Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?

[Bible Highlighter]

and in a previous post I admitted to not misunderstanding the phrase unrepentant. I took it to mean sin you have not yet confessed. But I see now that you mean it as sin one is refusing to repent and continues to live in. If this person were to tell me once saved always saved. I would tell them to read the bible and see what it means to be saved and a follower of Christ and seriously ask themselves if the Holy Spirit dwells in them.



Here is my problem with that and it is not biblical I will admit that. But If lying is a sin and we do not repent for it we are all going to hell. We are all liars. We all tell little lies from time to time. Whether you mean to or not. That does not mean we should knowingly lie or justify it because we are OSAS. But we all slip up and the day gets busy and we forget all about it. So alot of us probably 99.9% are going to hell for not repenting of a lie.



So you are saying there is sin you can not repent of and not recieve forgiveness for?




I should of clarified a little all believers WERE evil before Christ. It is Christ who makes us Holy.



Does the bible rank one sin over a other? Is beating your wife worse then homosexuality? Or is lying worse then adultery? I see no scoreboard for sin.



I do not think if I live Holy I will be saved. I have never said such a thing. There is nothing I can do to save myself. There is only one way to the Father and that is through Christ Jesus. Jesus saved me.

Hebrews 10:10-14:

By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

notice Paul says Jesus "offered one sacrifice for sins for all time." All time not just past or present but all time. Because if Jesus's sacrifice did not cover sin for all time then he would have to be crucified over and over. What hope is there in that?

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


As far as dying in sin. If I follow Christ and accept him fully yet forgot to repent of a sin I am still saved. I will not be banished for forgetting to repent about a lie I told a year ago.

Hebrews 10:26
"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,"

key word deliberately. So a person who claims once saved always saved and knowingly lives in sin is not saved and was never saved. They clearly do not have the Holy Spirit residing in them. but if our sins were not deliberate then there still remains a sacrifice.

Well, if I am understanding you correctly, I do not see how justifying a little bit of sin vs. (versus) a lot of sin is any different from each other. Both make room for a person to think they can do evil and yet also serve God. For Adam just committed one sin and it caused a separation between God and all of mankind.


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[Kaleb5000]

Well, if I am understanding you correctly, I do not see how justifying a little bit of sin vs. (versus) a lot of sin is any different from each other. Both make room for a person to think they can do evil and yet also serve God. For Adam just committed one sin and it caused a separation between God and all of mankind.


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You really did not answer any of my questions or address anything I said.

Adam commited one sin that effected all man kind. Jesus sacrificed himself for the sin of all man kind.

I am not sure the type of Christians you know. But I know no Christian who thinks they can run around and do evil things and still serve God.

OSAS if you are a believer and follower of Christ. To follow Christ is to live to carry out the Fathers will.

OSAS if you continually live in sin and never repent. No such thing. Because you do not know Christ nor love him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You really did not answer any of my questions or address anything I said.

Adam commited one sin that effected all man kind. Jesus sacrificed himself for the sin of all man kind.

I am not sure the type of Christians you know. But I know no Christian who thinks they can run around and do evil things and still serve God.

OSAS if you are a believer and follower of Christ. To follow Christ is to live to carry out the Fathers will.

OSAS if you continually live in sin and never repent. No such thing. Because you do not know Christ nor love him.

I did not reply to all of what you wrote because I am limited on time in replying. For I am busy today. Also, you wrote a lot. So it will take time to give you a proper reply with Scripture.

Anyways, before you said we are evil and it is Christ who makes us holy and that future sin is forgiven for a believer. I have a problem with these claims. For one, there are people out there who think you can be filthy as a barn yard animal spiritually and yet be saved. They will also say the same thing you are saying here. Future sin is forgiven. We are evil. Christ makes you holy (in the sense that He imputed his righteousness to you even if you commit unrepentant grievous sins like lying). You are almost singing the same song. Although slightly different. Both of your beliefs make an excuse for sin. For you said before that a believer could slip up in the sin of lying (without repenting of it) and still be saved. Second, the other big problem is that your belief does not match up with the Bible or a standard of morality. God is good and He would never allow one of His people to think they could commit even one really bad sin with the thinking they are saved. Why? Because Christ (God) would have to agree with such wrong thinking in order to save you. But that is not possible because God cannot agree with sin.


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[Kaleb5000]

I did not reply to all of what you wrote because I am limited on time in replying. For I am busy today. Also, you wrote a lot. So it will take time to give you a proper reply with Scripture.

Understood. I have the benefit of working from home the last couple days. (self employed)

Anyways, before you said we are evil and it is Christ who makes us holy and that future sin is forgiven for a believer. I have a problem with these claims. For one, there are people out there who think you can be filthy as a barn yard animal spiritually and yet be saved.

Do you not agree we were evil and it is Christ that makes us Holy? We dont make ourselves Holy.

The people out there they think they can live a filthy life and be saved are wrong. They are not saved. However they can live a fithly life accept Christ, repent of it and be saved.

They will also say the same thing you are saying here. Future sin is forgiven.

If you sin tomorrow and repent is it not forgiven? Of course, therefeor all sin for all time is covered by the cross.

Second, the other big problem is that your belief does not match up with the Bible or a standard of morality.

What belief? and what scripture? I beleive my belief matches the bible.

God is good and He would never allow one of His people to think they could commit even one really bad sin with the thinking they are saved.

You are 100% correct. Again if this is a persons thinking I would question whether or not they are really saved.

I dont beleive we are really that far off in our thinking. I just beleive Once you accept Christ and follow him daily you are always saved. Because once you accept Christ and receive the Holy Spirit you are going to want to become more Christ like and carry out the will of the father for the remainder of your days here on earth. For the rest of my life I can follow Christ. I can make mistakes (sins) and repent of them and still receive the gift that was given to me.

If you accepted Christ as your savior and then use that salvation to justify evil then you were never saved in my opinion. Only God knows for sure however.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Well, nowhere did I say one cannot repent of their sins (i.e. to confess and forsake sin) and be forgiven. I was saying if one died in the sin of murder, or the sin of lying, or the sin of adultery, etc. without repenting of it (before they die), they will not be forgiven or saved (Revelation 21:8) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Luke 13:3) (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 2:3-6) (Proverbs 28:13) (Matthew 12:41 cf. Jonah 3:6-10). Ananias and Sapphira died immediately for their lying to the Holy Spirit, and a great fear fell upon the church and all who heard it. Now, if they were in God's Kingdom or paradise, it wouldn't make sense if others experienced the emotion of fear. They would feel sorrow because they miss them but not fear. For Paul says to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Yes, I gathered that was a misunderstanding.

Now, I do not believe the Scriptures teach all sin is the same. Jesus said there is a "greater sin." There are sins that lead to death (the second death or the Lake of fire) and sins (minor faults and not serious sins, like not being baptized - 1 Peter 3:21) that do not lead to death (1 John 5:16-18). There are also unforgivable type sins. Those who worship the beast and take his mark do not even have their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. Those who commit the sin of speaking blasphemy (bad words) against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven in this life or the one to come (the Millennium). If one commits suicide and is not brought back to life by doctors or a miracle of God (whereby they will have a chance to repent of it), they are not forgiven. If a believer had the Holy Spirit and the gifts thereof and they decided to reject Jesus, they are not saved. Please take note that Peter did not have the Spirit when he rejected His Lord. But do I believe it is possible for a believer to not reject Jesus and yet backslide into a life of sin and become unsaved by their sin? Yes. But I also believe they can return back to God in this case and be forgiven of their life style of sin. This is illustrated to us in the parable of the prodigal son and James 5:19-20.

Just the fact there were different punishments for different sins in the days of Moses tells me they are not the same.

OSAS Type #1 says you can sin as much as you like and still be saved. All one needs is a belief on Jesus as their Savior.

OSAS Type #2 is a little more deceptive and requires a little more investigative work to get them to spill the beans to eventually admit their own belief. They are basically saying you have to generally live a holy life to be a believer but dying in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) does not mean one is not saved. Basically you can get away with a little bit of sin versus a lot of sin.

There does seem to be a couple of main classifications to the OSAS, and that covers them pretty well.

I agree with most all you say, with one possible exception. Say someone loved God with all their heart, did real well by him for most of their life, they do one of the damnable sins, and some crazy accident for instance fairly immediately takes their life before they get right again. I think in a case like that, God might make an exception, as well as for other variables that are too numerous to try to name. He knows who we are inside, and there will be a judgment, maybe much like judgment here and now with our legal system where there are extenuating circumstances.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Are the righteous "scarcely" saved by what Christ has done or some other means?

Both.

 

[Kaleb5000]

I agree with most all you say, with one possible exception. Say someone loved God with all their heart, did real well by him for most of their life, they do one of the damnable sins, and some crazy accident for instance fairly immediately takes their life before they get right again. I think in a case like that, God might make an exception, as well as for other variables that are too numerous to try to name. He knows who we are inside, and there will be a judgment, maybe much like judgment here and now with our legal system where there are extenuating circumstances.

I beleive this verse addresses this and answers your question

Romans 9:15-16

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

 

[Dave-W]

But at least you clarified what you mean by secret sins. So "secret sins" are sins you are not aware of.... If so, in committing such sins did you lose your salvation? If there is some time frame allowance between sin and repentance as you seem to allude to, then what happens if you die prior to repentance - die guilty of some unrepented sins?

Sounds like a sermon or 2 that I heard when I was growing up. I will render it as close as I can remember it.

You can come down to this altar tonight and get everything right with God. Then you get up, grab your coat, leave and go across the street to go to your car, get hit, die and go STRAIGHT TO HELL because you already committed 20 sins you don't know nothing about before you ever hit that door.......

And a few weeks later:

We aught to have some one down here at the altar with a six gun and blow everyone away while they are still on their knees. it is the only way to guarantee they die and go to heaven.

 

[Dave-W]

Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?

You know, are there believers today who treat serious sins (like murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc.) as if it was like we spilled a glass of milk before God?

I would have to answer both of these questions with a "yes."

Why? Well,, when I hear certain believers speak about sin: It makes it sound like God is saying this to them when they sin:

GOD:

"Aw, that's okay, my child. You just spilled a little milk. I can clean that up. It is not that big of a deal."
To me, that is what it sounds like whenever hear certain Christians say that a believer can abide in unrepentant sin like (lusting after a woman or lying) and still be saved (as long as they have a belief on Jesus).

They say a believer will be chastised. But is that really a form of punishment? Do not even unbelievers go thru the same challenges as unbelievers?

I have known many who fit that description and preach it from their pulpits. It comes from taking "Saved by faith and not works" to an illogical extreme.

So any avoidance of sin becomes "works," repentance becomes "works," and have actually heard some say that faith is "works." (based on Jn 6.29) And if we have "works," then we are cursed and our salvation is null and void. (Misunderstanding of Galatians)

 

[bcbsr]

Well, if I am understanding you correctly, I do not see how justifying a little bit of sin vs. (versus) a lot of sin is any different from each other. Both make room for a person to think they can do evil and yet also serve God. For Adam just committed one sin and it caused a separation between God and all of mankind.


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Wait a minute, you previously said, and I quote, "Hidden of secret faults are ONLY minor transgressions" and yet you seemed to think that those won't cause you to lose your salvation.

So which is it Jason0047? Do you think a little bit of sin causes you to lose your salvation or not?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, I gathered that was a misunderstanding.

I am glad.

Just the fact there were different punishments for different sins in the days of Moses tells me they are not the same.

I believe the Law of the Old Covenant (or the Law of Moses) (the 613 Commands) are no longer applicable for the believer today. Even the moral laws like do not murder are slightly different under the New Covenant because under the Old Covenant there were death penalties attached to breaking certain moral laws in the Old. Believers today excusively follow the Commands in the New Covenant. This does not mean we can reduce salvation to mere Law alone. But the Commands are very important piece or part of the salvation process because it is the good work that Christ wants to do thru us (Who is the source of our salvation).

There does seem to be a couple of main classifications to the OSAS, and that covers them pretty well.

Thank you. The third version of OSAS (OSAS Type #3) says that if one does not live holy then one was never born again to begin with. This version of OSAS does not justify sin. They believe one has to live holy and righteous always and there is no excuse for sin. But I disagree with even this version of OSAS because it is not Biblical and it makes one doubt the promises of God.

I agree with most all you say, with one possible exception. Say someone loved God with all their heart, did real well by him for most of their life, they do one of the damnable sins, and some crazy accident for instance fairly immediately takes their life before they get right again. I think in a case like that, God might make an exception, as well as for other variables that are too numerous to try to name. He knows who we are inside, and there will be a judgment, maybe much like judgment here and now with our legal system where there are extenuating circumstances.

There are no exceptions for dying in unrepentant sin that leads to death. God is the giver and taker of life. So death is no accident. If God is merciful and desires for a person to repent and God knows their heart that they will do so and live honorably for the Lord the rest of their life, then God will let them live so as to repent instead of taking their life without giving them a chance to repent.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Wait a minute, you previously said, and I quote, "Hidden of secret faults are ONLY minor transgressions" and yet you seemed to think that those won't cause you to lose your salvation.

So which is it Jason0047? Do you think a little bit of sin causes you to lose your salvation or not?

When I speak of a little bit of sin that can cause one to forfeit their salvation, I am talking about sins that excusively lead unto the Second Death (Like lying, murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, and drunkenness, etc.). Hidden or secret faults are not the type of transgressions that Jesus and his followers ascribe to a person being a sinner. These types of transgressions are minor and they do not lead to the Second Death. There are also transgressions that do not lead unto death that we can consciously commit or be aware of, too. For example: Not being baptized is not a transgression that leads unto the Second Death (1 Peter 3:21).


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[Bible Highlighter]

I beleive this verse addresses this and answers your question

Romans 9:15-16

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Yeah, but see, God cannot honor us breaking or stretching His own commands within a Covenant He intends for us to follow. For they are called Commands for a reason. For if what you say was true, then we could not trust that God was being fair and true to His Word, morality, and fair justice in every given situation.

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[Bible Highlighter]

I have known many who fit that description and preach it from their pulpits. It comes from taking "Saved by faith and not works" to an illogical extreme.

So any avoidance of sin becomes "works," repentance becomes "works," and have actually heard some say that faith is "works." (based on Jn 6.29) And if we have "works," then we are cursed and our salvation is null and void. (Misunderstanding of Galatians)

We have to pray for them (And I mean in a big way).


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[Kaleb5000]

Yeah, but see, God cannot honor us breaking or stretching His own commands within a Covenant He intends for us to follow. For they are called Commands for a reason. For if what you say was true, then we could not trust that God was being fair and true to His Word, morality, and fair justice in every given situation.

...

So are you saying God can not show mercy on who he chooses?

Or show compassion on who he chooses to show compassion?

This is in the situation the other person posted about someone dying before having time to repent.

I would only like a answer with in that context.


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[FireDragon76]

This reminds me of something in the life of Confucius.

Confucius wandered around China with his disciples looking for people to listen to him, because he found most people in power ignored his wisdom. One time he went to a king seeking advice, and the king asked him how he could go about finding honest officials to work for him. Confucius replied "Be honest yourself".

So that's the answer. Instead of criticizing other Christians for supposedly minimizing their own sins, focus on what you yourself really have the power to change- yourself. Nobody has ever been threatened, shamed, or guilted into doing the right thing. Laws only restrain evil, they do not create goodness.

 

[Kaleb5000]

This reminds me of something in the life of Confucius.

Confucius wandered around China with his disciples looking for people to listen to him, because he found most people in power ignored his wisdom. One time he went to a king seeking advice, and the king asked him how he could go about finding honest officials to work for him. Confucius replied "Be honest yourself".

So that's the answer. Instead of criticizing other Christians for supposedly minimizing their own sins, focus on what you yourself really have the power to change- yourself. Nobody has ever been threatened, shamed, or guilted into doing the right thing. Laws only restrain evil, they do not create goodness.

You said " focus on what you yourself have the power to change"

Very true and something my Pastor says often.


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[FireDragon76]

I don't believe in "once saved, always saved". But I don't want to really debate that as it is a neverending source of contention between various kinds of Christians, particularly the Reformed vs. Arminians and Lutherans. However, that doesn't mean I think moralism or legalism actually is capable of getting people to do genuine good works. It produces a kind of pharisaical approach to living that is worse than unbelief, and much worse than merely being a sinner. While the sinner can often be made to realize a problem exists, the Pharisee has a much harder heart and is often immune to criticism because they have God on their side.

I don't know any Christians that think murder, theft, or lying are good things.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So are you saying God can not show mercy on who he chooses?

Or show compassion on who he chooses to show compassion?

This is in the situation the other person posted about someone dying before having time to repent.

I would only like a answer with in that context.


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Not within the frame work of breaking His laws. No. As for Scripture: What are you specifically looking for?


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[Kaleb5000]

I don't believe in "once saved, always saved". But I don't want to really debate that as it is a neverending source of contention between various kinds of Christians, particularly the Reformed vs. Arminians and Lutherans. However, that doesn't mean I think moralism or legalism actually is capable of getting people to do genuine good works. It produces a kind of pharisaical approach to living that is worse than unbelief, and much worse than merely being a sinner. While the sinner can often be made to realize a problem exists, the Pharisee has a much harder heart and is often immune to criticism because they have God on their side.

I don't know any Christians that think murder, theft, or lying are good things.

The only thing I will say about these discussions is it can make people get into scripture and search for the truth. It can help you grow in your faith as long as it is approached with humbleness and not be out to prove someone wrong.

I like discussing scripture because I learn so much in doing so. I'm in the word constantly through out the day and these discussions get me in the word even more.

Like you said though we should focus on what we can change not what we can't. We can't control people. We can only share the good news and why we hold so much hope in it.




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