Funny you say that since being predestined is all about God's grace that actually saves us. Before we were believers, we were predestined to be believers in the eyes of God.
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How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?
- Thread starter bottomofsandal
- Start date
Funny you say that since being predestined is all about God's grace that actually saves us. Before we were believers, we were predestined to be believers in the eyes of God.
yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Only from our viewpoint in time.
YHWH knew before HE CREATED THE UNIVERSE AND LIFE
what we would chose to do in our lifetime,
so 'predestined' from YHWH'S WORD simply means HE grants us PERFECTLY our choice(s).
When HE SAYS "Choose TODAY WHO you will follow" We then CHOOSE TODAY who we will follow -
HE already knew the answer
7000 years ago. Nothing surprises HIM.
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
Oh MY - I hardly know where to begin.
Give me some time with this one. In the mean time - please read through your post again and see if there is anything that you want to change before I comment.
I won't be insulting you if I can help it but it really is quite amazing in places - as usual.
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We agree: all mature adults start out as “unregenerate”, so the question is what allows God to regenerate some and not others.
The prodigal son story (whether speaking of an unregenerate or regenerate) shows us God’s “Love” for a very rebellious disobedient child, so God does not go after or send anyone after this child seemingly because the child is knowingly doing this sinning of his own free will desire to sin. In a dead state (by Christ’s definition) the prodigal son comes to his senses and for seemingly selfish reasons (the only reasons given) turns to his father.
The unregenerate following the same pattern as the prodigal son and thus gives us the reason why some are regenerated and others are not and that being because some humbly turn for God’s possible charity and others hang in there, pay the piper, and accept the punishment they fully deserve.
The Bible shows God’s concern for mankind, what you say God is concerned for only the elect, while I see in scripture God’s concern for everyone and when God talks about “whosoever” He is referring to whosoever and not just the ones God preselected. Those that accept will be the “elect”, but the “whosoever” applied to everyone.
Where in scripture does it say: “God has love only for some reprobates?”
Jesus said in John 12: 46 I have come as light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me.”
Jesus talks about people that hear (so it is not that they do not hear) but they do not keep. Jesus talks about people rejecting and not receiving which sounds like a choice they made, while other chose to accept.
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But.... God's grace is extended to all people. It says in God's Word that God wishes that ALL would be saved.
Now that doesn't sound like a God who predestines in the way that you think.
Again, God is Omnipresent and knows all. That does not mean that God predestines in that He chooses, but in that He knows already.
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He is of course talking of hearing.
Those who hear and do not keep His sayings, it shows there is no inward traction in their soul, they are not drawn to Christ by God.
There is hearing in the natural, and that type of hearing without obeying, means they are natural - carnally minded, unregenerate.
Those who hear God are of God, John 8:47, so then they must be regenerated as Jesus says, 'they are of God'. So they will then be obedient to what Christ is saying.
So hear must mean more than just hearing noises and words spoken out onto the air.
John 8, Jesus equates the hearing with being able to listen to what His words say with understanding.
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
“If God were your Father, you would love Me". must in context mean they are of God, so they hear Christ and so really means they are regenerated already by the Holy Spirit.
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Ephesians is addressed to and is talking about born again Christians and not talking about nonbelievers that become Christians.
See my post above.
God made Christians “alive” who were formally non-Christians, so they already accepted God’s charity.
Go back to the conversion of these Christian Ephesians and show me where God initiated their willingness to accept His charity and did not initiate some others in the same way refused to accept God’s charity? Yes, God “called” those that accepted the invitation, but God also “called” some that refused the invitation. Everyone that comes was called by God, it is the banquet that makes you alive.
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Mostly I am defining Godly type Love by everything Jesus said and did, but you can also use 1 Cor. 13 and 1 John 4.
So how would you define Godly type Love?
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Jesus is equating not hearing to those that do not act with nothing suggesting they did not get the message. Would it be fair/just to judge them if they did not understand what would judge them? It would be fair to "punish" them for not doing, but would it be just to punish them for not knowing?
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Maybe it seems arbitrary to us, but not Him. It does say to those who are the called according to His purpose.
This is saying the same idea as Ephesians 1.
Those who love God are those who have been called according to His purpose, because John says we love because He first loved us.
How much of this do you really believe? Do you find this idea of being predestined and called to be justified and glorified disturbing to you idea of fairness?
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
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Bling,
God's predestination of souls does not mean humans don't think and act on events we encounter. It means that no human willingly comes to God and chooses God to be His father. It is for the adult to choose whom to adopt, not the child. The Bible is very clear on this issue.
You seem to think that predestination is akin to an atheistic fatalism where nature has already determined each act the universe will make. This is not a correct thought on your part.
God calls his creation, good. Sin makes humankind bad. God loves his creation. God hates sin. God is not obligated to redeem sinners even though he is their Creator. Judgment falls on sinners.
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Romans 9
Paul uses two teaching methods that are taught in secular philosophy classes and are used even in secular classes as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.
The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.
The main question in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate).
Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau?
Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?
If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?
That is what is at issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.
Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual, but is this “letter” being written to non-Christians?
Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?
Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in the first century in Rome?
Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?
The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison.
How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.
Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.
If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is a great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since the left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.
To understand this is Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul also points out the common can become the honored vessel.
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
What God predestines is not “based” on man’s choices. But it includes the choices that men make.
What God predestines is based on what He wants to accomplish in this age and in the particular circumstance in this age that we are considering.
Man’s choices are based on man’s nature and individual inclinations depending on the circumstances he finds himself in. What God has predestined him to choose does not usually enter into his choosing process since there is no way to know the answer to that until the choice is made and what is predestined is thus revealed.
“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever…” Deuteronomy 29:29
If you were God and I lived and moved and had my being in you your predestination of what I do may be able to be brought to past by you. But – of course – you are not.
If your omnipresence and providential orchestration of all of your creation was brought to bear on me every second of my life your predestination of what I do may be able to be brought to past by you. But – of course – they are not.
If “all things” consisted in your Word your predestination of what I do may be able to be brought to past by you. But – of course – they do not.
The Word of God is God and is thus quite a bit different from the Word of anyone we can imagine. When John wrote the following he was, no doubt uttering the understatement of all of history.
“And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.” John 21:25
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.” Isaiah 55:8-11
Having made sure that we understand up front that when we are talking about the creator and sustainer of the universe it is quite different from any other person making a decree – we can consider your example in my next post.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
From a human worldly point of view yes.
Even Capricious , Scandalous, and Wrong and Evil (from a worldly point of view).
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Did God hate Esau and love Jacob? Did God choose one and reject the other? Was God unloving to choose one for the promise and the other for destruction? Was God unloving to harden Pharaoh's heart instead of save Pharoah?
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God will give you the new heart if He loves you so that you will love Him too.
Now to Israel are the promises made, but not all Israel are of Israel. You must be one of the called according to His purposes to be of the true Israel.
For we read with most of them He was displeased and swore in His extreme anger they would never enter into His rest, and so He scattered their bones in the wilderness. So He did not love them all, since the ones He loved He changed their hearts so they would also love Him back.
Deuteronomy 30:6
And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
Deuteronomy 7:6-8New King James Version (NKJV)
6 “For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. 7 The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples;8 but because the Lord loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
God is speaking to an audience inside of a larger audience. And not all of the larger audience are His people.
Romans 9
Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
The point is God loves whom He will Love and hates whom He will hate.
Now to Israel are the promises made, but not all Israel are of Israel. You must be one of the called according to His purposes to be of the true Israel.
For we read with most of them He was displeased and swore in His extreme anger they would never enter into His rest, and so He scattered their bones in the wilderness. So He did not love them all, since the ones He loved He changed their hearts so they would also love Him back.
Deuteronomy 30:6
And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
Deuteronomy 7:6-8New King James Version (NKJV)
6 “For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. 7 The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples;8 but because the Lord loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
God is speaking to an audience inside of a larger audience. And not all of the larger audience are His people.
Romans 9
Israel’s Rejection and God’s Purpose
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
The point is God loves whom He will Love and hates whom He will hate.
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EmSw
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Oh MY - I hardly know where to begin.
Give me some time with this one. In the mean time - please read through your post again and see if there is anything that you want to change before I comment.
I won't be insulting you if I can help it but it really is quite amazing in places - as usual.
Nah, I'm not going to change anything, but thanks for the opportunity anyway.
I just ask you be consistent.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
That is one point, of many.
There is a much more important point in YHWH'S(GOD'S) WORD, PLAN, PURPOSE, and Y'SHUA.
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