Ten Commandments still valid so says Bible and pro-Sunday Scholars

[bugkiller]

Is the Sabbath is BINDING on both Jews and also gentile believers? Let's answer the question "sola scriptura" and in so doing -- return to the actual subject of the thread.

In the OT Isaiah 66:23 states explicitly that the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" in Is 66:23

This verse says absolutely nothing about the Sabbath.

In Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" -- Adam and Eve.

Please explain how you get that from this passage when it says nothing about the Sabbath.

In Mark 2:27 the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" -- "The Sabbath was made for mankind"

Not in the context of this verse. Jesus is having a conversation with Jews. Besides such a position violates Ex 31:13. So either Moses is correct or Jesus is correct. It simply can't be both.

In Rev 14:7 it is all mankind that is called to worship God who "created the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" - a quote from the Sabbath commandment

Sorry but tat can't be found in my Bible version of the 10 Cs found in Ex 20.

in Heb 4 "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people God" actually quotes the Sabbath Commandment and says it 'remains' just as it was in Psalms 95.

This verse says nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. "Sabbath rest" is a single word in the Greek. It isn't the Greek word used for Sabbath.

In Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus".

You have no idea about what John is saying. You think and believe the verse says the 10 Cs and the faith of Jesus is some religious belief system. Neither are true.

In 56:1-8 the Gentiles are singled out and specifically blessed for keeping the weekly Sabbath.

You have a reading problem. It says plainly joined themselves to the Lord meaning the covenant issued at Sinai. Ex 12:48 applies to this person and not the stranger.

James 2 points specifically to the TEN Commandments and says that the common element that would make us "guilty of all" is based on "He who said" -- and as it turns out God said all ten of them not just nine.

Not at all what James says. First James is speaking to Jews. Second James is saying violate one of the commandments and you're guilty of breaking the whole law. IOW the Law is a single indivisible unit.

In Eph 6:2 - the entire unit of TEN is being identified when the text says "Honor thy father and mother for this is the FIRST commandment with a promise" -- that requires a specific unit of Law -- and is only true of the TEN.

True and Paul isn't requiring this of parents who also have parents. It simply doesn't apply to everyone.

Ex 20:8-11 it is BOTH Israel AND the gentile that "stays within their gates" that is bound to keep the Sabbath.

You even point out to which gentiles this applies to. Its limited by those specifics.

In Acts 18:4 both Gentiles AND Jews are worshiping "every Sabbath" so also in Acts 17:1-4 so also in Acts 13.

Big deal. That simply doesn't show obligation.

In your own statement you admit that the Jews would have known that the TEN Commandments - including the 4th Commandment were included in the "LAW of God" - so then when Jeremiah says that the NEW Covenant includes God writing His "LAW on our heart and mind" both Jeremiah and HIS readers would have known that it was sin to violate the Sabbath and that the 4th Commandment was included in God's moral LAW.

Your idea of this passage won't stand up to the text oft he passage. The passage says "new...Not according to..." and includes this conjunction showing a difference "But."

Facts so glaringly obvious that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship does not turn a blind-eye to this particular Bible "detail" -- as we saw on page 1 of this thread
Feb 13, 2015 #1

Malarkey

Which helps the serious Bible student avoid the blunder of imagining that only SDAs see this Bible detail.

Nope, it doesn't.

bugkiller[/quote][/quote]

 

[bugkiller]

I'll try again.

bugkiller

 

[The Hammer of Witches]

[FONT=&quot]Are God's Ten Commandments still valid ??

That is the primary question to be answered on this section of the board.

And the irrefutable response from scripture is ... "yes".

========================

Here we have the NT text providing examples from the TEN Commandments -- affirming them as "still" valid.

And of course scripture is -- true.

=========================

Matt 19
And someone came to Him and said;Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life 17 And He said to him, Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments; 18 Then he *said to Him, Which ones? And Jesus said,
You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother;
and
You shall love your neighbor as yourself


"what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19


Matt 5
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

What law? The Law that condemns all mankind as sinners -

Rom 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

That same law - same chapter

"do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

Note Paul says in Romans 3 that this is the Law that defines sin and condemns the entire world as sinners... that would not be "the Law about Passover". That does not condemn gentiles at all.
.
...

The context in Romans 3 is not Psalms but rather the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin.

Which I think even you will admit is not simply the Psalms - but the TEN Commandments written on stone the "LAW of death" as Paul calls it in 2Cor 3.

2 Cor 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away ==============================

(So then the moral law of God is being affirmed by all of scripture "the Law and the Prophets" a term that specifies all of OT "scripture")

Matt 22 "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it."

Any part of scripture read could fall under that title.

Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

=================================

Rom 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


Rom 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;

and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

While the law is fulfilled, the Ten Commandments are more than requirements of the law. They are commandments against sin. Coveting, lying, stealing, etc. are all sins, so yes, keeping the Ten Commandments is staying out of sin and walking as Christ wants us to.

 

[BobRyan]

Is the Sabbath is BINDING on both Jews and also gentile believers? Let's answer the question "sola scriptura" and in so doing -- return to the actual subject of the thread.

In the OT Isaiah 66:23 states explicitly that the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" in Is 66:23
In Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" -- Adam and Eve.
In Mark 2:27 the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" -- "The Sabbath was made for mankind"
In Rev 14:7 it is all mankind that is called to worship God who "created the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" - a quote from the Sabbath commandment
in Heb 4 "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people God" actually quotes the Sabbath Commandment and says it 'remains' just as it was in Psalms 95.
In Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus".
In 56:1-8 the Gentiles are singled out and specifically blessed for keeping the weekly Sabbath.
James 2 points specifically to the TEN Commandments and says that the common element that would make us "guilty of all" is based on "He who said" -- and as it turns out God said all ten of them not just nine.
In Eph 6:2 - the entire unit of TEN is being identified when the text says "Honor thy father and mother for this is the FIRST commandment with a promise" -- that requires a specific unit of Law -- and is only true of the TEN.
Ex 20:8-11 it is BOTH Israel AND the gentile that "stays within their gates" that is bound to keep the Sabbath.
In Acts 18:4 both Gentiles AND Jews are worshiping "every Sabbath" so also in Acts 17:1-4 so also in Acts 13.

Many today can bring themselves to admit admit that the Jews would have known that the TEN Commandments - including the 4th Commandment were included in the "LAW of God" - so then when Jeremiah says that the NEW Covenant includes God writing His "LAW on our heart and mind" both Jeremiah and HIS readers would have known that it was sin to violate the Sabbath and that the 4th Commandment was included in God's moral LAW.

Facts so glaringly obvious that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship does not turn a blind-eye to this particular Bible "detail" -- as we saw on page 1 of this thread
Feb 13, 2015 #1

Which helps the serious Bible student avoid the blunder of imagining that only SDAs see this Bible detail.

Here we have the perfect contrast in our views -- mine is "sola scriptura" and yours is ...

This verse says absolutely nothing about the Sabbath.Please explain how you get that from this passage when it says nothing about the Sabbath.Not in the context of this verse. Jesus is having a conversation with Jews. Besides such a position violates Ex 31:13. So either Moses is correct or Jesus is correct. It simply can't be both.Sorry but tat can't be found in my Bible version of the 10 Cs found in Ex 20.This verse says nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. "Sabbath rest" is a single word in the Greek. It isn't the Greek word used for Sabbath.You have no idea about what John is saying. You think and believe the verse says the 10 Cs and the faith of Jesus is some religious belief system. Neither are true.You have a reading problem. It says plainly joined themselves to the Lord meaning the covenant issued at Sinai. Ex 12:48 applies to this person and not the stranger.Not at all what James says. First James is speaking to Jews. Second James is saying violate one of the commandments and you're guilty of breaking the whole law. IOW the Law is a single indivisible unit.True and Paul isn't requiring this of parents who also have parents. It simply doesn't apply to everyone.You even point out to which gentiles this applies to. Its limited by those specifics.Big deal. That simply doesn't show obligation.Your idea of this passage won't stand up to the text oft he passage. The passage says "new...Not according to..." and includes this conjunction showing a difference "But."MalarkeyNope, it doesn't.

bugkiller

Sola "you quote you"

Deut 6:4 "Love God with all your heart"
Matt 22 "Love God with all your heart"

Moses, and Jesus - having a conversation with Jews.

This is "supposed to cause us to reject this part of the bible"?? -- well as it turns out - it doesn't work like that in real life.

meanwhile you have ignored every detail in the texts listed -- and no wonder.. .it is because they are irrefutable.

Don't be surprised then that they fail to "vanish" each time you fail to refute them.

 

[bugkiller]

Hi David - and welcome.

Paul talks about Christians not being under the condemnation of the LAW at the same time he says that only the wicked refuse to submit to it - in Romans 8:4-9.

No sir! Paul is talking about the carnal Christian opposed to the wicked. The law tries to regulate the flesh which isn't subject to the law. The law is about carnal obedience.

Such that the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:6-10 writes the LAW of God known to Jeremiah on the heart and mind of the saints.

Once again that law isn't the law issued at Sinai. That is the law they broke. Proof is the reason Israel went into exile for 70 years.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

So then when we read that "from SAbbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 does that give us some hint as to what it means to remember the day that is a "memorial" of God's creative act "For in SIX days the Lord made... and God rested the seventh day - blessed it -- made it holy".

No!

And when we read in Lev 23:1-4 that it is one of the days of "Holy convocation" does that give us any sort of hint?

No!

And we see that even the gentiles in Acts 18:4 are in the synagogues "every Sabbath" does that give us a hint?

No!

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Here we have the perfect contrast in our views -- mine is "sola scriptura" and yours is ...



Sola "you quote you"

Where and what? All you did was sever my responses from your ideas.

Deut 6:4 "Love God with all your heart"
Matt 22 "Love God with all your heart"

Moses, and Jesus - having a conversation with Jews.

Yeppers! But what does that have to do with MK2:27?

This is "supposed to cause us to reject this part of the bible"?? -- well as it turns out - it doesn't work like that in real life.

What are carrying on about? Maybe you think or rather promote I support untruths? You did nothing to promote your idea about MK 2:27 as valid.

meanwhile you have ignored every detail in the texts listed -- and no wonder.. .it is because they are irrefutable.

What detail have I ignored?

Don't be surprised then that they fail to "vanish" each time you fail to refute them.

I'm not afraid any details will vanish. OTH you do.

bugkiller

 

[klutedavid]

Hi David - and welcome.
Paul talks about Christians not being under the condemnation of the LAW at the same time he says that only the wicked refuse to submit to it - in Romans 8:4-9.

Hello Bob.

I will repeat a verse from a previous post to refresh your memory.

Romans 6
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

In reply to this statement by Paul, you proposed the following interpretation.

Paul talks about Christians not being under the condemnation of the LAW at the same time he says that
only the wicked refuse to submit to it - in Romans 8:4-9.

In your reply Bob, you are suggesting an association between these two ideas that Paul presents, the first idea
Paul advances is we are 'not under law'. And the second idea that Paul mentions, that we are under not
under the condemnation of the law. If I understand your reply correctly Bob, you are reading the initial phrase,
'not under law' as meaning not under the condemnation of the law?

So we will rewrite the verse above according to the way that you seem to be reading that verse.

Romans 6
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under (the condemnation of the law) but under grace.

Is that correct Bob, is that the way you read this verse (Romans 6:14)?

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

I will repeat a verse from a previous post to refresh your memory.

Romans 6
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Thanks for bringing up Romans 6 -- it is difficult for some members here to read that chapter or comment on it - since it is so clear in affirming the Law of God that defines what sin is and our need to not be in rebellion against it.

First a little background from Romans 3 and 1 John 3.



Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the LAW by our faith? God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

And 1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" even in the NT -- still

In Romans 3:19-20 Paul explains the term "UNDER the LAW" means condemned by the LAW as a sinner and going to hell.

So then in Romans 6 the point is made for those who are under the Gospel and no longer going to hell. Does Paul say in Romans 6 that continued rebellion against the LAW of God is going to work for Christians??

So then Romans 6 "Under the LAW" vs "Under Grace"

Rom 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
..

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

===============================

In reply to this statement by Paul, you proposed the following interpretation.

Paul talks about Christians (saved born-again saints) not being under the condemnation of the LAW at the same time he says that
only the wicked refuse to submit to it - in Romans 8:4-9.

In your reply Bob, you are suggesting an association between these two ideas that Paul presents, the first idea
Paul advances is we are 'not under law'. And the second idea that Paul mentions, that we are under not
under the condemnation of the law. If I understand your reply correctly Bob, you are reading the initial phrase,
'not under law' as meaning not under the condemnation of the law?

That is true.

Hence Paul's affirmation of the saints keeping the LAW in 1Cor 7:19 and Romans 8:4-9

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Notice how Paul in Romans 6 and 1Cor 7:19 is so very like John in 1 John 5:3-4

So we will rewrite the verse above according to the way that you seem to be reading that verse.

Romans 6
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under (the condemnation of the law) but under grace.

Is that correct Bob, is that the way you read this verse (Romans 6:14)?

That is correct - and that is why Paul in Romans 6 is so adamant that Christians not sin even though we know that in the New Testament "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Thank you again for being willing to take time and focus on the details in Romans 6.

 

[BobRyan]

Is the Sabbath is BINDING on both Jews and also gentile believers? Let's answer the question "sola scriptura" and in so doing -- return to the actual subject of the thread.

In the OT Isaiah 66:23 states explicitly that the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" in Is 66:23
In Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" -- Adam and Eve.
In Mark 2:27 the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" -- "The Sabbath was made for mankind"
In Rev 14:7 it is all mankind that is called to worship God who "created the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" - a quote from the Sabbath commandment
in Heb 4 "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people God" actually quotes the Sabbath Commandment and says it 'remains' just as it was in Psalms 95.
In Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus".
In 56:1-8 the Gentiles are singled out and specifically blessed for keeping the weekly Sabbath.
James 2 points specifically to the TEN Commandments and says that the common element that would make us "guilty of all" is based on "He who said" -- and as it turns out God said all ten of them not just nine.
In Eph 6:2 - the entire unit of TEN is being identified when the text says "Honor thy father and mother for this is the FIRST commandment with a promise" -- that requires a specific unit of Law -- and is only true of the TEN.
Ex 20:8-11 it is BOTH Israel AND the gentile that "stays within their gates" that is bound to keep the Sabbath.
In Acts 18:4 both Gentiles AND Jews are worshiping "every Sabbath" so also in Acts 17:1-4 so also in Acts 13.

Many today can bring themselves to admit admit that the Jews would have known that the TEN Commandments - including the 4th Commandment were included in the "LAW of God" - so then when Jeremiah says that the NEW Covenant includes God writing His "LAW on our heart and mind" both Jeremiah and HIS readers would have known that it was sin to violate the Sabbath and that the 4th Commandment was included in God's moral LAW.

Facts so glaringly obvious that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship does not turn a blind-eye to this particular Bible "detail" -- as we saw on page 1 of this thread
Feb 13, 2015 #1

Which helps the serious Bible student avoid the blunder of imagining that only SDAs see this Bible detail.

Here we have the perfect contrast in our views -- mine is "sola scriptura" and yours is ...

This verse says absolutely nothing about the Sabbath.Please explain how you get that from this passage when it says nothing about the Sabbath.Not in the context of this verse. Jesus is having a conversation with Jews. Besides such a position violates Ex 31:13. So either Moses is correct or Jesus is correct. It simply can't be both.Sorry but tat can't be found in my Bible version of the 10 Cs found in Ex 20.This verse says nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. "Sabbath rest" is a single word in the Greek. It isn't the Greek word used for Sabbath.You have no idea about what John is saying. You think and believe the verse says the 10 Cs and the faith of Jesus is some religious belief system. Neither are true.You have a reading problem. It says plainly joined themselves to the Lord meaning the covenant issued at Sinai. Ex 12:48 applies to this person and not the stranger.Not at all what James says. First James is speaking to Jews. Second James is saying violate one of the commandments and you're guilty of breaking the whole law. IOW the Law is a single indivisible unit.True and Paul isn't requiring this of parents who also have parents. It simply doesn't apply to everyone.You even point out to which gentiles this applies to. Its limited by those specifics.Big deal. That simply doesn't show obligation.Your idea of this passage won't stand up to the text oft he passage. The passage says "new...Not according to..." and includes this conjunction showing a difference "But."MalarkeyNope, it doesn't.

bugkiller

Sola "you quote you"

Deut 6:4 "Love God with all your heart"
Matt 22 "Love God with all your heart"

Moses, and Jesus - having a conversation with Jews.

This is "supposed to cause us to reject this part of the bible"?? -- well as it turns out - it doesn't work like that in real life.

meanwhile you have ignored every detail in the texts listed -- and no wonder.. .it is because they are irrefutable.

Don't be surprised then that they fail to "vanish" each time you fail to refute them.

Where and what? All you did was sever my responses from your ideas.Yeppers! But what does that have to do with MK2:27?What are carrying on about? Maybe you think or rather promote I support untruths? You did nothing to promote your idea about MK 2:27 as valid.What detail have I ignored?I'm not afraid any details will vanish. OTH you do.
bugkiller

until you read the actual post that said this --

Is the Sabbath is BINDING on both Jews and also gentile believers? Let's answer the question "sola scriptura" and in so doing -- return to the actual subject of the thread.

In the OT Isaiah 66:23 states explicitly that the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" in Is 66:23
In Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" -- Adam and Eve.
In Mark 2:27 the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" -- "The Sabbath was made for mankind"
In Rev 14:7 it is all mankind that is called to worship God who "created the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" - a quote from the Sabbath commandment
in Heb 4 "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people God" actually quotes the Sabbath Commandment and says it 'remains' just as it was in Psalms 95.
In Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus".
In 56:1-8 the Gentiles are singled out and specifically blessed for keeping the weekly Sabbath.
James 2 points specifically to the TEN Commandments and says that the common element that would make us "guilty of all" is based on "He who said" -- and as it turns out God said all ten of them not just nine.
In Eph 6:2 - the entire unit of TEN is being identified when the text says "Honor thy father and mother for this is the FIRST commandment with a promise" -- that requires a specific unit of Law -- and is only true of the TEN.
Ex 20:8-11 it is BOTH Israel AND the gentile that "stays within their gates" that is bound to keep the Sabbath.
In Acts 18:4 both Gentiles AND Jews are worshiping "every Sabbath" so also in Acts 17:1-4 so also in Acts 13.

 

[bugkiller]

In Romans 3:19-20 Paul explains the term "UNDER the LAW" means condemned by the LAW as a sinner and going to hell.

How, when Paul says -

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8

Could it be that you're walking after the flesh and adhering to laws governing the flesh?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Here we have the perfect contrast in our views -- mine is "sola scriptura" and yours is ...

I asked and made statements about your verses. Would you care to respond to those comments rather than make some blanket denial and self edifying statement?

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks for bringing up Romans 6 -- it is difficult for some members here to read that chapter or comment on it - since it is so clear in affirming the Law of God that defines what sin is and our need to not be in rebellion against it.

First a little background from Romans 3 and 1 John 3.



Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the LAW by our faith? God forbid! IN fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

And 1 John 3:4 "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" even in the NT -- still

In Romans 3:19-20 Paul explains the term "UNDER the LAW" means condemned by the LAW as a sinner and going to hell.

So then in Romans 6 the point is made for those who are under the Gospel and no longer going to hell. Does Paul say in Romans 6 that continued rebellion against the LAW of God is going to work for Christians??

So then Romans 6 "Under the LAW" vs "Under Grace"

Rom 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
..

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

===============================



That is true.

Hence Paul's affirmation of the saints keeping the LAW in 1Cor 7:19 and Romans 8:4-9

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Notice how Paul in Romans 6 and 1Cor 7:19 is so very like John in 1 John 5:3-4



That is correct - and that is why Paul in Romans 6 is so adamant that Christians not sin even though we know that in the New Testament "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Thank you again for being willing to take time and focus on the details in Romans 6.

So then -- is the Sabbath BINDING on both Jews and also gentile believers? Let's answer the question "sola scriptura" and in so doing -- return to the actual subject of the thread.

In the OT Isaiah 66:23 states explicitly that the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" in Is 66:23
In Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" -- Adam and Eve.
In Mark 2:27 the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" -- "The Sabbath was made for mankind"
In Rev 14:7 it is all mankind that is called to worship God who "created the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" - a quote from the Sabbath commandment
in Heb 4 "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people God" actually quotes the Sabbath Commandment and says it 'remains' just as it was in Psalms 95.
In Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus".
In 56:1-8 the Gentiles are singled out and specifically blessed for keeping the weekly Sabbath.
James 2 points specifically to the TEN Commandments and says that the common element that would make us "guilty of all" is based on "He who said" -- and as it turns out God said all ten of them not just nine.
In Eph 6:2 - the entire unit of TEN is being identified when the text says "Honor thy father and mother for this is the FIRST commandment with a promise" -- that requires a specific unit of Law -- and is only true of the TEN.
Ex 20:8-11 it is BOTH Israel AND the gentile that "stays within their gates" that is bound to keep the Sabbath.
In Acts 18:4 both Gentiles AND Jews are worshiping "every Sabbath" so also in Acts 17:1-4 so also in Acts 13.

How, when Paul says -
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8

Your response to the Bible is to question how it can be true. ??? Is that supposed to be an "answer"?

Hint - the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - written on the heart for those of us who choose to be New Covenant Christians.

You already knew that as you admit in your previous posts.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Bob.

A summary of our conversation to date Bob is as follows.

Romans 6
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the law but under grace.

Is not saying what it appears to say, rather it should be read with the added clause included below.

Romans 6
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the law (the condemnation of the law) but under grace.

So then how would you read the passage below?

Romans 7
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you
might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the
members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died
to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 6 is talking about the law to the saved as we see in Romans 6:1-4.

Romans 7 describes the problem of the lost person in 1-5 who is released from the condemnation of the Law when they become saved. And as Romans 7 goes on to point out - even when they are saved they choose to serve the LAW from the heart - from pure motives. But they need the Romans 8:4-9 work of the Holy Spirit to do it.

Meanwhile Romans 8:4-9 says the wicked choose instead to be at war with God and opposed to His Law.

So then to the saved saints Paul says

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

 

[bugkiller]

So then -- is the Sabbath BINDING on both Jews and also gentile believers? Let's answer the question "sola scriptura" and in so doing -- return to the actual subject of the thread.

In the OT Isaiah 66:23 states explicitly that the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" in Is 66:23
In Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" -- Adam and Eve.
In Mark 2:27 the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" -- "The Sabbath was made for mankind"
In Rev 14:7 it is all mankind that is called to worship God who "created the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" - a quote from the Sabbath commandment
in Heb 4 "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people God" actually quotes the Sabbath Commandment and says it 'remains' just as it was in Psalms 95.
In Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus".
In 56:1-8 the Gentiles are singled out and specifically blessed for keeping the weekly Sabbath.
James 2 points specifically to the TEN Commandments and says that the common element that would make us "guilty of all" is based on "He who said" -- and as it turns out God said all ten of them not just nine.
In Eph 6:2 - the entire unit of TEN is being identified when the text says "Honor thy father and mother for this is the FIRST commandment with a promise" -- that requires a specific unit of Law -- and is only true of the TEN.
Ex 20:8-11 it is BOTH Israel AND the gentile that "stays within their gates" that is bound to keep the Sabbath.
In Acts 18:4 both Gentiles AND Jews are worshiping "every Sabbath" so also in Acts 17:1-4 so also in Acts 13.




Your response to the Bible is to question how it can be true. ??? Is that supposed to be an "answer"?

Hint - the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - written on the heart for those of us who choose to be New Covenant Christians.

You already knew that as you admit in your previous posts.

Bob, No where have I ever admitted the Christians is under the law issued at Sinai.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Romans 6 is talking about the law to the saved as we see in Romans 6:1-4.

Romans 7 describes the problem of the lost person in 1-5 who is released from the condemnation of the Law when they become saved. And as Romans 7 goes on to point out - even when they are saved they choose to serve the LAW from the heart - from pure motives.

Sorry Bob it doesn't do as you say.

But they need the Romans 8:4-9 work of the Holy Spirit to do it.

Meanwhile Romans 8:4-9 says the wicked choose instead to be at war with God and opposed to His Law.

N it doesn't, Bob.

So then to the saved saints Paul says

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Yep according to you Jesus isn't enough to save a person we need the law also. That is hogwash.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom 10. According to this verse you don't choose to believe.

bugkiller

 

[Travis93]

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom 10. According to this verse you don't choose to believe.

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

If believing is Jesus abolishes the law, then faith abolishes the salvation of your soul.

Acts 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Ceaser, have offended at any thing at all.

Paul kept the law till the end, so according to your interpretation of Romans 10:4 he was an unbeliever.

 

[Bob S]

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Travis, please explain what 1Pet:9 has to do with the end of the law.

If believing is Jesus abolishes the law, then faith abolishes the salvation of your soul.

Is this your theory or have you gleaned it from somewhere in scripture? Please explain.

Acts 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Ceaser, have offended at any thing at all.

Here we find Paul defending himself. He is telling them he has not offended his fellow Jews by speaking against the Temple or the law or even Caesar.

Paul kept the law till the end,

Oh! where is your proof. Preaching in the Synagogue does not indicate he was keeping the law. His other actions concerning the feasts are not quite clear and we do not know if he kept all of them for all his life. Unless you know something I don't I would have to deny your statement.

so according to your interpretation of Romans 10:4 he was an unbeliever.

Only if you can prove your theory.

 

[disciple1]

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

If believing is Jesus abolishes the law, then faith abolishes the salvation of your soul.

Acts 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Ceaser, have offended at any thing at all.

Paul kept the law till the end, so according to your interpretation of Romans 10:4 he was an unbeliever.

Romans chapter 6
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
John chapter 8 verse 31,32
To the Jews who believed him Jesus said if you hold to my teaching you are really my disciples and you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free.
All three verses talk about the same thing.