Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. --- John 14:15.


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[Kaleb5000]

Not within the frame work of breaking His laws. No. As for Scripture: What are you specifically looking for?


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Just to be clear you are saying if you yourself told a lie and milliseconds later you got killed, you would not be saved and would spend a eternity in hell?

Also what Law must we abide by to be saved?

“For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭ESV‬‬


As I recall we live by faith not by the law.

Works and obedience to the commandments of Christ are the fruits of our faith.





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[FireDragon76]

The servant that buried his one talent was worried about losing what he had, he didn't think about what he could gain. He was afraid of the consequences of not pleasing his master and expected him to be unmerciful. And the response of the master was what he most feared. How can anyone do anything truly good when they are afraid of consequences of failure? At best, they will, like the foolish servant, try to do the minimum they think they can get away with. Then they become their own judge of what is right.

 

[Kaleb5000]

Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. --- John 14:15.


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Absolutely. Which is exactly why I would question whether or not someone who was not trying to keeps his commandment was even saved.

I love Jesus and I strive everyday to walk as he walked.

How could someone claim to love him and choose to live in sin. They can't.




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[FireDragon76]

I haven't met anybody yet walking around on this earth who is free of sin.

 

[Kaleb5000]

I haven't met anybody yet walking around on this earth who is free of sin.

I have not either. We all mess up. However have you met a Christian who day in and day out chooses to live in sin? Who continually chooses themselves over Jesus?


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[toLiJC]

Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?

You know, are there believers today who treat serious sins (like murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc.) as if it was like we spilled a glass of milk before God?

I would have to answer both of these questions with a "yes."

Why? Well,, when I hear certain believers speak about sin: It makes it sound like God is saying this to them when they sin:

GOD:

"Aw, that's okay, my child. You just spilled a little milk. I can clean that up. It is not that big of a deal."​

To me, that is what it sounds like whenever hear certain Christians say that a believer can abide in unrepentant sin like (lusting after a woman or lying) and still be saved (as long as they have a belief on Jesus).

They say a believer will be chastised. But is that really a form of punishment? Do not even unbelievers go thru the same challenges as unbelievers?

Is not a "Sin and still be saved" type of belief minimizing sin and ignoring morality on some level?

Is not God good?

Why would God allow His people to get away with doing evil?

Does the work of Christ's death, burial, resurrection, and ascension really undo a person's current rebellion against God?

Why would God allow evil and rebellious people into God's Kingdom?
Why doesn't God just save everyone then?

Anyways, please answer the main question of the thread and cast your vote in the poll.

Thank you for reading.
And may God's love shine upon you.

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unfortunately the morality has been ignored on spiritual level the most

Blessings

 

[FireDragon76]

I have not either. We all mess up. However have you met a Christian who day in and day out chooses to live in sin? Who continually chooses themselves over Jesus?

What do you mean by "living in sin"?

I'm worried your view of the world is too idealistic and your assessment of human nature is too optimistic. It's something that a lot of Christians do, they think they are upholding the Law of God but in fact they are just cheapening it. People are inclined to sin, almost every Christian up until recently would agree with that. This doesn't really change after a person is regenerated. Romans says that all have sinned, and that Paul even sees sin working within him and warring with the Spirit. And that he does what he doesn't want to do.

What does change is that peoples hearts are gradually changed and they begin to see their sins for what they are. And they begin to live differently. But they don't necessarily live a life "free from sin". Something analogous to sin remains as long as we are walking around in a fallen world.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

..(1) However have you met a Christian who day in and day out chooses to live in sin? (2) Who continually chooses themselves over Jesus?

I'm 'guessin' you mean someone who calls themselves a Christian.
Let me know if you mean something else. Thx.
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yes.
yes.

 

[Kaleb5000]

What do you mean by "living in sin"?

I'm worried your view of the world is too idealistic and your assessment of human nature is too optimistic. People are inclined to sin, almost every Christian up until recently would agree with that. This doesn't really change after a person is regenerated. Romans says that all have sinned, and that Paul even sees sin working within him and warring with the Spirit. And that he does what he doesn't want to do.

What does change is that peoples hearts are gradually changed and they begin to see their sins for what they are. And they begin to live differently. But they don't necessarily live a life "free from sin". Something analogous to sin remains as long as we are walking around in a fallen world.

I agree with your view 100%. Unfortunately I'm not always the best at conveying what I'm thinking. Let's use a example. Say a person knows with out a doubt sex outside of marriage is a sin. Yet they also claim to love, believe and follow Jesus Christ. But they have sex with people everyday. Is this person a Christian?

You say we are inclined to sin and I would agree. You also say this doesn't change after being saved. I would agree with that as well.

But doesn't your faith produce fruits?

I do not think someone lives a certain way becomes saved and all stays the same. Christ begins to work in and through you.

Doesn't the Holy Spirit begin to make you feel convicted as you sin or before you sin?

The Holy Spirit always makes me feel convicted of I have sinned or am about to sin. This is how I know what I need to work in and remove from myself.


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[W2L]

Some people think they are free of sin but its only because they don't read and meditate on the word. If they did they might see their secret faults that the word shows us as we meditate on it. Meditating on the word is also to put the word in our heart.

I'm not making excuses for sin and anyone who truly wants to follow the Lord can never be happy with sin.

As paul said, what fruit did we have in the things we are now ashamed of? Romans 6:21

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But they have sex with people everyday. Is this person a Christian?

You say we are inclined to sin and I would agree. You also say this doesn't change after being saved. I would agree with that as well.

No, "this person" is not a Christian.

No, Scripture does not say a new creation is inclined to live in nor to continue in sin. Not at all. Read 1st John, et al.

 

[Kaleb5000]

I'm 'guessin' you mean someone who calls themselves a Christian.
Let me know if you mean something else. Thx.
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yes.
yes.

Yes I mean someone who calls themselves a Christian. When I say chooses themselves over Jesus. I mean straight up refusal to follow him yet claims they believe they are saved and he is their lord and savior.




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[Kaleb5000]

No, "this person" is not a Christian.

No, Scripture does not say a new creation is inclined to live in nor to continue in sin. Not at all. Read 1st John, et al.

Though Christ is in us are we are still human with human tendencies. I'm not saying they would be inclined to live in sin I am saying they would still sin from time to time.

I am a new creation the me of today is far from the me of two years ago. That is all thanks to Jesus Christ and his spirit that guides me daily.


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[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes I mean someone who calls themselves a Christian. When I say chooses themselves over Jesus. I mean straight up refusal to follow him yet claims they believe they are saved and < claim > he is their lord and savior.

According to Scripture, multitudes do this today. (and on Judgment Day are told 'bye')

 

[Kaleb5000]

Not sure if any of you are familiar with this website. But Matt Slick holds the exact same position I do on this whole topic. I can not explain it any better then he does.

https://carm.org/what-is-once-saved-always-saved


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[Sam91]

Unfortunately some people are more astute than others. I really feel for those who really just don't understand. I would pray hard for those people you spot like that.

Tact is so good for pointing out others errors. Jesus used parables. I am using a soft technique with a relative of my child at the moment where I am testifying and talking about situations but not her directly. Hoping that she might pick up on the differences herself as I don't know how far in Gods will I am meant to push her. I hope that it is working as she is saying her beliefs now rather than accusing me of trying to convert her like she did when I first came home to the Lord.

 

[Sam91]

Yes I mean someone who calls themselves a Christian. When I say chooses themselves over Jesus. I mean straight up refusal to follow him yet claims they believe they are saved and he is their lord and savior.




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Thats what I meant to quote > . <

 

[Kenny'sID]

I believe the Law of the Old Covenant (or the Law of Moses) (the 613 Commands) are no longer applicable for the believer today.

My only point was. all sin is not the same, nothing more.

There are no exceptions for dying in unrepentant sin that leads to death.

i would have to disagree and think there is no way you can know that as absolute truth, unless you have scripture.

God is the giver and taker of life. So death is no accident.

Do you have scripture to back up God doesn't just let people die naturally and that he has his personal hand on every death?

If God is merciful and desires for a person to repent and God knows their heart that they will do so and live honorably for the Lord the rest of their life, then God will let them live so as to repent instead of taking their life without giving them a chance to repent.

I think you're just making some of this stuff up. Sounds like some of this are things that you have considered and somehow turned speculation into fact. But you may be able to back it up with scripture, and if so, please do.

If God is merciful and desires for a person to repent and God knows their heart that they will do so and live honorably for the Lord the rest of their life, then God will let them live so as to repent instead of taking their life without giving them a chance to repent.

I think you are masking assumptions there

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Just to be clear you are saying if you yourself told a lie and milliseconds later you got killed, you would not be saved and would spend a eternity in hell?

Dear Kaleb:

Did not Anaias and Saphirra die for lying to the Holy Spirit and did not fear fall upon the church as a result? Granted, this was no ordinary type of lie. But is it possible for God to take the life of a believer before they get a chance to repent of the sin of lying? I believe it is possible if God knows that they will just continue to get worse and they will never truly come back to Him (and their continued existence would do more harm to his ultimate plan for good). But yes, it is also true that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

As for Eternal Conscious Torment:

Well, I do not believe the Bible teaches such a thing. I used to believe that way, but Scripture has shown me otherwise. I believe that hell is more like a really bad prison and not a torture chamber; And I believe the Lake of Fire will destroy or annihilate all of God's enemies after the Judgments. However, most people just follow church tradition without really praying or studying the subject for themselves.

For we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15. For it says,

"For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;"
(Philemon 1:15 KJV).

This is talking about Onesimus. Here is what it says in the New Living Translation,

15 "It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever.
16 He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord."
(Philemon 1:15-16 NLT).

In other words, Onesimus did not return to his master for all eternity here upon this Earth. Onesimus is not still alive. He is not an immortal or anything of that nature. He was mortal and he died. So to assume that the word "forever" and it's related words always means forever does not work. Meaning, one has to re-examine what they believe the word "forever" means in relation to the Greek word "Gehenna", i.e. the Lake of Fire (Which is translated in the English as "hell").

Especially seeing that the phrase "
“...the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:”
‭‭in Revelation 14:11 is the same phrase used in Isaiah 34:10, which is obviously metaphorical. For it says in Isaiah,

“It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.”‭‭ (Isaiah 34:10).

In other words, if a person is to take the smoke rising up forever Revelation 14:11 as literal, then one must interpret Isaiah 34:10 in the same way. But that wouldn't make any sense if you were to do that, though. The city mentioned in Isaiah is obviously still not burning today.

Also what Law must we abide by to be saved?

Well, it is not only obedience to God's Commands but it is also by faith that saves, too. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. So one needs both faith and works if they are to live out their faith and have true salvation. But believers today obey the Commands in the New Testament and not the Old Testament. For even the moral laws in the Old are unlike the moral laws in the New. For there is no death penalties attached for disobeying select moral laws in the New like it was done in the Old.

Grace Community International has a ton of good articles on this topic.
Here are two really good ones:
https://www.gci.org/law/which
https://www.gci.org/law/lawmoses

And here is a list of 1,050+ New Testament Commands:
https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

I have discovered more New Testament Commands than what they have listed.
In fact, even believing on Jesus Christ is a New Testament Commandment (1 John 3:23).
So when folks tell me they are not under any Law (or Command), then they cannot be under the Law in 1 John 3:23, too.

“For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Galatians 3 is not talking about ALL Law. It is talking about the Law of Moses. Paul on occasion also talked about the Law as in reference to the Law of Moses in other books, too; But on occasion, in other books, Paul also talked about relying on Law alone without a Savior (Who provides grace and mercy), as well. But in Galatians 3, Paul is talking about the Law of Moses or the 613 Commands in the Old Covenant. How so? Galatians 3:24 says, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Does that mean there was no faith to be justified by in the Old Covenant? Surely not. Paul is talking about being justified by faith in Jesus Christ in the New Covenant. Also, Galatians chapter 2 talks about "circumcision." Is circumiscion a part of the Old Law or the New Law? Surely it is a part of the Old Law.

As I recall we live by faith not by the law.

Many times, Paul attacks the Pharisee religion (Which is Works Alone Salvationism). Why? Because he used to be a Pharisee. Anyways, in the Pharisee religion, it was all about Law and no grace and or no Savior or God to save them. It was all works and no faith in God as their Savior. In other words, they believed in Works Alone Salvationism. So this is why Paul talked the way he did. He is saying we live by faith (which naturally produces obedience to God's Laws) and not the Law alone without a Savior or without grace.

Works and obedience to the commandments of Christ are the fruits of our faith.

I agree.

Anyways, I hope you will come to understand where I am coming from.
May God's love shine upon you.
And please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.



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