Once Saved, Always Saved?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why is it everyone i meet that is out there,healing the sick,preaching the gospel,driving out devils,baptising in his name and making more deciples..do not adhere to osas

Because we don't even think of it. There's no reason to.

 

[Alithis]

Because we don't even think of it. There's no reason to.

Ahhh you say so much in so few words my friend.

 

[Alithis]

Can a true Christian sin or not?

Conclusion

There is no contradiction. What is happening is that John is saying that the one who is born again does not habitually abide in sin. He may fall into it, but he does not practice it as a lifestyle. The nuances of the Greek language are not carried over to the English, but when we understand what is happening we then see there is no problem.


Finally, any Christian who would say that he does not sin anymore fails to agree with 1 John 1:8 which says, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us." He would then be self-decieved.

You throw in yet another new topic .base it on a few sentances out of an entire letter and miss the point.
But you begin with "can a christian sin ..?
Of course they can they have the ability to do anything they make up thier mind todo.they dont do an act the know to be sin by accident..they choose to do it.
But john goes on to say...if they are born of God they will not continue to practice it ..they will cease.
Your just throwing around traditional church one liners ...you give the advice to others to go study the word ...go read the letter of 1 john and remember..he did not write it with chapter or verse..dont stop at the man added pauses..read it all as the single letter it is.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Lol so many wrongful assumptions in this post it would take another thread to adress them all.
You identify as nazerene.. Do you know their statment of beliefs ?
"We believe that the finally impenitent are hopelessly and eternally lost."
A man made organization nicknamed "church" is not the source of truth..Jesus is by his holy Spirit. And He,the holy spirit will lead you into all truth..
Why is it everyone i meet that is out there,healing the sick,preaching the gospel,driving out devils,baptising in his name and making more deciples..do not adhere to osas .and those i meet who attend thier christion sunday clubs but do not go out and do the above things..argue for osas.
Interesting observing the days of my youthfullness in others.
What i share now i did not always share,i once shared more liberally..but that was before i was delivered from religios spirits and bought to godly repentance and began to obey the Gospel and do the will of God by his spirit in me willing it to be so. God is never the dictator.he awaits our willful obedience.

No assumptions. Just evidence in your remarks concerning at least Romans 8. And your denial of eternal life and salvation.

I think one of the great injustices to the truth of Jesus ministry in the three years he delivered Gods word to a fallen world, is when fallen people adopted an acronym to compress the truth of his good news; OSAS.
It is then treated as a slogan. Something to be argued against, dismissed for its origin being in a person who came up with the conceptualized good news in four simple words. Once Saved Always Saved.

But it isn't as easy to dismiss the entire gospel and that in itself is what gave life to the acronym, generated from the "slogan" itself. Jesus died to bring the good news of eternal life to the world. And the idea promoted by those who would do away with his mission and claim that someone can be unsaved, takes more words than I am willing to spend.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Alithis said: ↑
Why is it everyone i meet that is out there,healing the sick,preaching the gospel,driving out devils,baptising in his name and making more deciples..do not adhere to osas

We have only your word that you've met such people. When your words deny eternal life and salvation in Christ, it is easy to realize no one who knows Christ would ever claim they can be unsaved.

 

[Alithis]

And your denial of eternal life and salvation.

Did not read your post..as it started with this false accusation.
No such denial has been made .
Not even remotly.
How are we to read your post seriously when you start one with such an outragious accusation .

 

[Alithis]

We have only your word that you've met such people. When your words deny eternal life and salvation in Christ, it is easy to realize no one who knows Christ would ever claim they can be unsaved.

You said you were going to ignore me now,,please display some integrity in your words.

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

Are you implying these scriptures do not exist ?
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: - Hebrews 6

Yes, and if they shall fall away it would be impossible to renew them to repentance, because they cannot crucify Christ afresh and have put him to an open shame. Mocking his original sacrifice. The verse is reiterating an argument against perfectionist doctrine, not for it.

and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.

^ This them also goes along with what Peter was saying in 1 Peter 3:18

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

Stating he only died once for all sins. If a man/woman were to fall away at all, as in truly lose real salvation, than you also have to believe that the person in question could NEVER get saved again. They would be forever reprobate.

Epesians 4:13 also explains the process of sanctification which is a work in progress until Christ return

"until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ"

Until we attain the unity of faith, knowledge of the Son of God and to be MATURED manhood up to the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ.

This again does not support a perfectionist worldview, but rather salvation that is immediately possessed once Christ is trusted and throughout a Christians life he will continue to grow and mature. A perfectionist who is immediately sinless doesn't need growth or maturity. He wouldn't even need a newly resurrected body upon Christ return. I don't even KNOW how a perfectionist could fall away from the faith, that in of itself makes no sense. Also, why would we need discipleship with each other and lift each other up daily. Why would iron need to sharpen iron? If it's already perfect there would be no need for those things. Paul understood this when he said this about sin in Romans 7:15

"For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."

This is just one of the verses that Paul talks about sin in his own life and understanding sanctification.

I also like this verse below

2 Timothy 2:13

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself"

If we believe not or we fail on our selves he still remains faithful because he cannot deny himself (Christ sacrifice)


So, repentance is an acknowledgement of sins committed against God and an earnest seeking of forgiveness, but it's also part of a growth process of sanctification. Growing closer to God and learning more about his statutes and how to obey him. Sometimes, we find ourselves convicted AFTER salvation of things we did not once know were sin. We also can't forget the sin of omission. Those sins that are committed when you know God is telling you to do one thing and you do the other, or when you could do something right for something/someone, but decide to stay silent. Your perfectionist beliefs are only holding up and magnifying an imperfect human claiming unattainable perfection, rather than exalting a living creator who dwells inside of us and orders our path and leads us to all truth. He does this, because we don't immediately come to "all" truth once we accept Christ. We don't immediately understand where God specifically want's us once we accept Christ.

I know the verses man and you probably didn't read the entirety of my last post, but I wasn't always OSAS. I will leave a link here at the bottom that you probably won't read, but i hope you do. I will warn you that the publication in question is of Calvinist origins and I'm in no way a Calvinist, but the article in question is solid. It's nice and small, so you don't have to spend all day reading it, unlike my post.

https://www.gotquestions.org/sinless-perfection.html

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

It is incumbent on the Saints to renounce false teachings wherever they arrive and intend, either purposefully or otherwise, to spread a false doctrine to a fallen people so that they doubt. Or, do not seek the truth of Christ. God be with his children.
Is Our Security Eternal?
Thursday, May 18th, 2006

• Once Saved Always Saved

Q. I was having a conversation with a friend who believes that people can lose their salvation. I believe in once saved, always saved. She used Saul as an example of someone who was saved, then lost their salvation. I know I still believe in OSAS, but how do I explain this. Does 1 Samuel 28:19 prove that Saul is saved, when Samuel says tomorrow he will be with him “Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”

A. The problem with your friend’s Saul argument is that it doesn’t take into account the unique relationship the Church has with the Holy Spirit. Nowhere in the Old Testament is the Holy Spirit described as being sealed within a person, but it’s a promise to everyone in the Church.

After sinning with Bathsheba, David pleaded with the Lord not to take the Holy Spirit from him (Psalm 51:11). You and I don’t pray that prayer because God can’t take his Holy Spirit from us. He’s sealed inside us as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.

There are so many theological problems with the notion of a person becoming “unsaved” that it would be rather like the physical problems you would encounter in trying to become “unborn.”

It implies that the Lord doesn’t really know those who are His like He claims to, that you don’t have the authority to become a child of God, that He can’t keep those the Father gives Him like He promises, and that the Holy Spirit can be “unsealed” from within us, meaning He wasn’t really a guarantee of our inheritance afterall.

It means that although salvation is a free gift given to who ever asks regardless of merit, the Lord will take it back if He later discovers that we didn’t deserve it.

Of course that means that the Lord can change His mind about us, implying He doesn’t really know the end from the beginning, that we’re not really a new creation in violation of Paul’s argument in 2nd Corinthians 5:17, that there is condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus in violation of his argument in Romans 8:1, and that something can separate us from the love of God in violation of his promise in Romans 8:38-39.....[continues]

 

[masmpg]

Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
​

Great study. It is very obvious that we can turn our backs on God. Many who believe and teach once saved always saved use the metaphor of the father son relationship thinking that the Father will never leave the son, but they never think about the son leaving the Father like the prodigal son which is a great lesson on our relationship with God. The prodigal was once saved, then lost then saved again.
Peter tells us also in:
2Peter:2:20&21: "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

I would love to know how you can manage to crucify Christ twice, as this is what is required for anyone to believe someone can lose what was once true salvation. Hebrews 6 which I quoted in one of my more recent posts points this out and most versions will say that if it were possible for them to fall away, it would then be impossible to renew them (lost salvation) again to repentance (saved again), and that they would put Christ to an open shame which is impossible. I would love to talk more about the story of the prodigal son, because I've heard tons of ideas about the meaning of this story and only one them thought it was about lost salvation. Seeing how if you lose it, you can never get back, I wouldn't be worried about it. Now you're just a reprobate lol. The loss of salvation also implies if not directly states that the Holy Spirit is a failure and that Christ sacrifice is not enough (that's the open shame again), as it's the Holy Spirit's job to seal an individual to the day of redemption and begin and continue the sanctification process. Any other belief denies Christ complete work on the cross and in my honest opinion blasphemes the Holy Spirit. So, I'd be careful with that.

Here is a piece from an earlier post.

and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.

^ This them also goes along with what Peter was saying in 1 Peter 3:18

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

Stating he only died once for all sins. If a man/woman were to fall away at all, as in truly lose real salvation, than you also have to believe that the person in question could NEVER get saved again. They would be forever reprobate.

I'll post this verse again, because I like it so much.

2 Timothy 2:13

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself"

If we believe not or we fail on our selves he still remains faithful because he cannot deny himself (Christ sacrifice)

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

I would love to know how you can manage to crucify Christ twice, as this is what is required for anyone to believe someone can lose what was once true salvation. Hebrews 6 which I quoted in one of my more recent posts points this out and most versions will say that if it were possible for them to fall away, it would then be impossible to renew them (lost salvation) again to repentance (saved again), and that they would put Christ to an open shame which is impossible. I would love to talk more about the story of the prodigal son, because I've heard tons of ideas about the meaning of this story and only one them thought it was about lost salvation. Seeing how if you lose it, you can never get back, I wouldn't be worried about it. Now you're just a reprobate lol. The loss of salvation also implies if not directly states that the Holy Spirit is a failure and that Christ sacrifice is not enough (that's the open shame again), as it's the Holy Spirit's job to seal an individual to the day of redemption and begin and continue the sanctification process. Any other belief denies Christ complete work on the cross and in my honest opinion blasphemes the Holy Spirit. So, I'd be careful with that.

Here is a piece from an earlier post.

and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.

^ This them also goes along with what Peter was saying in 1 Peter 3:18

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

Stating he only died once for all sins. If a man/woman were to fall away at all, as in truly lose real salvation, than you also have to believe that the person in question could NEVER get saved again. They would be forever reprobate.

I'll post this verse again, because I like it so much.

2 Timothy 2:13

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself"

If we believe not or we fail on our selves he still remains faithful because he cannot deny himself (Christ sacrifice)

Finding commentary about Hebrews 6 is easy on the Net. Just don't go to those sites that are of the false doctrines that claim the Saints can be unsaved. Or lose their eternal salvation.


Commentary on Hebrews 6:1-8

(Read Hebrews 6:1-8)

Every part of the truth and will of God should be set before all who profess the gospel, and be urged on their hearts and consciences. We should not be always speaking about outward things; these have their places and use, but often take up too much attention and time, which might be better employed. The humbled sinner who pleads guilty, and cries for mercy, can have no ground from this passage to be discouraged, whatever his conscience may accuse him of. Nor does it prove that any one who is made a new creature in Christ, ever becomes a final apostate from him. The apostle is not speaking of the falling away of mere professors, never convinced or influenced by the gospel. Such have nothing to fall away from, but an empty name, or hypocritical profession. Neither is he speaking of partial declinings or backslidings. Nor are such sins meant, as Christians fall into through the strength of temptations, or the power of some worldly or fleshly lust. But the falling away here mentioned, is an open and avowed renouncing of Christ, from enmity of heart against him, his cause, and people, by men approving in their minds the deeds of his murderers, and all this after they have received the knowledge of the truth, and tasted some of its comforts. Of these it is said, that it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance. Not because the blood of Christ is not sufficient to obtain pardon for this sin; but this sin, in its very nature, is opposite to repentance and every thing that leads to it. If those who through mistaken views of this passage, as well as of their own case, fear that there is no mercy for them, would attend to the account given of the nature of this sin, that it is a total and a willing renouncing of Christ, and his cause, and joining with his enemies, it would relieve them from wrong fears. We should ourselves beware, and caution others, of every approach near to a gulf so awful as apostacy; yet in doing this we should keep close to the word of God, and be careful not to wound and terrify the weak, or discourage the fallen and penitent. Believers not only taste of the word of God, but they drink it in. And this fruitful field or garden receives the blessing. But the merely nominal Christian, continuing unfruitful under the means of grace, or producing nothing but deceit and selfishness, was near the awful state above described; and everlasting misery was the end reserved for him. Let us watch with humble caution and prayer as to ourselves.[more]

 

[DoubtfulSalvation]

Finding commentary about Hebrews 6 is easy on the Net. Just don't go to those sites that are of the false doctrines that claim the Saints can be unsaved. Or lose their eternal salvation.


Commentary on Hebrews 6:1-8

(Read Hebrews 6:1-8)

Every part of the truth and will of God should be set before all who profess the gospel, and be urged on their hearts and consciences. We should not be always speaking about outward things; these have their places and use, but often take up too much attention and time, which might be better employed. The humbled sinner who pleads guilty, and cries for mercy, can have no ground from this passage to be discouraged, whatever his conscience may accuse him of. Nor does it prove that any one who is made a new creature in Christ, ever becomes a final apostate from him. The apostle is not speaking of the falling away of mere professors, never convinced or influenced by the gospel. Such have nothing to fall away from, but an empty name, or hypocritical profession. Neither is he speaking of partial declinings or backslidings. Nor are such sins meant, as Christians fall into through the strength of temptations, or the power of some worldly or fleshly lust. But the falling away here mentioned, is an open and avowed renouncing of Christ, from enmity of heart against him, his cause, and people, by men approving in their minds the deeds of his murderers, and all this after they have received the knowledge of the truth, and tasted some of its comforts. Of these it is said, that it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance. Not because the blood of Christ is not sufficient to obtain pardon for this sin; but this sin, in its very nature, is opposite to repentance and every thing that leads to it. If those who through mistaken views of this passage, as well as of their own case, fear that there is no mercy for them, would attend to the account given of the nature of this sin, that it is a total and a willing renouncing of Christ, and his cause, and joining with his enemies, it would relieve them from wrong fears. We should ourselves beware, and caution others, of every approach near to a gulf so awful as apostacy; yet in doing this we should keep close to the word of God, and be careful not to wound and terrify the weak, or discourage the fallen and penitent. Believers not only taste of the word of God, but they drink it in. And this fruitful field or garden receives the blessing. But the merely nominal Christian, continuing unfruitful under the means of grace, or producing nothing but deceit and selfishness, was near the awful state above described; and everlasting misery was the end reserved for him. Let us watch with humble caution and prayer as to ourselves.[more]

Yes, I don't believe Hebrews 6 represents that you can lose salvation. Thank you for the commentary.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Yes, I don't believe Hebrews 6 represents that you can lose salvation. Thank you for the commentary.

No, it doesn't. I just like to cut off all chances of false pastors in the world incorporating Hebrews 6 as a means to support the false teaching that claims we can lose our eternal salvation.

I've read people try to say that the verses: 4.It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. , are proof of the Hebrew author saying just that. That eternal salvation is not eternal.

 

[Winken]

And just for the sake of souls here.

Cross References
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 1:12
But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God--

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father's side, has made Him known.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.

Hebrews 3:19
So we see that it was because of their unbelief that they were unable to enter.

1 John 3:23
And this is His commandment: that we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and we should love one another just as He commanded us.

1 John 4:9
This is how God's love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.

1 John 5:10
Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony God has given about His Son.
Treasury of Scripture
He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.



John 3:36 He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes …

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes on …

John 6:40,47 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees …

John 20:31 But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, …

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through …

Romans 8:1,34 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ …

1 John 5:12 He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life.

Thank You! Now to the proper translation: "4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who NO LONGER walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

 

[Alithis]

Because we don't even think of it. There's no reason to.

isnt it interesting .
i have faith in Jesus to save me when he returns .. -Jesus saves me, i don't . i have faith in him to do what he has promised .if i cast off that faith i will not receive the End of that faith . as i stand in faith i am being transformed , if i refuse to be obedient to that transforming power ,i am no longer walking in faith . and will not see the end of that faith .
once Jesus has returned and saved me ..i will be eternally saved . until then, i stand in faith on his faith .

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

i stand in faith on his faith .

Amein and HalleluYAH !
Yes! HIS FAITHFULNESS IS PERFECT AND COMPLETE !
We willingly and joyously in peace and with our whole heart TRUST in HIS FAITHFULNESS, not our own, by grace granted us from the FATHER IN HEAVEN , YHWH ELOHIM SOVEREIGN.

TRUST AND RELY ON HIM always, every day. TRUST AND RELY. TRUST AND RELY. (see the translations that show this - trust and rely. It faithfully shines LIGHT on HIS DELIGHT IN US WHO TRUST AND RELY ON HIM.
And what happens to those who don't TRUST AND RELY ON HIM. GRACE AND ALL.

 

[Johnas]

Christ had to come because his people, my people, the Hebrews, ALSO believed in "Eternal Security". It was for this belief, that many of them became the kind of people they were: Self righteous, judgmental, unloving, unforgiving, merciless, gossiping, self interested... SO argue all you want over what you think scripture is saying, but know that those of us that have been given to see your fruits, know your arguments are in vein.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Christ had to come because his people, my people, the Hebrews, ALSO believed in "Eternal Security". It was for this belief, that many of them became the kind of people they were: Self righteous, judgmental, unloving, unforgiving, merciless, gossiping, self interested... SO argue all you want over what you think scripture is saying, but know that those of us that have been given to see your fruits, know your arguments are in vein.

I find this quite curious. If that is so, why have the sacrifices, especially the Day of Atonement?

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

I find this quite curious. If that is so, why have the sacrifices, especially the Day of Atonement?

You are not a Jew, therefore speak not for the Jew.