How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[Skala]

How would God act if He were evil?

If he were evil he'd guarantee the salvation of not a single person, which is what non-Calvinism/Arminianism claims.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But didn't you learn in the New Testamant that any righteousness a person has that is pleasing to God, is actually an alien righteousness that is not their own?

Observe:
Phil 3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

To say that Noah had his own innate righteousness that God then rewarded is contrary to the Christian message, is it antithetical to the gospel. It is salvation by works and salvation by merit.

In Genesis we are told that God showed "grace" to Noah. Noah's righteousness was not his own, but imparted to him the same way the Apostle Paul's righteousness was. And yours and mine. We cannot boast in our own righteousness, for it is as filthy rags.

Not really.

In the Old Testament several patriarch's of the faith were imputed righteousness by God because they nor no one else could keep the law. It happened with Noah and it happened with Abraham. Imputed righteousness by faith. Not grace.

Genesis 15:5-6
God's Covenant with Abram
5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Hebrews 11:7
“By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.”

Genesis 7:1
1 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.



See, there was not grace in the Old Testament, grace came with Christ's death on the cross who through His shed blood paid the sin debt of all the world. So, you need to read to see the few that righteousness was imputed too.

Now you will notice that your proof verses are New Testament verses (ie.. AFTER the death of Jesus Christ, New Covenant). The Patriarch's lived under the Old Covenant, no grace.

 

[CodyFaith]

So wait.

Just so I'm clear, a lot of you believe that God creates two people, both of the same moral character, both equal. Than, for whatever reason (some say to show/demonstrate his "mercy"), God chooses one of those people and saves them and damns the other to hell for eternity?

You realize that means God creates someone evil right? That man had no choice/freewill to choose good or evil, but that he was created evil. And then God damns him because of how he was created.

So God wanted that person to come into the world, only so the end result could be that he put him into eternal torment, while put the other that he created into paradise.

Actually, in reality there would be no such thing as good and evil in those cases, as good and evil are dependent on freewill choices.

Or am I missing something here and that's not what you believe at all?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I see you failed to grasp what I was trying to teach, with my post.

My point was, man plays no part in being the recipient of resurrecting, saving grace. Lazarus didn't "let" Jesus resurrect him, or cooperate in any way. A corpse cannot assist in his own resurrection.

Spiritual raising from the dead (aka, salvation) works the same way. Why do you think the Apostle Paul used death and resurrection as an analogy for salvation?

Salvation is monergistic, just like Calvinism says.

God doesn't merely offer salvation then sit back and wait to see what happens, like a lifeguard who tosses a ring to someone struggling to swim, then waiting to see if the person grabs onto the ring and holds on tight with their own strength (cooperation of two parties for the salvation of the man)

Instead, God is a miracle worker who dives to the bottom of the ocean because the swimming man is already dead and drowned, and God drags him to the shore and miraculously resurrects him. (monergism, God alone saves a man)

I know Hamm well enough to say that this would be his testimony. He'd say he "let" Jesus save him the same way Lazarus "let" Jesus save him. Ie, he played no part in his own salvation, but Jesus alone did all the work. And Hamm is eternally grateful.

Well maybe you do not know how to write what you mean then. You clearly said that Lazarus allowed Jesus to raise him from the dead.

Since you do not write well, I am not sure you know what you are saying above. You could just be confused again.

 

[Skala]

Well maybe you do not know how to write what you mean then. You clearly said that Lazarus allowed Jesus to raise him from the dead.

Yes but I was using sarcasm of sorts to make a point. Hopefully I explained it better with my follow up post. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Skala]

But didn't you learn in the New Testamant that any righteousness a person has that is pleasing to God, is actually an alien righteousness that is not their own?

Not really.

I have nothing further to add.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I have nothing further to add.

Well that's at your own perill.

Because anyone who does not know the differences between the Old Covenant and New Covenant does not understand the Bible. And thanks for butchering my post to suit your own needs.

 

[Skala]

So wait.

Just so I'm clear, a lot of you believe that God creates two people, both of the same moral character, both equal. Than, for whatever reason (some say to show/demonstrate his "mercy"), God chooses one of those people and saves them and damns the other to hell for eternity?

You realize that means God creates someone evil right? That man had no choice/freewill to choose good or evil, but that he was created evil. And then God damns him because of how he was created.

So God wanted that person to come into the world, only so the end result could be that he put him into eternal torment, while put the other that he created into paradise.

Actually, in reality there would be no such thing as good and evil in those cases, as good and evil are dependent on freewill choices.

Or am I missing something here and that's not what you believe at all?

You are missing something.

God created Adam who was innocent and hadn't sinned yet. Adam sinned, and in him, we all sinned along with him, as he was our federal head.

Adam had many offspring, you, me the entire human race. We're all guilty and hellbound. We sin because we are sinners by nature and choice, thanks to Adam who was our federal head.

So, the entire human race is guilty and deserves hell, and in fact is headed to hell by default.

Unless...

Unless God saves in and chooses to show mercy to some of them. He has three options:

1) Save nobody - and he would be perfectly justified to let all of us perish to hell for our sins
2) Save everybody - he could do that if he wanted, but the Bible does not indicate that is what he has chosen to do
3) save some people - this is what the Bible teaches, therefore we are bound to believe it.

The fact that God saves "Joe" but not "Bob" does not make God unjust, because both men deserve hell. Just because God saves person A does not make him obligated to save person B, too. No injustice has been done to person B.

Person A receives mercy
Person B receives justice

 

[ToBeLoved]

I see you failed to grasp what I was trying to teach, with my post.

My point was, man plays no part in being the recipient of resurrecting, saving grace. Lazarus didn't "let" Jesus resurrect him, or cooperate in any way. A corpse cannot assist in his own resurrection.

Spiritual raising from the dead (aka, salvation) works the same way. Why do you think the Apostle Paul used death and resurrection as an analogy for salvation?

Salvation is monergistic, just like Calvinism says.

God doesn't merely offer salvation then sit back and wait to see what happens, like a lifeguard who tosses a ring to someone struggling to swim, then waiting to see if the person grabs onto the ring and holds on tight with their own strength (cooperation of two parties for the salvation of the man)

Instead, God is a miracle worker who dives to the bottom of the ocean because the swimming man is already dead and drowned, and God drags him to the shore and miraculously resurrects him. (monergism, God alone saves a man)

I know Hamm well enough to say that this would be his testimony. He'd say he "let" Jesus save him the same way Lazarus "let" Jesus save him. Ie, he played no part in his own salvation, but Jesus alone did all the work. And Hamm is eternally grateful.

Well let's think logically about this.

If God saves who He wants to save, then why even say that we must have faith?

Why not just ka-pow! Your saved! Your saved! Your saved!

Why is for every verse about salvation almost have 'by faith', 'in faith'. Even in the Old Covenant, imputed righteousness was 'by faith'. So there is something that you guys are missing about faith.

 

[Skala]

Well that's at your own perill.

Because anyone who does not know the differences between the Old Covenant and New Covenant does not understand the Bible. And thanks for butchering my post to suit your own needs.

I'm sorry it came off that way, but your post made no sense, because you said:

"Imputed righteousness by faith. Not grace."

This makes no sense because "imputed righteousness by faith" is grace.

So how can you say "it's not one, but the other". How can you say "it's not by grace, it's by faith", when Ephesians 2:8-9 teach us that "salvation by grace through faith" is in fact a gift from God.

Thus this proves my point all along - Noah was saved because of God's mercy. God's gift. God's grace. Whatever you want to call it, it's because God did something kind.

 

[Skala]

Well let's think logically about this.
If God saves who He wants to save, then why even say that we must have faith?

Just because you don't know why God chose to make salvation a certain way doesn't mean it makes no sense or isn't logical.

Why not just ka-pow! Your saved! Your saved! Your saved!

Because God works through means. He didn't just say "ka-pow! You're dead!", instead, he flooded the earth and killed everyone that way. He didn't just say "ka-pow!, you're saved!" he sent his son, his son lived for 30 years, then died, was buried, and rose again.

God works through means.

He does whatever is pleasing to him.

If God designed salvation such that faith is part of salvation, then it must be because that is what was pleasing to God. God decided salvation by grace through faith is the kind of salvation that he wanted to design. It's his. He can design it how He wants.

He could have designed salvation such that whoever eats 10 chocolate ice cream cones in the span of 10 minutes is saved. But instead He designed it this way.

Why is for every verse about salvation almost have 'by faith', 'in faith'. Even in the Old Covenant, imputed righteousness was 'by faith'. So there is something that you guys are missing about faith.

See above.

If God saves who He wants to save,

There's no "if". It's exactly what He himself said:

"I have mercy on whom I desire" Romans 9:14-16

He does save who he wants to save.

 

[Hammster]

How can God have predestined sin but not be a liar according to His Holy Word?

We can all shoot out one sentence questions, Hammster. It's not hard.

Mine have a purpose. You haven't really answered any, though.

 

[EmSw]

In Genesis we are told that God showed "grace" to Noah. Noah's righteousness was not his own, but imparted to him the same way the Apostle Paul's righteousness was. And yours and mine. We cannot boast in our own righteousness, for it is as filthy rags.

Genesis DOES NOT say God SHOWED grace to Noah. It says Noah found (active, not passive) grace in the eyes of the Lord. Noah found, secured, acquired, and attained God's grace.

The same thing is said of Moses -

Exodus 33:17
So the Lord said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.

Then we read this -

Deuteronomy 6:25
Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us.

You need to read the whole counsel of God. If a person does not obey God, then yes, his righteousness is as filthy rags. If a man practices righteousness, he is righteous.

1 John 2:29
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

In fact, several things are said about practicing, that is, doing righteousness. You are not born of God. How do we know we are not born of God? Because John also says if you do not practice righteousness you ARE NOT OF GOD!

Maybe you would boast of your righteousness, but those who are truly of God, would give God all the glory, which those of God do.

 

[EmSw]

Just because you don't know why God chose to make salvation a certain way doesn't mean it makes no sense or isn't logical.

Because God works through means. He didn't just say "ka-pow! You're dead!", instead, he flooded the earth and killed everyone that way. He didn't just say "ka-pow!, you're saved!" he sent his son, his son lived for 30 years, then died, was buried, and rose again.

God works through means.

He does whatever is pleasing to him.

And we do find the means for salvation.

Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Why do Calvinists not mention these means to bring about salvation?

 

[Skala]

Genesis DOES NOT say God SHOWED grace to Noah.

Methinks you are reading wayyyy too much extra information (eisegesis) into the word "found".

You're trying to make the case that it means that Noah fought for, earned, strived for grace, then finally found it somehow.

When in reality it just simply means that God was gracious to Noah. That's all.

 

[EmSw]

He does save who he wants to save.

Very true! He desires to save those who obey Him.

 

[Skala]

And we do find the means for salvation.

Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Why do Calvinists not mention these means to bring about salvation?

Where have Calvinists ever denied that obedience was important?
In fact, Calvinists don't deny that. But Calvinists believe the other stuff the Bible says about how our obedience itself is a gift from God, and the reason we obey is because God is working in us, etc.

You're the one that believes the "obedience" part, but not the "because of God working in us" part.

Thus, your theology has big holes that need to be filled.

Do you need some Bible passages as evidence? Sigh, ok, I guess I can provide them:

Heb 11:20-21
Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him

Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Skala]

Very true! He desires to save those who obey Him.

See post #295

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm sorry it came off that way, but your post made no sense, because you said:

"Imputed righteousness by faith. Not grace."

This makes no sense because "imputed righteousness by faith" is grace.

So how can you say "it's not one, but the other". How can you say "it's not by grace, it's by faith", when Ephesians 2:8-9 teach us that "salvation by grace through faith" is in fact a gift from God.

Thus this proves my point all along - Noah was saved because of God's mercy. God's gift. God's grace. Whatever you want to call it, it's because God did something kind.

No, you have it wrong. In the OT patriarchs were imputed righteousness because of their great faith.

Grace is what Christ died to give us, the free gift of salvation. But even in Christ it is BY FAITH.

Acts 3:16
By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see.

Acts 15:9
He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Romans 1:12
that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith.
Romans 1:17
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 3:30
since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Romans 4:1
[ Abraham Justified by Faith ] What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?

Romans 4:11
And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Romans 4:13
It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Romans 4:16
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Romans 5:2
through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Romans 9:30
[ Israel’s Unbelief ] What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;

Romans 9:32
Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Romans 10:6
But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down)

Romans 11:20
Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Romans 16:26
but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith—

2 Corinthians 1:24
Not that we lord it over your faith, but we work with you for your joy, because it is by faith you stand firm.

2 Corinthians 5:7
For we live by faith, not by sight.

2 Corinthians 10:15
Neither do we go beyond our limits by boasting of work done by others. Our hope is that, as your faith continues to grow, our sphere of activity among you will greatly expand,

Galatians 2:16
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:8
Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

Galatians 3:11
Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”

Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Galatians 3:24
So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 5:5
For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

1 Thessalonians 1:3
We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:11
With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may bring to fruition your every desire for goodness and your every deed prompted by faith.

1 Timothy 1:4
or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith.

Hebrews 10:38
And, “But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.”

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

Hebrews 11:9
By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.

Hebrews 11:11
And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise.

Hebrews 11:13
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son,

Hebrews 11:20
By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

Hebrews 11:21
By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

Hebrews 11:22
By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.

Hebrews 11:23
By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

Hebrews 11:24
By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter.

Hebrews 11:27
By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible.

Hebrews 11:28
By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

Hebrews 11:29
By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

Hebrews 11:30
By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.

Hebrews 11:31
By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

There are more, but I think this makes my point. It is by grace that we receive the free gift of salvation, but it is by faith that we accept His free gift. It is ALWAYS BY FAITH.

So, there is something that we do, accept the free gift of salvation, by faith.

 

[EmSw]

Methinks you are reading wayyyy too much extra information (eisegesis) into the word "found".

You're trying to make the case that it means that Noah fought for, earned, strived for grace, then finally found it somehow.

When in reality it just simply means that God was gracious to Noah. That's all.

Nope, that's what you want it to say. I'm not buying your earthly understanding.

Who found? Noah or God?