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How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?
- Thread starter bottomofsandal
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
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Before we go on, I would like to clear up one thing. I've been accused of not knowing what predestination is.
I did look it up on Strong's, and here is what it says -
- to predetermine, decide beforehand
- in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
- to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Since decree, foreordain, and appoint are used in the definition of predestination, please define these also.
I would like to insert your definition in the places you use predestination.
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Your explanation makes God out to be arbitrary (without any reason for those that are elected).
That really is enough reason to look for almost any explanation for God’s selection and I have given an excellent alternative that shows God is not arbitrary, while all you say is “God is not arbitrary” and give an explanation that says “God is arbitrary”.
“Those who Love God” are those that have accepted God’s forgiveness which thus enables them to Love: “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”, so yes they have become part of the group that is called out. This does not say: “God called out from among a group unwilling to accept his charity, a group to Love Him”, but those in the group of nonbelievers that are willing to accept charity (for whatever reason) will Love Him and have accepted the call.
My ideas show the perfect fair and just of God so there is no issue. God did predestined all those that accept His Love (charity) in the form of forgiveness would be forgiven.
It does not say: “God predestined the individuals He will call”, but those predestined (all those that accept His Love (Charity)) are called out, are justified, and glorified.
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Who would dare pretend to know the mind of God?
Tell us why it matters if God choose some and not others?
Are we to believe God's choice is self-contradictory to His nature?
Since some have disdain for God's choice as His Word clearly states,
the interpretation must be God chooses those who are able to choose Him.
That is self-election. Or foreseen faith. Or man's works saves and keeps.
What this pov cannot explain is why God elected/chose some to be better choosers.
What makes some men able to choose God if grace is not the catalyst and agent of change?
If God did not choose some men, are we really to believe that any man would choose God?
Calling God's choice "arbitrary" does not make it so, but only serves to elevate man's imaginary role in salvation.
Man is not the keeper and dispenser of God's effectual grace, neither is man the custodian of The Holy Spirit.
In any relationship someone has to make the first move. In salvation God reaches down. Man does not reach up.
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God has chosen to adopt all that accept his invitation, the same as the man who through the banquet had people accept and reject His invitation, but all were invited.
I am not in disagreement and do not think you are teaching fatalism, but you are teaching the nonbeliever cannot humbly accept pure charity even for selfish reasons.
We agree God Loves us while we were sinners, but limit the “us” to a very select few for some arbitrary reason, which makes God arbitrary and Love very weak, if compared to a God who loves everyone equally.
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Christ told us to “hate” our parent, but we are also to Love our parents, so when Deity uses the word “hate” it is not the opposite of Love and you both Love and hate the same person.
I am sure God hated the fact He would not be able to work with Esau, but that did not mean Esau was not saved by God. Where does it say God chose Esau for destruction?
There are several things about Pharaoh:
We know what solvents one person’s heart can harden another person’s heart, so it depends on the person’s reaction.
There can come a point in every nonbeliever, where there is nothing more God can do to help that person chose to turn for His help and only God knows when a person has reached that point. After the nonbeliever reaches that point they take on a different objective which will help other nonbelievers in their choice.
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Christ told us to “hate” our parent, but we are also to Love our parents, so when Deity uses the word “hate” it is not the opposite of Love and you both Love and hate the same person.
I am sure God hated the fact He would not be able to work with Esau, but that did not mean Esau was not saved by God. Where does it say God chose Esau for destruction?
There are several things about Pharaoh:
We know what solvents one person’s heart can harden another person’s heart, so it depends on the person’s reaction.
There can come a point in every nonbeliever, where there is nothing more God can do to help that person chose to turn for His help and only God knows when a person has reached that point. After the nonbeliever reaches that point they take on a different objective which will help other nonbelievers in their choice.
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
I'm quite purposefully not going to research a bunch of theologians and pick the definitions that I like best out of a bunch of professionals statements in order to make myself look like a professional theologian in order to impress anyone. Instead I will just answer off the top of my head as it were so that you will know what "I" mean by the terms.
I have no problem with what Strongs says about predestination.
What I mean by predestination is that everything is decided beforehand concerning the "destiny" of everything in God's creation.
What I mean by a decree would be an authoritative Word issued by a sovereign ruler that carries with it the necessary power to accomplish what is decreed to happen.
To ordain (appoint) something or someone is to state authoritatively exactly where they fit in the "order" of things. Foreordain has to do with the "ordering" of things that will happen in history. The order that they would fall out was determined before they happened or it seems before they even existed - thus "fore" ordination.
Something like that comes to mind. If they seem right then OK. If you have a favorite theologian you think has done a better job - we can look at how they put things in their words.
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Your first statement finds no biblical support. You're making it up to fit your narrative rather than let the scriptures speak for themselves. You are trying to make a parable into a theological stance. Parables do not work as you are trying to make them work. Go to Ephesians 1 to see what adoption is all about.
The nonbeliever is a rebel against God, of which both you and I once were. God chose to give us faith to believe by his grace, apart from anything we do.
What and whom God chooses will look arbitrary to us. We are not privy to the thoughts and choices of God. We must either trust God's sovereignty or we seek to usurp his authority and declare our thoughts to be above God's thoughts.
I will trust God's sovereign authority.
Ephesians 1
[5]God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.
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Bling I was reading that and it was funny you saying God 'hated' the fact He could not work with Esau.
Hebrews 12, makes this point about persuing holiness without which you will not see the Lord, then uses Esau as an example of that.
It says Esau found no place for repentance, that would be with God. Esau cried tears about his loss but he did not repent, his repentance was not genuine godly sorrow.
14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.
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2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Esau's sorrow was worldly sorrow, and it leads to death. The world has sorrow, look at all the suffering but it produce only death.
Godly sorrow means a sorrow they feel caused by God convicting a person of their sins and of believing in Christ, it is part of Him drawing people to Himself. And all those so drawn by Christ are being led to salvation, with the end result they are saved.
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Esau's sorrow was worldly sorrow, and it leads to death. The world has sorrow, look at all the suffering but it produce only death.
Godly sorrow means a sorrow they feel caused by God convicting a person of their sins and of believing in Christ, it is part of Him drawing people to Himself. And all those so drawn by Christ are being led to salvation, with the end result they are saved.
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Esau has this murderous rage in his heart, he will kill Jacob, so Jacob must leave.
v38 is Esau's worldly sorrow.
Jesus tells us to love our brother and do good to them that spitefully use you, but Esau is a murderer in his heart. He would be just like Cain if given the chance, and Cain John says was of the evil one and slew his brother Abel.
Genesis 27
37 Then Isaac answered and said to Esau, “Indeed I have made him your master, and all his brethren I have given to him as servants; with grain and wine I have sustained him. What shall I do now for you, my son?”
38 And Esau said to his father, “Have you only one blessing, my father? Bless me—me also, O my father!” And Esau lifted up his voice and wept.
41 So Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing with which his father blessed him, and Esau said in his heart, “The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then I will kill my brother Jacob.”
v38 is Esau's worldly sorrow.
Jesus tells us to love our brother and do good to them that spitefully use you, but Esau is a murderer in his heart. He would be just like Cain if given the chance, and Cain John says was of the evil one and slew his brother Abel.
Genesis 27
37 Then Isaac answered and said to Esau, “Indeed I have made him your master, and all his brethren I have given to him as servants; with grain and wine I have sustained him. What shall I do now for you, my son?”
38 And Esau said to his father, “Have you only one blessing, my father? Bless me—me also, O my father!” And Esau lifted up his voice and wept.
41 So Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing with which his father blessed him, and Esau said in his heart, “The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then I will kill my brother Jacob.”
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Not at all, and you are understanding is incorrect or I am not explaining good enough.
It is difficult for humans traveling down a limier time line to image a being outside of time, so you really need to think of how that would work.
God is not so much “deciding” what He will do but always consistently does the very best thing that can be done to help willing individuals fulfill their objective.
God’s grace is extended to everyone, but some will not accept it, so God is not going to force His grace on them (like with a shotgun wedding having God holding the shotgun.
This question shows how little you gasp of the concept of God being outside of time: “Doesn't this pov depict God as callous and sadistic by knowingly creating condemned men?”
The very “moment” God decides to make a being in God’s time frame that being is born, makes free will choices, dies and has gone to heaven or hell. The only stopping point (if we can even talk about it as a stopping point) is prior to God deciding to make a being, but if God decides not to make a being with free will choices He will not know the choices the individual would make but would only know the alternatives. There is really nothing to really know.
You might think of it like this: God know historically about every individual that has lived and will live, and history cannot be changed.
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Luke 14:26 “If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
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And this one verse relates to salvation and adoption, how???
Please, stop cherry picking verses out of context to create the illusion of a valid argument. It makes your comments look silly.
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Well, you should be able to reconcile your POV with the rest of the Bible. Verses that show very clearly that Jesus wants ALL to come to Him and be saved.
You believe that God says one thing about who He is in the Bible and then is another when it comes to predestination? That makes no sense. So don't act like your claim is fully supported because it is not, unless God would lie. But then you would have even more issues.
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It is you who defines "divine hate" as being not Loving at all and wanting to send to hell, but I have shown with this verse that Deity can use the word "hate", for hating someone we can also Love with Godly type Love.
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