How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[Marvin Knox]

It makes no difference what you choose to do, it will be according to my predestination for you. You can argue with my predestination, or you can accept my predestination, but, it will be as I pre-determine. If you choose to eat chicken today, that's my predestination for you. If you choose to eat something else, that's my predestination for you also. You see, I have all bases covered, for whatever you choose to eat, I predestined it. You can change your mind a hundred times, but it will always be according to my predestination for you.

Exactly so.

If I change my mind a hundred times - what I finally choose will have been well considered indeed.

Once a choice is made (or an event or whatever else one is considering concerning predestination has occurred) you can rest assured that it not only didn't catch God by surprise (omniscience) it was also predestined to happen (see James chapter 1 concerning God's "decretive" will). i.e. - His Word went forth and accomplished whatever God intended Him to accomplish - just as the Word of God says all things happen.

You don't need to know what I've predestined, for that is only for me to know.

Exactly - just rest assured that whatever happens it is (as one of my old pastors was fond of saying) it was all "Father filtered".

But know this, whatever you choose, establishes the fact I've predestined your choice what to eat.

Exactly! If you were God and I had my being in you - that would be true. That's exactly as I said.

Notice though that you said that the "choice" was still mine - and you are right about that.

I see how this works. I just need to write something down and it's truth. Let me explain. I will write this, and this establishes what I write as truth.

If you were God who posessed all wisdom and who could not lie - that certainly would be true.

Just because I write it down, it is established, and many will believe what I wrote, because I, a man, wrote it down. Many won't believe what I wrote;

That's the way these things work. There are many false teachers and we need to compare what they teach against the Word of God like the noble minded Bereans did.

You should do the same with the writings in the WCF - as I and thousands of others have. In that particular case - their reasoning is there for all to see in the so called "proof texts" which they supply. Which of those do you disagree with?

...... that is because I predestined them not to believe, and have established their damnation for not believing.

That might well be true if they passed out of this life in the condition of unbelief (assuming we are using you as an example of God).

But notice it is their belief right up until the end and not God's or anyone else belief. Therefore they will answer for it.

Now, don't use any reason or rationale to try explain my predestination, for it is far above your understanding. Just accept it Marvin. Let me give you little light into my wisdom Marvin. I know in my omniscience that you won't believe what I wrote above. Therefore, I am going to predestine that you don't believe me. And you will suffer any consequence of not believing. Remember, it's all your fault you don't believe, and I get glory for predestining you not to believe.

Again - any illustration like this falls down because we keeping using a human being as an example of God.

Having said that - your statement really isn't too far off the mark.

It would have been my choice regardless of it being destined to happen. I will answer for my choice.

It would have happened for a good reason though and God will get the glory in the end for His wisdom.

As with the choices made by Joseph's brothers - they meant it for evil while God meant it for good.

The decrees of God are always good even though He has chosen to bring those good things to past through the evil of men and angels.

As is usual in these things - we are starting to get down to the idea that you (and others like you) simply do not like having your being in God. Shades of Lucifer's desire to be independent of God.

TO BE CONTINUED:

 

[sdowney717]

Here is another distinguishing verse on the love of God.
Hebrews 12:6 [Full Chapter]
For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.”

 

[Marvin Knox]

Good, now you understand. Your choice not to believe what I wrote establishes my predestination for that choice of yours. My wisdom of far beyond yours, so don't even think about questioning my predestination for you. Just accept it.

If we can drop the illustration for a moment - that first sentence is correct.

The second, however, would be contrary to what He says that He considers noble character (see the Bereans in the Book of Acts for an example).

I will also give you the remedy for your unbelief of what I wrote. If you will believe the Hindu version of salvation, you will be forgiven of your predestined unbelief and live forever. Since I know you won't believe that either, I will predestine you to eternal damnation also. I will not choose you for life Marvin, for you are an unbelieving sinner and deserve eternal damnation. Marvin, I have opened the kingdom for you. Just believe what I said and be saved. But, I predestined you not to believe, so these words aren't for you. I wrote them to show you of your zero chance of eternal life. But remember, you are the one who freely choose to not believe what I wrote, so it's all your fault.

This all silly drivel that I just don't have time to sort through so I won't.

I implore you to put away your gospel of predestination and trust that God determines according to your ways and deeds in this life, and not before you have any ways and deeds.

"Gospel of predestination"?????

What on earth does that mean. An intramural discussion of rather advanced soteriological doctrine is not the gospel nor have I ever claimed that it was.

I - just as do Calvinists in general - believe and teach that "God determines according to your ways and deeds in this life". He has decreed that He will do so and that those interactions will form the basis for their damnation or glorification.

We've been over that before. God uses means to bring to past what He had predestined to occur.

We are covering the same old ground that I have corrected you about before.

Calvinists have stated clearly in most cases what they believe and why they believe it lines up with the Word of God.

I have no problem understanding how they mesh perfectly. But then - I'm perfectly happy being part of God's plan and have no interest in being independent of Him.

If you however simply say that you don't know how these paradoxes can be truth and not contradictory - we can agree to disagree here.

The bottom line here seems to be that you do not see how predestining all things by God cannot automatically equate to coercive scripting of the actions of the part of the creation which has been created in the image of God and given the gift of considered choice. It doesn't equate to that of course either logically or in the teaching of Calvinism.

I can't force you to think logically or even lead you by the hand through the process since you have such an axe to grind in the matter that it would be to no avail.

But concerning what is and is not taught by Calvinists I can and will take an active part for what it will be worth.

If you misstate what Calvinists believe again in the future I will feel free to call you on it.

If you state correctly what they believe and merely tell everyone that you don't see how the logic goes - then I will chalk it up to a lack of logical skills on your part.

 

[EmSw]

Here is another distinguishing verse on the love of God.
Hebrews 12:6 [Full Chapter]
For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.”

Do you believe God tells us to do something that He doesn't?

Luke 6:27
But I say to you who hear: love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

 

[sdowney717]

Do you believe God tells us to do something that He doesn't?

Luke 6:27
But I say to you who hear: love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

The whole passage, note in v35, He tells us to love our enemies and do them good.
Then Christ says "God is kind to the unfaithful and evil", but it does not say God loves them.
God's mercy is that the evil and wicked are not instantly consumed, their eternal judgement is certain, just on the back burner for the time being.


27 “But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.

32 “But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

 

[ToBeLoved]

He is of course talking of hearing.

Those who hear and do not keep His sayings, it shows there is no inward traction in their soul, they are not drawn to Christ by God.
There is hearing in the natural, and that type of hearing without obeying, means they are natural - carnally minded, unregenerate.

Those who hear God are of God, John 8:47, so then they must be regenerated as Jesus says, 'they are of God'. So they will then be obedient to what Christ is saying.

So hear must mean more than just hearing noises and words spoken out onto the air.

John 8, Jesus equates the hearing with being able to listen to what His words say with understanding.
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

“If God were your Father, you would love Me". must in context mean they are of God, so they hear Christ and so really means they are regenerated already by the Holy Spirit.

Coming to God is not about obedience, it is about faith and belief. Then God can work with us through the Holy Spirit and His Word.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The whole passage, note in v35, He tells us to love our enemies and do them good.
Then Christ says "God is kind to the unfaithful and evil", but it does not say God loves them.
God's mercy is that the evil and wicked are not instantly consumed, their eternal judgement is certain, just on the back burner for the time being.


27 “But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.

32 “But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

What God's Word clearly does say is that He loved us BEFORE we loved Him. And God so loved the world.

We overtime learn to love God with all our hearts, soul and mind. Most people are not that way when they are saved.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Coming to God is not about obedience, it is about faith and belief. Then God can work with us through the Holy Spirit and His Word.

So then, if that is so,
what does someone who is a son of disobedience do
if they turn to Y'SHUA(JESUS) to find life ?
Do they keep obeying satan ?
Do they stop following satan ?
Do they start obeying Y'SHUA (JESUS) ?
They cannot obey both JESUS and satan , - they will love one, and hate the other, no matter which one they obey .

Whichever one they obey, that is their god, their father. according to Y'SHUA(JESUS).

 

[EmSw]

The whole passage, note in v35, He tells us to love our enemies and do them good.
Then Christ says "God is kind to the unfaithful and evil", but it does not say God loves them.
God's mercy is that the evil and wicked are not instantly consumed, their eternal judgement is certain, just on the back burner for the time being.

I don't think I read God hates them either. I don't think I read all the other things you say either.

How can man love his enemies if God doesn't?

27 “But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.

32 “But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

Do you love your enemies that God hates?

 

[EmSw]

So then, if that is so,
what does someone who is a son of disobedience do
if they turn to Y'SHUA(JESUS) to find life ?
Do they keep obeying satan ?
Do they stop following satan ?
Do they start obeying Y'SHUA (JESUS) ?
They cannot obey both JESUS and satan , - they will love one, and hate the other, no matter which one they obey .

Whichever one they obey, that is their god, their father. according to Y'SHUA(JESUS).

Apparently, loving one and hating the other is a characteristic of God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

..."All God's dealings with his creatures are regulated by wisdom which cannot err, and perfect justice. He is indeed just and right;".... BibleHub

Cross References
Genesis 18:25
"Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?"

Deuteronomy 7:9
"Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Deuteronomy 32:15
"But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked-- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek-- Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.

Deuteronomy 32:30
"How could one chase a thousand, And two put ten thousand to flight, Unless their Rock had sold them, And the LORD had given them up?

2 Samuel 22:3
My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.

2 Samuel 22:31
"As for God, His way is blameless; The word of the LORD is tested; He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him.

2 Chronicles 19:7
"Now then let the fear of the LORD be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the LORD our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe."

Job 8:3
"Does God pervert justice? Or does the Almighty pervert what is right?

Job 34:10
"Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong.
Treasury of Scripture

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

 

[EmSw]

Deuteronomy 32:15
"But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked-- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek-- Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.

That's an interesting verse jeff. I found Jeshurun to mean 'upright one', a symbolic name for Jerusalem describing her ideal character, according to Strong's.

We also see that God 'made' him. Again, Strong's says 'made' means appointed, ordained, prepared, produced, fashioned, put in order, worked, brought about, among other meanings.

We see two things here. Jerusalem, in his upright character, had grown fat and thick. He forsook God, who had done His work in him. The work God started was not accomplished by Jeshurun's actions.

Also, we see eternal security was not found in Jeshurun. He had forsaken the God who worked in him. He scorned the Rock of his salvation.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That's an interesting verse jeff. I found Jeshurun to mean 'upright one', a symbolic name for Jerusalem describing her ideal character, according to Strong's.

We also see that God 'made' him. Again, Strong's says 'made' means appointed, ordained, prepared, produced, fashioned, put in order, worked, brought about, among other meanings.

We see two things here. Jerusalem, in his upright character, had grown fat and thick. He forsook God, who had done His work in him. The work God started was not accomplished by Jeshurun's actions.

Also, we see eternal security was not found in Jeshurun. He had forsaken the God who worked in him. He scorned the Rock of his salvation.

GOOD ! (I wasn't sure anyone would read the SCRIPTURE )

YHWH'S WORD IS ALWAYS RIGHT AND PERFECT, PERFECTING THE SOUL.....

 

[EmSw]

GOOD ! (I wasn't sure anyone would read the SCRIPTURE )

YHWH'S WORD IS ALWAYS RIGHT AND PERFECT, PERFECTING THE SOUL.....

Shoot yeah. You won't find this verse in hardly any of man's writings.

 

[bling]

To whom much is given, much is required.
What is given one that is different than another is often a mystery just because it is not spoken about or consciously known.

Every mature adult is given whatever he needs to make a fair (equal) choice to accept or reject God’s charity, which would be the only fair way to do it.

Some have much more opportunity for "HEARING" YHWH than others, outwardly (by circumstances).
Yet in the most devilish of places on earth,
whoever seeks YHWH finds HIM, and there are some from every country who find HIM.
Meanwhile, "HEARING" is rejected by many, not sought and not popular, so YHWH HIMSELF sent a famine of "HEARING" the WORD OF YHWH. This too is hidden (from public view), though the results are seen by the public.

Paul reminds us in Romans: there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles when it comes to salvation. Things we might perceive as being helpful and things we might perceive as being handicaps can just be in our perception of them.

The lowliest mature adult on earth can humbly turn to His Creator to accept God’s charity.

In the parables of the banquet the servants first go and invite people of means, who choose not to accept the invitation, so the servant look further and harder for anyone who might accept the invitation.

 

[bling]

Funny you say that since being predestined is all about God's grace that actually saves us. Before we were believers, we were predestined to be believers in the eyes of God.

In the “eyes of God” all our autonomous free will choices and beliefs were made at the time He decided to create us, which could have been before the beginning of time, so God did not “predestine” our beliefs, but knew what we chose to believe. God predestined/determined before time began what He would do with those that did believe.

 

[bling]

He is of course talking of hearing.

Those who hear and do not keep His sayings, it shows there is no inward traction in their soul, they are not drawn to Christ by God.
There is hearing in the natural, and that type of hearing without obeying, means they are natural - carnally minded, unregenerate.

Those who hear God are of God, John 8:47, so then they must be regenerated as Jesus says, 'they are of God'. So they will then be obedient to what Christ is saying.

So hear must mean more than just hearing noises and words spoken out onto the air.

John 8, Jesus equates the hearing with being able to listen to what His words say with understanding.
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

“If God were your Father, you would love Me". must in context mean they are of God, so they hear Christ and so really means they are regenerated already by the Holy Spirit.

Hearing seems to be spoken of both ways: the message is communicated (with the person unwilling to obey) and hearing with the desire to positively react to the message.

Jesus in John 8, is talking to a group of Jews who “Believed in Him” John 8:31, but wanted to kill him. That is not the average nonbeliever, since they do not believe in Him. Jesus talks very sternly to this group who know He is from God (believe) and yet want to kill Him, which is not the average nonbeliever.

 

[sdowney717]

Hearing seems to be spoken of both ways: the message is communicated (with the person unwilling to obey) and hearing with the desire to positively react to the message.

Jesus in John 8, is talking to a group of Jews who “Believed in Him” John 8:31, but wanted to kill him. That is not the average nonbeliever, since they do not believe in Him. Jesus talks very sternly to this group who know He is from God (believe) and yet want to kill Him, which is not the average nonbeliever.

They believed in Him, sort of a partial belief, they definitely did not trust Him or like Him at all, yet Christ tells them they are of Satan, not of God and tells them they hate Christ, says they do not love Him. Christ basically tells them the truth about their relationships, and they do not belong to Him but the devil.

 

[bottomofsandal]

In the “eyes of God” all our autonomous free will choices and beliefs were made at the time He decided to create us, which could have been before the beginning of time, so God did not “predestine” our beliefs, but knew what we chose to believe. God predestined/determined before time began what He would do with those that did believe.

Interesting. So, God foresees faith choices in the future and responds accordingly?

It would appear then that God's grace is NOT really given to all men, but only these elect?

Doesn't this pov depict God as callous and sadistic by knowingly creating condemned men?

 

[EmSw]

They believed in Him, sort of a partial belief, they definitely did not trust Him or like Him at all, yet Christ tells them they are of Satan, not of God and tells them they hate Christ, says they do not love Him. Christ basically tells them the truth about their relationships, and they do not belong to Him but the devil.

Why do you say 'partial' belief? When the Bible says many believed on Him, do you not think it's the truth? In verse 31, it says, 'Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him...' Yet, you want to add 'partial' belief. Why? Do you feel the need to add this to confirm your belief?