Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Vicomte13]

C

What I am trying to figure out is the statements where Christ says IF as it relates to following Him. If implies conditional status.

Christ meant "if", and he makes that clear in his letters to the seven Churches. IF you overcome, persevere, DO, then you shall have the crown, the stone, the manna, the tree of life. If not, then your lampstand will be cast down, you will be spewed out of his mouth.

True, he said that SATAN cannot grab a sheep out of his hand, but sheep can get lost and wander away on their own, and they do, all the time. It ain't Satan leading them away when they do, it's the person himself, deciding of his own free will to do or not to do. We're not pinballs without responsibility, and we're not really empty headed sheep either. We have to WORK, to OVERCOME, to ENDURE - these are not things that come naturally, they require effort on our part.

And Jesus says so over and over and over again.

You know that bit about not taking one line of the Bible out of context. What's the context? Jesus writes letters from heaven to seven churches and tells them to return to their works, to persevere and overcome, or they will be spewed out. Nothing opaque about that.

Jesus asks over and over during his mission what good it does to say you follow him if you don't keep his commandments.

Jesus exorts people to DO something practically every time he speaks, and warns of consequences if people don't DO that thing.

Are we then to take one sentence, in which he speaks of Satan snatching people away, and use that to nullify every other word he said? THAT would be taking things out of context.

In proper context, the understanding is that SATAN does not have to power to wrest Christians away. But Christians, as sheep, can still wander away OF THEIR OWN ACCORD. And if they do, they can indeed be lost, be taken by Satan. Satan can't remove them from Christ's hand, but people can remove THEMSELVES from Christ's hand and go follow Satan.

This isn't hard to see.

Some people a few hundred years ago promulgated a wrong teaching. It became a tradition, and now people are still fighting to preserve the honor of a tradition that was not well thought out, and that contradicts 95% of what Jesus said.

Just toss the tradition and follow the huge bulk of Jesus' words. Stop fighting about it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

C


Christ meant "if", and he makes that clear in his letters to the seven Churches. IF you overcome, persevere, DO, then you shall have the crown, the stone, the manna, the tree of life. If not, then your lampstand will be cast down, you will be spewed out of his mouth.

True, he said that SATAN cannot grab a sheep out of his hand, but sheep can get lost and wander away on their own, and they do, all the time. It ain't Satan leading them away when they do, it's the person himself, deciding of his own free will to do or not to do. We're not pinballs without responsibility, and we're not really empty headed sheep either. We have to WORK, to OVERCOME, to ENDURE - these are not things that come naturally, they require effort on our part.

And Jesus says so over and over and over again.

You know that bit about not taking one line of the Bible out of context. What's the context? Jesus writes letters from heaven to seven churches and tells them to return to their works, to persevere and overcome, or they will be spewed out. Nothing opaque about that.

Jesus asks over and over during his mission what good it does to say you follow him if you don't keep his commandments.

Jesus exorts people to DO something practically every time he speaks, and warns of consequences if people don't DO that thing.

Are we then to take one sentence, in which he speaks of Satan snatching people away, and use that to nullify every other word he said? THAT would be taking things out of context.

In proper context, the understanding is that SATAN does not have to power to wrest Christians away. But Christians, as sheep, can still wander away OF THEIR OWN ACCORD. And if they do, they can indeed be lost, be taken by Satan. Satan can't remove them from Christ's hand, but people can remove THEMSELVES from Christ's hand and go follow Satan.

This isn't hard to see.

Some people a few hundred years ago promulgated a wrong teaching. It became a tradition, and now people are still fighting to preserve the honor of a tradition that was not well thought out, and that contradicts 95% of what Jesus said.

Just toss the tradition and follow the huge bulk of Jesus' words. Stop fighting about it.[/QouTE]

I am pleased to know that you think 5% of what Jesus said does not contradict OSAS. I would be happy with only one statement. I see no point in arguing. Scripture is clear, is it not?

 

[tickingclocker]

Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
​

Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.​

In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.​

The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?

Picking apart only one of Jesus' many, many parables which explain salvation is like drinking only water your entire life while pronouncing to the world that fruit juice, milk, and other beverages have nothing to offer anyone. The experience of all gives the whole picture of what 'beverage' truly means. I've never wondered why Jesus utilized so many examples which would have been ordinary experiences of almost everyone who heard them. It reveals that God is not the one dimensional Person so many want/expect Him to be, and that's actually a good thing because we humans constantly need reminding that He is infinitely larger than our puny minds.

What vine caretaker keeps dead branches on its vines? Dead vines are... well, dead. Not living. Only living branches produce fruit. Dead vines sap the life out of the vine, trying to get them to grow and produce fruit. No wonder they are rubbed off. Do you envision these long luxurious branches being cut away from the vine in full leaf? Then you don't know what it means to vine prune. In late spring unpromising branch nubs are rubbed or cut off by the vineyard manager. (Actually, grapevines are largely pruned in late winter when ALL branches appear dead. Only a trained vineyard manager knows the difference between the dead and living. An untrained eye would cut them all off if going by looks.) You might want to visit an actual vineyard someday to spiritually apply what you learn about grapevines. It's an amazing, eye-opening spiritual experience you will never forget! Our culture knows nothing about what the people of Jesus' day took for granted, so its harder for us to truly understand in a deeper way what it was He was explaining.

 

[Vicomte13]

I am pleased to know that you think 5% of what Jesus said does not contradict OSAS. I would be happy with only one statement. I see no point in arguing. Scripture is clear, is it not?

Nothing Jesus said supports OSAS. Everything he said makes it crystal clear that we're judged on our WORKS.
He says it repetitively throughout his mission. Men are judged by what they do.

He makes it clear that if we've done evil - which is sin - that the way we're forgiven sin by God is by us forgiving others. That's the way Jesus spelled out, so that's the way. Not some other way men have cobbled together by bits and pieces - what Jesus said directly and clearly.

It's just not hard. And it never was hard to understand. There are people who don't LIKE that, and they've made up a bunch of complicated nonsense that confuses the issue greatly. Because these errors are old, they have become deep traditions, and people will fight to the death over the nonsense. It is one of the things that makes Christians such disagreeable people, really.

 

[Vicomte13]

But since a believer's acceptance with God has nothing to do with their works and everything to do with their trust in Christ,

Oh for crying out loud! You've just had Jesus say SEVEN TIMES, Christ himself, that Christ's acceptance of the believer is determined by his WORKS, why continue to fight it?

I give up.

 

[Vi]

Once saved, the HS provides for you so you will always be saved, and nothing can take that away....

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

You start with the flawed assumption that man is in a state of innocence like Adam before the Fall, and has free will.

You dont believe in free wilL ? Do you lean towards Calvinism?

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

Once saved, the HS provides for you so you will always be saved, and nothing can take that away....

But God wont over ride your free will, you can still mess that up...

 

[Vicomte13]

Sorry, this won't work. What makes the apostle John's writing more inspired, more trustworthy, than Paul's?

It's not John's writing. It is John TAKING DICTATION FROM CHRIST IN HEAVEN - the only time that ever happened. The fact of the dictation, and the warning from Christ not to add or subtract any words from THIS writing, that gives it particular authority.

The fact that it is Christ who is speaking gives it authority over everything else in the New Testament. Obviously.

Paul is not God.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

You start with the flawed assumption that man is in a state of innocence like Adam before the Fall, and has free will.

I never said man was innocent, I just gave examples of life hardships that can push anyone away from god.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

C


Christ meant "if", and he makes that clear in his letters to the seven Churches. IF you overcome, persevere, DO, then you shall have the crown, the stone, the manna, the tree of life. If not, then your lampstand will be cast down, you will be spewed out of his mouth.

True, he said that SATAN cannot grab a sheep out of his hand, but sheep can get lost and wander away on their own, and they do, all the time. It ain't Satan leading them away when they do, it's the person himself, deciding of his own free will to do or not to do. We're not pinballs without responsibility, and we're not really empty headed sheep either. We have to WORK, to OVERCOME, to ENDURE - these are not things that come naturally, they require effort on our part.

And Jesus says so over and over and over again.

You know that bit about not taking one line of the Bible out of context. What's the context? Jesus writes letters from heaven to seven churches and tells them to return to their works, to persevere and overcome, or they will be spewed out. Nothing opaque about that.

Jesus asks over and over during his mission what good it does to say you follow him if you don't keep his commandments.

Jesus exorts people to DO something practically every time he speaks, and warns of consequences if people don't DO that thing.

Are we then to take one sentence, in which he speaks of Satan snatching people away, and use that to nullify every other word he said? THAT would be taking things out of context.

In proper context, the understanding is that SATAN does not have to power to wrest Christians away. But Christians, as sheep, can still wander away OF THEIR OWN ACCORD. And if they do, they can indeed be lost, be taken by Satan. Satan can't remove them from Christ's hand, but people can remove THEMSELVES from Christ's hand and go follow Satan.

This isn't hard to see.

Some people a few hundred years ago promulgated a wrong teaching. It became a tradition, and now people are still fighting to preserve the honor of a tradition that was not well thought out, and that contradicts 95% of what Jesus said.

Just toss the tradition and follow the huge bulk of Jesus' words. Stop fighting about it.

Totally agree!

 

[Vicomte13]

Totally agree!

Thanks. I'm walking away from this conversation - the answer is so obvious from everything that Jesus said, and Jesus is God and the final authority on everything. I really can't stand arguments against Jesus - they make me mad - and then the time comes to just walk away. I've reached that point on this subject, and I'll leave on this high note from you.

 

[AngelOf Laodicea]

Oh for crying out loud! You've just had Jesus say SEVEN TIMES, Christ himself, that Christ's acceptance of the believer is determined by his WORKS, why continue to fight it?

I give up.

There isn't anything you can do to convince them to look at wha the bible says.
As soon as you quote a vs or break it down, they either don't read it or don't care.

They believe their own pre determined beliefs regardless of any passage.

If they will not explain the verses in the OP, then why beat a dead horse?

 

[FenderTL5]

Interesting discussion.

Why risk it?

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.


John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:9 puts right the idea that works saves. It does not.

Roman Catholicism often teaches we are not saved by faith alone. But what the scriptures say is Gods word and that is what is truth and eternal salvation and life in Christ Jesus.

 

[AngelOf Laodicea]

They cannot explain the OP because the verses contradict their theology and they simply don't know how to answer It.

Instead of being humble and and admitting they don't understand, they evade and chase the rabbit In so many other issues.

David is a skilled debater and has called them on it so many times.

The opposition is unprepared..

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.


John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:9 puts right the idea that works saves. It does not.

Roman Catholicism often teaches we are not saved by faith alone. But what the scriptures say is Gods word and that is what is truth and eternal salvation and life in Christ Jesus.

Truly, truly, I say to you, to be carnally minded is death.

If you could do me a favor and explain the following, "faith without works is dead." And please, have a read of Romans 2.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Truly, truly, I say to you, to be carnally minded is death.

If you could do me a favor and explain the following, "faith without works is dead." And please, have a read of Romans 2.

Of course faith without showing the spirit of Christ in all you do means nothing.
We know that.
Look, people like yourself that wish to renounce Jesus sacrifice that assured eternal life and salvation by the grace of God alone should believe that. Go ahead. Live that belief you have and defend here in 7 plus pages and counting.
Live the notion that Jesus did not take the sins of the world upon himself, that he wasn't speaking truth when he said no one will take the believer that comes to him by the call of God, and receives eternal life through faith by the grace of God, from his hand. Meaning no one , not even the believer, can leave the covenant Jesus died to impart to the world.
Argue against that. Argue that you and those who believe as you do have to work to be saved, and work harder to explain if that were true why God would send his only begotten son to die so that the Fathers grace could be bestowed on the world and eternal life given to those who have faith in the sacrifice.

Strive to explain how if works saved why God didn't know that. And send a messenger that told us to work hard! Our souls depend on it, and when we're done with our labors to be approved come to the judgement of them and find out after life if we earned eternal life.
Go ahead!

You should live your belief. Work hard! And best of luck.

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

Ah, another thread on how un-clear and poorly written the Bible is. Please continue this fruitless debate, as it will change no ones mind as to their own personal beliefs on salvation. Also, if you become as hebrew as possible you WILL go to heaven no matter what. So, make sure to write your name in hebrew, celebrate the jewish holidays and be sure to open and close your post with some sort of hebrew greeting. Thank you. You may all continue.

Oh and these guys who started the forum believe in sinless perfection, so, that's a thing lol. Anyway, have fun guys.

Woe, Woe, Woe!
If I said anything wrong, you must prove it. But I am speaking the truth, why are you against me?

As a reply to an accusation against me,
Why is it that so many professing Christians choose to live in sin? Because, they love sin and do not want to stop doing it. They tell themselves that they are saved to hide from the fact that they are unrepentant sinners that rebel against God by their actions. If you love to do evil and sick things you will simply go to hell. It does not matter if you were saved at some point in our history. If you refuse to stop doing evil, you will pay the price.

Never did I say that I agree with "sinless perfection," you did. The flesh is sinful regardless of salvation. Galatians 5:19-21 speaks of various kinds of sin and the fact that we will not enter the kingdom of God if we practice these things. God will judge us on the things we do. Do not think that God is not concerned about the sinful things we do. God hates sin and the ones who choose to practice it. (see: Psalms 5:5-6) What kind of things are we practicing? This is the question. Do we claim to be saved then go on living in darkness? If so than we are lying to ourselves.

When Christians choose to live in sin, they reject Yeshua who offers salvation. They refuse the salvation that the Messiah offers because their choices stem from a lack of trust and dedication.

 

[Ken Rank]

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

This isn't to you as much as to all.... you (we) are a child of God. We have passed from darkness unto light, life from death... this is the promise. However, we are not saved yet. We still decay and die, we still must toil and sweat, we are exposed to all manner of sin... we are not by any stretch of the imagination, at rest. That remains a promise yet to be fulfilled.

The Holy Spirit that we have received is NOT all we are getting, it was only a down-payment. Paul in 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5 calls the giving of the Spirit an earnest or down payment which indicates "more to come." When we read Jer. 31:31-34 (which is repeated in Heb. 8:8-11) we find that the sign of the new covenant is the law written on the mind and heart. Has the process begun? Sure... each day we continue to grow toward loving the things He loves and hating the things He hates.... but the work is NOT complete. Jeremiah wrote, "there will no longer be a need to teach every man his brother for all will know the LORD." Well, all do NOT know the Lord and clearly we still need to teach, still have teachers and students... therefore, the work is not done. We have the promise, the expectation, Yeshua has earned the right through the resurrection to perfect us when he returns... but that day has not come yet. We still walk in fallen bodies, still must persevere through temptation.... the promised "rest" has not happened yet. It will when he comes, until then, we are not saved YET.

Besides... we have exalted the word "saves" to be a one-time event in our life when Scripture paints salvation as an ongoing process. We don't come to the cross and pitch a tent, we come to the cross and then pick it up and carry it as we disciple and get about the work of our calling.

Lastly... I can show you where, at times, the word "saved" appears in the NT when the concept behind the word is "returned." You might consider Romans 9:27 as compared to its source, Isaiah 10:22.

Blessings.
Ken