, and a covenant cut in the blood of messiah that is made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel and NO OTHER PEOPLE. We are part of them or we are not part of the covenant. And this isn't my words... whoever wrote Hebrews (Paul?) quoted Jeremiah 31 word for word without caveat.... the covenant is made with Judah (the Jews) and Israel (the Christians). It all goes through Yeshua.. even for them in God's timing.

We all come to Christ in the same manner. Jesus, by telling the disciples, Mark 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation........, Gentiles can now claim the same promises as Jews. In Christ we are neither Jew or Greek, we are all one in Christ. Amen!

I agree, Yeshua is the door. However, I don't necessarily think that the door has to be opened from the same side. Meaning, we picture the front door of our home. We walk up, we turn the knob, it opens in and we walk in and close it waiting until the next guy comes to the Lord and enters the same way. I think the door is more like a kitchen door in a restaurant. It swings in two directions. Remember, Judah came home after it's punishment and Israel remained in the nations. They had to be called back which brings them to the door from one side... but Judah will come to the same door but from another angle. One door and once we walk through we WILL all be on the same page and even that is another thread.

I do want to say something about the Great Commission. Christians see it as a call to convert the world to Christianity, to draw them to Jesus. Well, it isn't.... first of all, God draws a man UNTO HIMSELF (John 6:44). Second, a person only finds when they seek and if they are not seeking and God hasn't drawn them YET, we have no obligation to try to force Jesus on them. In fact, that really causes resentment and distrust and makes it harder to reach out to them when they HAVE BEEN drawn. Lastly... the word "Go" is a bad translation and if you doubt me ask any Koine Greek SCHOLAR. The word is in participle form, it is going not GO!. We take it as a command and it is in PASSIVE FORM. So the first part of the Great Commission is really, "As you are going." In other words, LIVE a life that reflects the one you serve. And, when God uses that to draw others, and they begin to seek... THEN teach. It is the second half of the Commission that is in command form. The command isn't GO it is TEACH.... not CONVERT.... TEACH. A disciple is a STUDENT and a student in Messiah's day would walk with their teacher for YEARS before going out and walking in their own calling. We have turned all this into a mission to convert the world, and that is not the intent of the verse.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ken,
Brother, I feel your heart from your posts. You are only trying to help other brothers and sisters to see that the enemy has stolen from them. He stole God's Sabbaths and His instructions, you just want to help them understand that you are not a Judiazer, you care for them and want them to see the blessings that they are missing out on. I was the same place you are with this same group a couple months ago and it really put me in a bad place for a little while. I hope that you will find another group on this forum that is interested in learning truth. Remember what Yeshua said in Matthew 7:6.
Have a enriching Yom Kippur!!
Shalom

I appreciate you. I believe folks should walk as they are convicted of. But I do believe that our 21st century, English, Greek influenced picture of the faith that began 2000 years ago in the ancient near east to a Semitic people has some context and history that is missing. We are "born into" a particular time, culture, and paradigm and if that culture and paradigm has a different mindset and it defines its words differently than the people they are trying to emulate, then we are missing some context and need to look outside of our paradigm. We simply leave food on the table that God has intended for us to eat when we only look through the lens we were raised in.

Brakhot and shalom to you and yours.

PS.... I have something I want to share with you. Can you send me a message and if you are not set up to, look me up on Facebook or something.

 

[listed]

A. there is a difference between debate and name calling. I have watched brothers call other brothers names, on this site and plenty of places elsewhere, and that promotes division within the body and that is something God HATES (see Prov. 6:16-19). If God hates division so should we... so debate is fine, arguing is not. Besides, I am not the originator of this position:

So you have a thin skin. Name calling is just a short cut word picture making a statement.

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Simply can't believe you quoted and emphasized this verse.

Quit my whining? I just supported my position with a Proverb and with words from Paul... I will be sure to ask God to stop his whining, and that, when He sees Paul, to ask him to do the same, ok?

Sorry but you're whining. Besides that you keep doing what your verse says is foolish.

By the way, thanks, for providing an easy example of something that might have been better off not said.



This is sophomoric. I am a Christian and in about 95% of all beliefs (or more) we are probably in perfect agreement. On SOME things we don't see eye to eye... so what? You are going to say that >>I<< am violating somebody else's house because I have a few different views in a religious culture that has anywhere between 10,000 and 40,000 denominations and sects? Do you think there is that much division because of agreement?

If you're a Christiaan why are you pushing the law? Gal 5 says those who do viod their salvation making Jesus of no effect.

You have a skewed view of people. I would have said that the VAST MAJORITY of people on here love neighbor. Some, I might have added, have learned how to even extend that to their enemies as we were told to do.

We all have a skewed view of people. You seem to not like mine for some reason. OK with me.

I have no idea what you are even trying to say here. What resources are not available to me? On top of having what might be the most extensive version of eSword anyone has, our congregation has over 3000 books and resource material. But none of that matters, what matters is that the Spirit is with us to help us understand it and discern it. To assume I am just regurgitating what others believe is nonsense as well... I am not one of those people on this site who spend their time copying and pasting what everyone else says. Just like this post, every word is written in one quick sitting from the top of my head not by copying others and pasting them here. You make some off assumptions my friend but... people do that when they hide behind screen names.

Read your posts.

Why would you assume I think edifying means agreement? We do not have to agree. If you think I believe we all should agree, please read the underlined sentence again. Being of "one mind and one accord" is NOT looking, thinking, and acting alike. It is being able to come together in function, to work together toward a common goal DESPITE ANY DIFFERENCES.

Blessings.
Ken

Yes already responded to this post once but wanted to add some more commentary.

 

[listed]

Yes, I have devised this plan to come on here, under my own name with my own picture, to secretely troll through the threads with the sole mission of proving how wrong everyone else is and why correct I am.

Dude... I am a fallible fallible man. But, I know Jesus... and I trust in his work and if you do that makes us brothers. Most of the details beyond that are usually not as important as we think they are. Now if I were on here pushing a "works based" salvation, which I am not... works alone do not save... then you would really have a right to make these assumptions. Or, if I were leading people away from God, you would have a right to make these assumptions. But I am an open book... I am here under my own name and my own picture and you can Google me and read any of 100 articles, videos, interviews, whatever you want. And what you will likely come away with is that you don't agree with me in certain areas... but that my love of Jesus and my appreciation for the sacrifice he made on our behalf, over-rides any differences in SOME doctrinal conclusions.

Wish I could believe you were 100% honest. I do believe you're very sincere.

 

[listed]

Christians see the word "law" and have one definition, one application for the word. Sometimes it is speaking about God's law. Other times it is speaking about Jewish law which is God's law with man made additions. And other times we have the law of sin and death... which is not God's law, it was that which became our reality when Adam sinned. Oh... and rarely but a few other times, the word law also means secular law. Now, as stated in one of my recent posts... the Gnostics, who called themselves Jews (we know this from their own historical writings) were pushing a works based gospel onto the Galatians. That is the main debate in that book.

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

When did the Jews not know God or were not known by God? This isn't speaking about Jews as the Jews were not only known by God, they were entrusted with His Word (Romans 3:2). So if it isn't the Jews that are being spoken to, then the beggarly elements they are returning to are NOT God's Feasts... they were pagan holy days.

Didn't you read what Paul says about the law in Gal 5?
Didn't you read what Paul called dung in Phil 3?

 

[listed]

Think about how your conclusion paints God. You just said that "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul" or "Do not steal" or "Do not murder" is a ministry that brings death? That is not consistent with anything save for modern, dispensational, anomian thinking.

The law contained the do's and don'ts but it ALSO contains our pronunciation of guilt. We are guilty, we deserve death... but through Yeshua we have life. It is just like this...

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Based on your conclusion above, I imagine you like many others see this as the commandments being nailed to the cross. but again, that means "love the Lord thy God and Him only" gets nailed to the cross. "Do not steal" gets nailed to the cross and then what, we live lawlessly? No... our GUILT, the pronunciation of our guilt, the verdict of our guilt, is nailed to the cross. That is the curse that Yeshua came to reverse... he came to reverse the curse of death... but your conclusion has his coming to get rid of the 10 commandments??? The same commandments he faithfully followed?

Why do people of your persuasion make these silly conclusive statements about the ten commandments?

 

[listed]

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

If we just look at the above without emotion and bias (a hard thing to do, we ALL have a bias) then we see that whoever these people are did not know God and were not known by God. The Jews were known by God, even if one takes a position that they broke the covenant and God is angry with them or something... He still knew them... Paul wrote that God entrusted His Holy Word with them....

So, where is Galatia? It is in modern Turkey, on the west-central part above Cyprus. By foot, it was about 1000 KM (over 600 miles) from Judea. These are not Jews... these were sun worshipers who became followers of Christ who began to fall back into the lives they left.

Why would a pagan care about being redeemed from under the law, v 5?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

As the Passover Lamb, his work addressed the sin of the world... true or false?

To verify: no. it was not HIS WORK that addressed the sin of the world.

There is a common heresy going around (didn't see it on this forum yet, but on other chat rooms etc...) that JESUS LIFE SIN FREE is what gave us freedom from the penalty of our sin .... (no, it did not).
The LIFE OF JESUS had no sin, or HE could not have been THE MESSIAH. But it was not HIS CLEAN LIFE that PAID FOR OUR SIN.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why would a pagan care about being redeemed from under the law...?

Because then they would be relieved of a GREAT BURDEN ? (of conscience even if they did not know reality ?)
They may not care about if it is true or not - they just get rid of a GREAT BURDEN.

ANYONE would LOVE to be FREE FROM THE LAW - and the world is full of ways*.
The flesh hates the law, and cannot do otherwise.
The living spirit in Y'SHUA loves the law, and is at war with the flesh every day.

*YHWH provides only ONE WAY.

 

[Ken Rank]

To verify: no. it was not HIS WORK that addressed the sin of the world.

There is a common heresy going around (didn't see it on this forum yet, but on other chat rooms etc...) that JESUS LIFE SIN FREE is what gave us freedom from the penalty of our sin .... (no, it did not).
The LIFE OF JESUS had no sin, or HE could not have been THE MESSIAH. But it was not HIS CLEAN LIFE that PAID FOR OUR SIN.

Amen... my point in what you quoted of mine was simply that the pesach (lamb) was not a sin offering, Kippur was. The Passover addresses something else entirely, something that is missed because we don't study this stuff, we dismiss it saying "we live out of the NT now" but in the process, remove the ENTIRE context of the NT.

Relating to what you just said...

We have two Adams. One came into this world without sin, he did sin, and the result was decay that leads to death. The second Adam came into the world without sin, he did NOT sin, and was put to death anyway. Since the grave was not designed for perfection, only for sin, the grave could not hold him and he resurrected and through that has earned the right to perfect whomever and whatever he wills.

 

[Ken Rank]

Just as an aside... if we had a movie that was 2 hours long, we wouldn't pay money to get to only watch the last 30 minutes because without the first hour and a half, the last 30 minutes wouldn't have the meaning and context to make it worthwhile.

The Tanach (OT) is 3/4's of the bible and while the remaining 1/4 is worthwhile alone, the last 1/4 does NOT contain the context and meaning without the first 3/4. That is proven out all by itself by this fact.... there are 343 Old Testament quotations in the New Testament, as well as no fewer than 2, 309 allusions and verbal parallels. Since a hermeneutic rule used by the Hebrews, ESPECIALLY PAUL, is to expect the CONTEXT of the books or chapters quoted to be brought into the NT passage... then we leave food on the table when we have the attitude toward the Tanach that we have.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

... got 2 or 3 posts mixed up ...

 

[Bob S]

The battle between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant has been going on since Acts chapter 15, which was written almost 2,000 years ago. So far, you have made it clear that you are on the side of the Judaisers.

Exo 34:28　 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.　

The 10 commandments are the Sinai covenant. The 600+ other ordinances written down by Moses explained how to keep the Sinai covenant.

Deu 5:2　 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.　
Deu 5:3　 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.　

As confirmed by Paul in Galatians chapter 3 the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed could come to whom the promise was made.

Did Abraham follow the commandments he was given? Of course.

He went to the land God showed him.
He circumcised his male offspring.

Your efforts to show that the 10 commandments were put in place before Mount Sinai will not hold water.

Those here are not trying to hurt your feelings.
We are trying to get you out of the modern Hebrew Roots movement, into which you have become ensnared, by speaking the truth.

.

Right on, great post.

 

[1John2:4]

I appreciate you. I believe folks should walk as they are convicted of. But I do believe that our 21st century, English, Greek influenced picture of the faith that began 2000 years ago in the ancient near east to a Semitic people has some context and history that is missing. We are "born into" a particular time, culture, and paradigm and if that culture and paradigm has a different mindset and it defines its words differently than the people they are trying to emulate, then we are missing some context and need to look outside of our paradigm. We simply leave food on the table that God has intended for us to eat when we only look through the lens we were raised in.

Brakhot and shalom to you and yours.

PS.... I have something I want to share with you. Can you send me a message and if you are not set up to, look me up on Facebook or something.

I think I get pm here I will never check it on FB. How is you Yom Kippur going?

 

[pat34lee]

Seriously, why are you trying to defend something you wrote that is not defendable. Someone may have taught you that, but where did he/she derive it from? The Israelites were slaves and I hardly believe those representing other countries would be teaming up with slaves.

Israel may have been kept as slaves, but they
left as conquerors. God defeated Pharaoh in
full sight of everyone.

Does a person have to be from a certain place to
represent it? Ask Hillary. If there were 70 nations
in the bible, then 70 random people could be chosen
by God to represent those nations.

 

[pat34lee]

Who was Paul's with? The Bible consistently indicates Jews. Read Acts.

Who was Paul teaching? Mostly Israelites and gentiles
in the diaspora who lived among pagans. When you
grow up a pagan, it takes time to change from living
like them and letting them influence you.

 

[pat34lee]

Those commands are not the same as the ones Jesus kept according to Jesus.

Jesus kept the full Torah, as it was meant to be kept.
Not only because he IS the living Torah, but because
he would have been an imperfect sacrifice if he had
broken the least of the laws. Useless.

 

[pat34lee]

Take the first 5 verses of chapter 3. If Paul is preaching the law for salvation concept why does he make such a statement? Look at chapter 5 where Paul says following the law is forsaking or making Jesus worthless.

Context. Following the law is our due to God.
Trying to follow it to be saved is what Paul is
talking about. That is all over the page I linked.


" Paul is writing to the Galatians. Before we think his statements apply to everyone in the entire world, we need to examine the context, examine other scriptures, and examine Paul's own practices to get a full understanding of what was intended. Otherwise we have Paul sending Timothy to the lake of fire by circumcising him "because of the Jews."

Paul is addressing the false 'good news of the circumcision,' so for someone to be circumcised by them was a sign of submission to that false doctrine, a doctrine so dangerous it could cause a man to lose his salvation. Paul himself did circumcise the son of a Gentile to prove he wasn't against circumcision, but he vigorously refuted anyone who taught this 'good news of the circumcision' which was always was a false doctrine.

The truth is that if we are in the Messiah Yahushua, whether we are circumcised or uncircumcised doesn't gain us salvation. To the contrary, if we use it (or any other commanded act) as attempt to replace the work of Messiah, we are putting ourselves under the law and separating ourselves from Yahushua. "