The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[alexandriaisburning]

What a load of old tosh.

Meaning??

 

[Der Alte]

No thanks.
Been there, done that. Waste of time.
If you would not think of throwing your own child into a fire, why do you think God would?
End of story.

What was that you said? "a load of old tosh!" I seem to remember God raining down fire from God in heaven on Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains, killing men, women, children, infants.

 

[Catherineanne]

What was that you said? "a load of old tosh!" I seem to remember God raining down fire from God in heaven on Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains, killing men, women, children, infants.

Nope.

Not God.

 

[razzelflabben]

Then you still don't understand.
Limitless punishment is by definition utterly disproportionate to limited sinning.

by this reasoning, eternal reward would equally be unjust but you aren't complaining about it.

 

[razzelflabben]

I think that a lot of it depends upon the nature of the "torture" itself. If we are talking about extreme physical pain, like what a fire would cause upon someone, then I have a real problem with a loving God doing such to anyone for all eternity. However, if instead we are looking at God sending souls to a dark and lonely place, then I do not have nearly as much a problem with an eternity in Hell, as long as we are talking about souls that truly commit horrendous deeds, like murder or rape or child abuse or spousal abuse. As far as the contention that all sins are the same before God, I believe that such a thesis is very flawed. The Ten Commandments themselves and how the Early Church viewed the seriousness of certain sins should be enough to put to rest the claim that all sins are the same.

how does your position change if we understand that God isn't punishing anyone but rather the person is choosing for themselves where they spend eternity?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I think that a lot of it depends upon the nature of the "torture" itself. If we are talking about extreme physical pain, like what a fire would cause upon someone, then I have a real problem with a loving God doing such to anyone for all eternity. However, if instead we are looking at God sending souls to a dark and lonely place, then I do not have nearly as much a problem with an eternity in Hell, as long as we are talking about souls that truly commit horrendous deeds, like murder or rape or child abuse or spousal abuse. As far as the contention that all sins are the same before God, I believe that such a thesis is very flawed. The Ten Commandments themselves and how the Early Church viewed the seriousness of certain sins should be enough to put to rest the claim that all sins are the same.

Though we don't get to make up what Hell entails, it has to be biblical, I'm with you on that and assume we are both just undecided. Yes, knowing at least roughly, if not exactly what this supposed eternal punishment entails, would help a lot.


So I ask the OP, Achilles6129 whom I assume is at least somewhat of an expert on the question....how are we punished in Hell, exactly what takes place?

 

[Kenny'sID]

how does your position change if we understand that God isn't punishing anyone but rather the person is choosing for themselves where they spend eternity?

How do you separate the two? We choose to disobey and God Chooses to punish, and does, so of course God is doing the punishment.

 

[razzelflabben]

Though we don't get to make up what Hell entails, it has to be biblical, I'm with you on that and assume we are both just undecided. Yes, knowing at least roughly, if not exactly what this supposed eternal punishment entails, would help a lot.

So I ask the OP, Achilles6129 whom I assume is at least somewhat of an expert on the question....how are we punished in Hell, exactly what takes place?

Though we don't get to make up what Hell entails, it has to be biblical, I'm with you on that and assume we are both just undecided. Yes, knowing at least roughly, if not exactly what this supposed eternal punishment entails, would help a lot.


So I ask the OP, Achilles6129 whom I assume is at least somewhat of an expert on the question....how are we punished in Hell, exactly what takes place?

achilles can answer for himself but from my study of scripture, hell isn't a punishment at all, hell is the consequence for sin.

We build this case by first looking at Gen. What was Eve's punishment for sin? Painful childbirth, right? What was Adams? Weeds. Even the serpents punishment was to crawl on his belly. But what of death? That would happen with sin, it's even a different structure...it is the consequence of sin not the punishment for it. We see this later in the wages (that which is earned) is death (hell) ...also look at the OT temple and sacrifices. Death is the consequence of sin and in order to satisfy that natural law death must be paid for any sin committed. Christ offered to pay that debt, to satisfy that consequence by dying in our place.

Until we understand that death/hell is the consequence of sin not the punishment for our sin, hell will most likely not make any sense at all.

 

[Hieronymus]

achilles can answer for himself but from my study of scripture, hell isn't a punishment at all, hell is the consequence for sin.

false dichotomy.

 

[razzelflabben]

How do you separate the two? We choose to disobey and God Chooses to punish, and does, so of course God is doing the punishment.

Hell is the consequence not the punishment so there is nothing and no reason to try to separate the two. We choose who we will serve, sin which leads to death or God who leads to life.

So if you or I or Joe down the road chooses to serve sin which leads to death/hell, who are you to say that is wrong, immoral, horrible, unjust or any other accusation against it. Isn't freedom to choose a precious gift that we should want to hold tightly too?

 

[razzelflabben]

false dichotomy.

if you want to have a rational interesting discussion about hell you are going to have to do better than that when you take part of a post and quote it but refuse the context and the points being made...

 

[mmksparbud]

Just wondering--where does scripture fit into the theories we believe about hell? Why are we arguing believes and not arguing over what the scriptures say, to put it another way.

 

[razzelflabben]

Just wondering--where does scripture fit into the theories we believe about hell? Why are we arguing believes and not arguing over what the scriptures say, to put it another way.

well, if my experience on another thread about the topic is an indication it is because then there is an entire group of people who could not justify their beliefs and feel they have the right to judge God. But that is just a guess...

 

[Hieronymus]

if you want to have a rational interesting discussion about hell you are going to have to do better than that when you take part of a post and quote it but refuse the context and the points being made...

Then you should know why my reply was sufficient:
Your false dichotomy is what you built your post on, so as a consequence the rest is void.

But okay, i'll get out of your hair and take you out of mine.
God bless.

 

[Hieronymus]

well, if my experience on another thread about the topic is an indication it is because then there is an entire group of people who could not justify their beliefs and feel they have the right to judge God. But that is just a guess...

A foolish guess.

 

[razzelflabben]

Then you should know why my reply was sufficient:
Your false dichotomy is what you built your post on, so as a consequence the rest is void.

But okay, i'll get out of your hair and take you out of mine.
God bless.

lol you haven't even tried to explain how what I said is a false dichotomy which is how you usually do things. You quote something say something totally unrelated then proclaim yourself victor because no one challenged you....hope to run into you again sometime when you are willing to have a good discussion about the topic being presented.

 

[Der Alte]

What was that you said? "a load of old tosh!" I seem to remember God raining down fire from God in heaven on Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains, killing men, women, children, infants.

Nope.
Not God.

Does the Bible you use have these two verses?

Genesis 19:24-25
(24) Then the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] out of heaven;
(25) And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.​

 

[razzelflabben]

They didn't even want to discuss scriptures version of ECT in the apologetic thread. How is that for denial, apologetics thread not willing to discuss scriptures version of ECT because it removes their arguments against it.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Just wondering--where does scripture fit into the theories we believe about hell? Why are we arguing believes and not arguing over what the scriptures say, to put it another way.

Probably because the Scriptures say very little that is definitive regarding the subject. Once you strip away parable and apocalyptic imagery, there is not much to provide any grounds for articulating a definitive doctrine. So the, we have to reason our way to an understanding of the nature of "after-life" by other means, such as contemplating the nature of God, etc.

 

[razzelflabben]

Probably because the Scriptures say very little that is definitive regarding the subject. Once you strip away parable and apocalyptic imagery, there is not much to provide any grounds for articulating a definitive doctrine. So the, we have to reason our way to an understanding of the nature of "after-life" by other means, such as contemplating the nature of God, etc.

as I was studying the topic, I made a list of what we do know from scripture and what we do not know. Care to do that here? From your study what do we know and what don't we know about hell?