The problem of evil

[amariselle]

The need to eat is objective, but that it's good to eat is a subjective point of view, that everyone needs to eat or gets hungry doesn't change that it's only your desire to eat. It's just your desire. That doesn't make morality objective. Humans having needs don't make morality objective, just really really commonly agreed on, but it's still just people with opinions and desires.

People "desire" to eat because we get hungry, which is our body "telling" us that we need to eat food to survive. We may choose WHAT we want to eat, and we don't all enjoy the same foods, but we don't choose IF we need to eat or not. The need to eat is objective reality.

Yes we do sacrifice ourselves to feel good about ourselves. Feeling like we are innocent, honorable, good is very beneficial to our mental stability and sense of self, we don't like feeling like we are bad.

If good and bad are merely subjective, as you've suggested, then who is to say that self-sacrifice is good at all? Maybe it's good to one person and bad to another. If good and bad are truly subjective, we should just be able to decide all such things for ourselves.

People do things in repayment of others, they ask forgiveness, they seek to make amends when the only real change is that we want to be forgiven, we want to feel good about ourselves again.

Forgiven for what? Good and bad are just subjective remember? So what if one person's subjective sense of goodness conflicts with another's? That's not something that needs forgiveness if good and bad are subjective.

You are proving my point. There IS objective goodness, there is an objective standard. People realize when they have fallen short and made mistakes, this is why we have a need for forgiveness.

People serve needy people because taking care of other people also benefits us and it GREATLY boosts of own sense of self goodness and helps us feel happier with ourselves.

It may and it may not. People do all kinds of things to help others, even when they get nothing in return. People even sacrifice their very lives and give up absolutely everything to help someone else.

God clarifies nothing, this is why religion does not work without great faith and it requires much commentary and much prayer and meditation for it to work and this is why the Christian only sections of this forum are completely full of confused people who do not know how to solve their problems or make their beliefs make sense and want advice from others.

Pretty inaccurate and close-minded assumptions. Also, I think it's rather shallow to get your entire perspective of Christians from a forum. There is no doubt that people can be quite combative and confrontational online. Often people say things online that they would never say in person. If you want an accurate perspective on Christians, meet with them, get to know them and enter into meaningful discussion with them.

This god is not the perfect face of goodness and for meeting our needs, this is why the bible foretells that very few of us will survive his return.

That is actually not at all what the Bible says regarding Jesus' return.

 

[amariselle]

Goodness isn't a thing, so we don't create it. We define what goodness is.

I was responding to another member. I do not think that goodness is something we create either.

Not in my opinion. There are non theists that take this position, but I'm not one of them.

I would say the vast majority of people don't have the exact same definition of "good". Most people have intersubjective morality, such that we agree about many things. Which, again, come from nature, nurture and logic.

There may be smaller issues that we see differently, but there are definitely core issues that many hold in common, like that it's wrong to murder someone for instance.

I don't know about you, but included in my nature is empathy, which means I don't have any desire to cause suffering to other people. Of course, with the number theists saying that without a god people should do whatever they want no matter what, I'm beginning to think that none of you have any empathy...

Actually, whenever I've heard Christians express this view, it is as the logical consequences of believing that there is no God and therefore no objective moral standard of good or evil. It is not what Christians believe, and it is not what we wish for anyone. We believe there IS a God, and we hope that others come to believe in Him too. It is a choice however.

 

[amariselle]

You have demonstrated that you are a Christian and I know a lot about Christians, you also elaborated on your beliefs for me a few times already. I do know enough about you to make very simple statements like I did.

You don't seem to know a lot about Christians at all. Also, you did not make a "very simple statement" about me. You clearly told me several times that I'm just confused about it all, including my belief in God. Now, if you understand anything at all about Christians, you know that telling them they're confused if they think God exists, is NOT a "very simple statement."

 

[Hikarifuru]

People "desire" to eat because we get hungry, which is our body "telling" us that we need to eat food to survive. We may choose WHAT we want to eat, and we don't all enjoy the same foods, but we don't choose IF we need to eat or not. The need to eat is objective reality.



If good and bad are merely subjective, as you've suggested, then who is to say that self-sacrifice is good at all? Maybe it's good to one person and bad to another. If good and bad are truly subjective, we should just be able to decide all such things for ourselves.



Forgiven for what? Good and bad are just subjective remember? So what if one person's subjective sense of goodness conflicts with another's? That's not something that needs forgiveness if good and bad are subjective.

You are proving my point. There IS objective goodness, there is an objective standard. People realize when they have fallen short and made mistakes, this is why we have a need for forgiveness.



It may and it may not. People do all kinds of things to help others, even when they get nothing in return. People even sacrifice their very lives and give up absolutely everything to help someone else.



Pretty inaccurate and close-minded assumptions. Also, I think it's rather shallow to get your entire perspective of Christians from a forum. There is no doubt that people can be quite combative and confrontational online. Often people say things online that they would never say in person. If you want an accurate perspective on Christians, meet with them, get to know them and enter into meaningful discussion with them.



That is actually not at all what the Bible says regarding Jesus' return.

The need to eat is objective, that eating is GOOD is subjective, it's an opinion based on a desire regardless of how unavoidable that desire is.

Self sacrifice IS subjectively considered good and we DO just decide for ourselves to do it.

Forgiven for what you WANT to be forgiven for, I never said the desire to be forgiven is actually a good thing, I said it's something we want because it does make us feel better.

When people give everything up to help others, there is a reason they are doing that, they feel like they need to, it's self serving too, it allows them to believe they are good and just, it can also ensure the survivability of their loved ones which is also a human need.

I spent most of my life as a Christian and around Christians, even preaching the gospel as a Christian. I know a lot about Christianity, I even attended bible college to become ordained as a minister and I still remember a lot of what I learned.

Yes the bible does say that very few find the path to life and that he will burn the rest of humanity in a fire. It is also historically accurate to say that an extremely small percentage of the humans that ever lived have been Christians.

 

[Hikarifuru]

You don't seem to know a lot about Christians at all. Also, you did not make a "very simple statement" about me. You clearly told me several times that I'm just confused about it all, including my belief in God. Now, if you understand anything at all about Christians, you know that telling them they're confused if they think God exists, is NOT a "very simple statement."

I said that you did not know where goodness came from and that you are confused about that topic... those are very simple statements about only one topic. That you are completely sure that you do know and that you greatly object to my statement does mean that I'm wrong about what I said. I have spent many years around Christians, in person, in discussion and as a christian myself and you also went into detail about your belief for me. I do understand enough about you to make the simple statements that you don't know something and that you're confused about it.

 

[amariselle]

I said that you did not know where goodness came from and that you are confused about that topic... those are very simple statements about only one topic. That you are completely sure that you do know and that you greatly object to my statement does mean that I'm wrong about what I said. I have spent many years around Christians, in person, in discussion and as a christian myself and you also went into detail about your belief for me. I do understand enough about you to make the simple statements that you don't know something and that you're confused about it.

You can say it is your OPINION that I am confused. Saying anything more than that it is you opinion is dishonest, because you don't know me and you don't know that majority of Christians in the world and throughout history.

What if Christians are right about God? What if they are not "confused" at all?

 

[amariselle]

The need to eat is objective, that eating is GOOD is subjective, it's an opinion based on a desire regardless of how unavoidable that desire is.

So, someone should be free to believe that something that is necessary to our physical survival, such as eating, is bad then.

Self sacrifice IS subjectively considered good and we DO just decide for ourselves to do it.

Of course we decide for ourselves to do it, it wouldn't be self sacrifice if we didn't.

Forgiven for what you WANT to be forgiven for, I never said the desire to be forgiven is actually a good thing, I said it's something we want because it does make us feel better.

You are missing the point. I asked why anyone has the desire to be forgiven in the first place. After all, good and bad (right and wrong) are merely subjective viewpoints according to you. So, there is no need for anyone to feel guilty that their subjective ideas as to what is good and what is bad differ from someone else's. If this is truly the case, everyone should be able to admit that we all decide for ourselves what is good and what is bad, and just move on. No need for guilt or forgiveness.

When people give everything up to help others, there is a reason they are doing that, they feel like they need to, it's self serving too, it allows them to believe they are good and just, it can also ensure the survivability of their loved ones which is also a human need.

It sounds like such people are striving for a sense of goodness that is objective, not subjective. Why give up everything? Why not just decide that helping others isn't good and that there is a different idea of good that wouldn't require self-sacrifice at all?

I spent most of my life as a Christian and around Christians, even preaching the gospel as a Christian. I know a lot about Christianity, I even attended bible college to become ordained as a minister and I still remember a lot of what I learned.

I can say the exact same (except for becoming ordained as a minister).

Yes the bible does say that very few find the path to life and that he will burn the rest of humanity in a fire. It is also historically accurate to say that an extremely small percentage of the humans that ever lived have been Christians.

Well, wouldn't it be more correct to state that no one has actually been a Christian at all? If God doesn't exist and everything the Bible says untrue, than what is a "Christian?" It's just another made up, subjective view, not anything real. This is where your beliefs in the subject lead in any case.

 

[Hikarifuru]

You can say it is your OPINION that I am confused. Saying anything more than that it is you opinion is dishonest, because you don't know me and you don't know that majority of Christians in the world and throughout history.

What if Christians are right about God? What if they are not "confused" at all?

Obviously it's my opinion but so what? I still have really good reasons to come to this conclusion. I am still going to make the statement that it's true. Needing faith that your mind cannot comprehend the truth and differing to the opinion of your god made of faith is a really good sign that you're confused and that you accept that.

If Christians did happen to be right, so what? I still have reasons for what I believe and no reason to believe otherwise.

 

[Hikarifuru]

So, someone should be free to believe that something that is necessary to our physical survival, such as eating, is bad then.

They are free to do that, that doesn't mean they have very good reasons to. But yes I do accept that I only have my needs and desires to form my moral system. This doesn't mean I accept that I'm wrong, it means I know and accept that I'm being subjective. There is no objective moral system, Christianity is the perfect subjective system, it's based on a willfull, personal, chosen FAITH. Faith in another beings opinion and desires (God's)

Of course we decide for ourselves to do it, it wouldn't be self sacrifice if we didn't.

I know, I'm just saying that I know we just choose our subjective morals, everyone does.

You are missing the point. I asked why anyone has the desire to be forgiven in the first place. After all, good and bad (right and wrong) are merely subjective viewpoints according to you. So, there is no need for anyone to feel guilty that their subjective ideas as to what is good and what is bad differ from someone else's. If this is truly the case, everyone should be able to admit that we all decide for ourselves what is good and what is bad, and just move on. No need for guilt or forgiveness.

Whether needing to be forgiven makes much logical sense to you (it does because you ask for it too) or whether you think a person with subjective beliefs SHOULD want forgiveness isn't relevant to whether or not they actually do. You claiming that humans shouldn't need forgiveness and be subjective at the same time isn't important. I suspect that the reason humans want to feel good about their selves is probably because guilt and humiliation benefit us in society. People who are willing to feel guilty about not doing certain things for other people tend to get along with other people better and in turn have a happier longer life too. It's beneficial to have an amount of doubt, humility and shame when it comes to social interaction. The stress that the brain goes through when it feels like it's bad and is full of doubt and shame can be quite great, it's beneficial to try to remain in a place where you think you're good. Forgiveness does this. Another reason people want forgiveness is because we have been conditioned to want it by countless systems over the centuries.

It sounds like such people are striving for a sense of goodness that is objective, not subjective. Why give up everything? Why not just decide that helping others isn't good and that there is a different idea of good that wouldn't require self-sacrifice at all?

Because there is a genetic need to survive, humans that take care of each other and give up things for each other survive longer in groups and their genes spread further and survive longer too. It's evolutionary biology.

I can say the exact same (except for becoming ordained as a minister).

Cool.

Well, wouldn't it be more correct to state that no one has actually been a Christian at all? If God doesn't exist and everything the Bible says untrue, than what is a "Christian?" It's just another made up, subjective view, not anything real. This is where your beliefs in the subject lead in any case.

Absolutely, no one is really saved from anything except the pains that a life without these spiritual hopes and comforts bring. It's that no one returns from the dead to inform you all that it wasn't true.

 

[amariselle]

Obviously it's my opinion but so what? I still have really good reasons to come to this conclusion.

As do I for my conclusions.

am still going to make the statement that it's true. Needing faith that your mind cannot comprehend the truth and differing to the opinion of your god made of faith is a really good sign that you're confused and that you accept that.

So, you don't take ANYTHING on "faith"?

f Christians did happen to be right, so what? I still have reasons for what I believe and no reason to believe otherwise.

Well, if Christians ARE right, that will not be a situation that leads to the answer of "so what?"

 

[Hikarifuru]

As do I for my conclusions.

Are you sure? Christianity is founded on faith in the unseen and unknown and unknowable nature of god. It's actually based on the idea that humans cannot understand. That's not needing reasons.

So, you don't take ANYTHING on "faith"?

I don't think I do, I try not to. I use confidence in what seems to be the case, but that's entirely different than faith. I don't believe anything by pure effort and willpower to believe. If I don't know I say I don't know.I do not knowingly use something like faith.

Well, if Christians ARE right, that will not be a situation that leads to the answer of "so what?"

It will for me, if Christianity was true and I knew it was true very little about me would change because I am already doing what I believe is right and I wouldn't live a Christian life or love or serve the Christian god even if he did exist. I've thought about that a lot already, even if Jesus is real and alive it makes no difference I still can't love him or be a Christian. I live my life the way I believe is right already.

Specifically, even if god was real, his opinions are still just his opinions and the Christian system is still subjective.

 

[amariselle]

They are free to do that, that doesn't mean they have very good reasons to. But yes I do accept that I only have my needs and desires to form my moral system. This doesn't mean I accept that I'm wrong, it means I know and accept that I'm being subjective. There is no objective moral system, Christianity is the perfect subjective system, it's based on a willfull, personal, chosen FAITH. Faith in another beings opinion and desires (God's)

And someone else can say they have the "need" to murder. People have said they feel that way. In your view then, such people would not actually be doing anything wrong or bad, because goodness is entirely subjective and self-defined.

I know, I'm just saying that I know we just choose our subjective morals, everyone does.

And if no one's choices are any more right or good than anyone else's, why do most of us believe that murder and abuse are wrong? Why not just let murderers go free to continue doing what they believe is right or good?

Whether needing to be forgiven makes much logical sense to you (it does because you ask for it too) or whether you think a person with subjective beliefs SHOULD want forgiveness isn't relevant to whether or not they actually do. You claiming that humans shouldn't need forgiveness and be subjective at the same time isn't important. I suspect that the reason humans want to feel good about their selves is probably because guilt and humiliation benefit us in society.

Why should their be any guilt though? If good and bad are entirely subjective, then there is no reason whatsoever for one person to feel guilt that their subjective standards of "goodness" differ from someone else's. As such, people should just be able to do whatever they want, there is no need for guilt or humiliation, no need to seek forgiveness.

Guilt and humiliation only "benefit society" if there are objective standards of good and bad that we all adhere to. If there are none, then anything goes and no one should feel bad about anything, no matter what they do.

People who are willing to feel guilty about not doing certain things for other people tend to get along with other people better and in turn have a happier longer life too. It's beneficial to have an amount of doubt, humility and shame when it comes to social interaction. The stress that the brain goes through when it feels like it's bad and is full of doubt and shame can be quite great, it's beneficial to try to remain in a place where you think you're good. Forgiveness does this. Another reason people want forgiveness is because we have been conditioned to want it by countless systems over the centuries.

So life is just about being happy and feeling good? Well, for some, killing someone else makes them "happy", so if you're going to use the "if it feels good, do it" argument, then even some murderers haven't done anything wrong.

Because there is a genetic need to survive, humans that take care of each other and give up things for each other survive longer in groups and their genes spread further and survive longer too. It's evolutionary biology.

Ah, so everything comes down to genetics, noting more. Even this viewpoint would conflict with what you've said about goodness being subjective. Such a concept would lead to everyone just doing whatever they feel like doing, as such, there would be chaos, and our species would fall apart and die out.

Absolutely, no one is really saved from anything except the pains that a life without these spiritual hopes and comforts bring. It's that no one returns from the dead to inform you all that it wasn't true.

Faith in God is about much more than comfort. In reality, for most Christians throughout history and up until today, their faith has brought them the opposite. True Christians have faced ridicule, persecution, torture, imprisonment and death. If their faith was just about comfort and feeling good they would abandon it as soon as things get difficult.

Also, Jesus Himself warned us that we would have trouble and face such persecution because of Him. If someone is truly sincere and knowledgeable about the Christian faith, they do not become a Christian for an easy life of comfort.

 

[amariselle]

Are you sure? Christianity is founded on faith in the unseen and unknown and unknowable nature of god. It's actually based on the idea that humans cannot understand. That's not needing reasons.

Science takes just as much faith, if not more faith, than believing in God. Science does not even come close to answering all of the questions that it claims to have answered and it has still put forward its theories as absolute, indisputable fact.

I don't think I do, I try not to. I use confidence in what seems to be the case, but that's entirely different than faith. I don't believe anything by pure effort and willpower to believe. If I don't know I say I don't know.I do not knowingly use something like faith.

I too freely admit there is much I don't know. Just because I believe in God, doesn't mean I'm saying I have all the answers in life. Far from it.

It will for me, if Christianity was true and I knew it was true very little about me would change because I am already doing what I believe is right and I wouldn't live a Christian life or love or serve the Christian god even if he did exist. I've thought about that a lot already, even if Jesus is real and alive it makes no difference I still can't love him or be a Christian. I live my life the way I believe is right already.

Your choice. In that view however, every single one of us can say the same. Even someone like Hitler or Stalin could say this. And if such a view is correct, then such people have done absolutely nothing wrong. They were living their lives the way they believed was right, so it must have been right, because what is right or wrong is of course, in your view, up to each person individually. And don't forget, Hitler and his Nazis thought they were doing humanity and our species a huge favour by creating a "master race."

Specifically, even if god was real, his opinions are still just his opinions and the Christian system is still subjective.

No, if God is real, He is the creator of everything and the righteous judge of everyone. If God is real, His standards are the true ones that exist far and above us as creation. If God is real, He is truth and He, as the One who created all of us and all we see, gets to say what is truly good, and what is not. It would not in that case be up to our subjective and differing opinions.

 

[Hikarifuru]

And someone else can say they have the "need" to murder. People have said they feel that way. In your view then, such people would not actually be doing anything wrong or bad, because goodness is entirely subjective and self-defined.

People can definitely say they have a need to murder, just like the Yahweh claimed that he had a need to murder LOTS of people. My view does not say that's ok, my view simply acknowledges that I only have my feelings to claim they are wrong.

And if no one's choices are any more right or good than anyone else's, why do most of us believe that murder and abuse are wrong? Why not just let murderers go free to continue doing what they believe is right or good?

I did not say no ones choices are right are wrong, I said right are wrong are based on nothing but our feelings and needs. Morality exists but it's subjective. Not having an objective system does mean I don't have a system at all. I just admit that I'm using my feelings and have no real authority. It's honesty.

Why should their be any guilt though? If good and bad are entirely subjective, then there is no reason whatsoever for one person to feel guilt that their subjective standards of "goodness" differ from someone else's. As such, people should just be able to do whatever they want, there is no need for guilt or humiliation, no need to seek forgiveness.

Guilt and humiliation only "benefit society" if there are objective standards of good and bad that we all adhere to. If there are none, then anything goes and no one should feel bad about anything, no matter what they do.

I don't need objective morals to feel bad, I want my take care of my loved ones, when I let them down I feel bad because I care about them, I don't need anyones help feeling this way, my love and my desires for them are enough. Another reason people feel guilty is because most of them are like you and they really think objective morality exists and that they have to feel guilty.

So life is just about being happy and feeling good? Well, for some, killing someone else makes them "happy", so if you're going to use the "if it feels good, do it" argument, then even some murderers haven't done anything wrong.

No it doesn't mean they aren't wrong, it means I'm using my feelings to declare them wrong, whereas you would not know how to declare them wrong without a godly objective system. My desire to be good and happy is enough for me.

Ah, so everything comes down to genetics, noting more. Even this viewpoint would conflict with what you've said about goodness being subjective. Such a concept would lead to everyone just doing whatever they feel like doing, as such, there would be chaos, and our species would fall apart and die out.

I didn't say genetics was the answer to EVERYTHING, I said it was an answer to the question you asked. No evolutionary biology DOES NOT lead everyone to just do what they want... obviously it hasn't. We still have families, friends, children, I'll take care of these until I return to dirt, I don't need a god to be good to people. I feel pain and remorse, no god is necessary. Only a sociopath would suddenly lack morals just because he learned that no authoritative master existed. Not having your own moral system or valuing morality itself is the definition of a sociopath, that's what people are if they could not have morals without god.

Faith in God is about much more than comfort. In reality, for most Christians throughout history and up until today, their faith has brought them the opposite. True Christians have faced ridicule, persecution, torture, imprisonment and death. If their faith was just about comfort and feeling good they would abandon it as soon as things get difficult.

Also, Jesus Himself warned us that we would have trouble and face such persecution because of Him. If someone is truly sincere and knowledgeable about the Christian faith, they do not become a Christian for an easy life of comfort.

Christianity does bring LOTS of comforts though, mainly a hope of eternal happiness and it is also a historical fact that a lot historic early church persecution was not persecution at all but rather prosecution and a lot of those early church members sought out their own martyrdom because Jesus set the example and he glorified destruction on the cross. Your faith isn't JUST about comfort, I know that, but you definitely are doing it because you think you should and because it will reward you and your loved ones.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Science takes just as much faith, if not more faith, than believing in God. Science does not even come close to answering all of the questions that it claims to have answered and it has still put forward its theories as absolute, indisputable fact.

Not it certainly does not require faith, you having questions that I can't answer doesn't mean I use faith. I don't even have an interest in answering a lot of those questions and I don't claim to have all the answers and neither does science. Science just makes an honest attempt to actually make sense with what we really know and it admits when it can't.

I too freely admit there is much I don't know. Just because I believe in God, doesn't mean I'm saying I have all the answers in life. Far from it.

Faith is the willful effort to believe something because you want to believe it, sometimes inspite of evidence that it's not true. I don't do that, but faith does and you use faith.

Your choice. In that view however, every single one of us can say the same. Even someone like Hitler or Stalin could say this. And if such a view is correct, then such people have done absolutely nothing wrong. They were living their lives the way they believed was right, so it must have been right, because what is right or wrong is of course, in your view, up to each person individually. And don't forget, Hitler and his Nazis thought they were doing humanity and our species a huge favour by creating a "master race."

No every single one of you cannot say the same, Christians regularly say that they do not understand, that they cannot trust their own understanding, that they cannot just do what they feel is right but that they have to submit to god only. That's not what I do. I stand by what I really believe is right, no matter what or who disagrees and my beliefs are enough for me.
My way does not make Hitler or Stalin right, my way just admits that my feelings and needs are all I have to base my morals own, I am just honest enough to admit that. Hitler was also very religious and regularly talked about god too, so he's not with me, he closer to your group. Him and Stalin actually acted a lot more like the bible god, killing anyone they didn't like or who did not support them.

You keep implying that morality doesn't exist without objectivity... and that's just not true.

No, if God is real, He is the creator of everything and the righteous judge of everyone. If God is real, His standards are the true ones that exist far and above us as creation. If God is real, He is truth and He as the One who created all of us and all we see, gets to say what is truly good, and what is not. It would not be up to our subjective and differing opinions.

Whether he is a god or whether he created anything has no bearing on whether what he thinks or does is right or if what he claims is true. God can't commit crimes either, they would still be crimes and he would just become an evil god.

 

[bhsmte]

Science takes just as much faith, if not more faith, than believing in God. Science does not even come close to answering all of the questions that it claims to have answered and it has still put forward its theories as absolute, indisputable fact.



I too freely admit there is much I don't know. Just because I believe in God, doesn't mean I'm saying I have all the answers in life. Far from it.



Your choice. In that view however, every single one of us can say the same. Even someone like Hitler or Stalin could say this. And if such a view is correct, then such people have done absolutely nothing wrong. They were living their lives the way they believed was right, so it must have been right, because what is right or wrong is of course, in your view, up to each person individually. And don't forget, Hitler and his Nazis thought they were doing humanity and our species a huge favour by creating a "master race."



No, if God is real, He is the creator of everything and the righteous judge of everyone. If God is real, His standards are the true ones that exist far and above us as creation. If God is real, He is truth and He, as the One who created all of us and all we see, gets to say what is truly good, and what is not. It would not in that case be up to our subjective and differing opinions.

Science takes faith?

Do you have faith that the when you flip the light switch in your house, the lights will go on, or do you have trust they will go on based on a proven model?

Do you have faith that the computer you are typing on will work based on faith, or do you trust it will work based on a proven model?

Do you have faith the diagnostic tests you get from a doctor will yield accurate results based on faith, or because there is trust they are accurate based on a proven model?

 

[amariselle]

People can definitely say they have a need to murder, just like the Yahweh claimed that he had a need to murder LOTS of people. My view does not say that's ok, my view simply acknowledges that I only have my feelings to claim they are wrong.

I did not say no ones choices are right are wrong, I said right are wrong are based on nothing but our feelings and needs. Morality exists but it's subjective. Not having an objective system does mean I don't have a system at all. I just admit that I'm using my feelings and have no real authority. It's honesty.

I don't need objective morals to feel bad, I want my take care of my loved ones, when I let them down I feel bad because I care about them, I don't need anyones help feeling this way, my love and my desires for them are enough. Another reason people feel guilty is because most of them are like you and they really think objective morality exists and that they have to feel guilty.

No it doesn't mean they aren't wrong, it means I'm using my feelings to declare them wrong, whereas you would not know how to declare them wrong without a godly objective system. My desire to be good and happy is enough for me.

Based on everything you are saying, we should not have a court system or trials to convict people and sentence them. When we do this, we are therefore imposing our own personal morality on others. If it is true that morality, good and evil are merely subjective, then we cannot push anything about our own sense of these things on someone else. To do so is to contradict yourself, because you are therefore saying that there IS a definite right and a definite wrong, and that it should be imposed on others. This is what laws and judicial systems do. They could not exist if what you are saying is true, because everyone would instead be allowed to do whatever is right for them personally.

I didn't say genetics was the answer to EVERYTHING, I said it was an answer to the question you asked. No evolutionary biology DOES NOT lead everyone to just do what they want... obviously it hasn't. We still have families, friends, children, I'll take care of these until I return to dirt, I don't need a god to be good to people. I feel pain and remorse, no god is necessary. Only a sociopath would suddenly lack morals just because he learned that no authoritative master existed. Not having your own moral system or valuing morality itself is the definition of a sociopath, that's what people are if they could not have morals without god.

How do you know for certain your sense of pain and remorse are not the result of a God given conscience? Science can neither prove nor disprove God. So you have no way of saying for certain that He does not exist, or that He didn't create us in His image.

Also, under your subjective system, there is no such thing as a sociopath, only someone who has a different view of good and bad than you do. If there are no objective standards of right and wrong, then you cannot label someone who has different ideas from your own as morally corrupt or mentally disturbed. Their views, after all, would be just as valid and correct as your own, because you believe there is no objective standard to judge them by. The fact that you admit that certain people can be sociopaths is a demonstration of the dishonesty and problems inherent in your subjective view of morality. You are admitting there IS actually an objective standard by which to determine right and wrong/good and bad.

Christianity does bring LOTS of comforts though, mainly a hope of eternal happiness and it is also a historical fact that a lot historic early church persecution was not persecution at all but rather prosecution and a lot of those early church members sought out their own martyrdom because Jesus set the example and he glorified destruction on the cross.

Actually, this is far from historical fact. The majority of Christians have sacrificed their life rather than renounce Jesus, they have not sought out martyrdom in and of itself. If you look at the persecution Christians are facing in certain countries today, you will clearly see this.

Your faith isn't JUST about comfort, I know that, but you definitely are doing it because you think you should and because it will reward you and your loved ones.

No I am "doing it" because I know God is real and the Bible is His word. My faith isn't about personal comfort at all. Do I have peace and assurance in Jesus? Sure, but true Christian faith and following Jesus will cost us something. We must lay down our lives and follow Him, not our own wants and desires. Also, I live with the reality that I may very well die one day because of my faith.

 

[amariselle]

Science takes faith?

Absolutely, because science does not have all of the answers and explanations it claims to have. Instead, science makes many inferences and claims about things that are beyond its scope of study, therefore, it takes faith to accept such inferences as "fact."

Do you have faith that the when you flip the light switch in your house, the lights will go on, or do you have trust they will go on based on a proven model?

Do you have faith that the computer you are typing on will work based on faith, or do you trust it will work based on a proven model?

Do you have faith the diagnostic tests you get from a doctor will yield accurate results based on faith, or because there is trust they are accurate based on a proven model?

All of the examples you just gave have potential problems that can and do occur. Light switches fail, computers wear out and break down and diagnostic tests can be inconclusive or even incorrect. So no, I do not put the kind of faith you are referring to in such manmade things. I only place that kind of faith in my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Based on everything you are saying, we should not have a court system or trials to convict people and sentence them. When we do this, we are therefore imposing our own personal morality on others. If it is true that morality, good and evil are merely subjective, then we cannot push anything about our own sense of these things on someone else. To do so is to contradict yourself, because you are therefore saying that there IS a definite right and a definite wrong, and that it should be imposed on others. This is what laws and judicial systems do. They could not exist if what you are saying is true, because everyone would instead be allowed to do whatever is right for them personally.

You dont seem to understand that this the kind of court system we have already, using subjective morals is what everyone already does. Your system is subjective too. Yes we can and should have courts to take care of us, we simply trust that our need to protect ourselves and survive is enough reason to force our desire to live onto other people. We don't want to die and that has always been enough, we never needed objectivity.

How do you know for certain your sense of pain and remorse are not the result of a God given conscience? Science can neither prove nor disprove God. So you have no way of saying for certain that He does not exist, or that He didn't create us in His image.

Also, under your subjective system, there is no such thing as a sociopath, only someone who has a different view of good and bad than you do. If there are no objective standards of right and wrong, then you cannot label someone who has different ideas from your own as morally corrupt or mentally disturbed. Their views, after all, would be just as valid and correct as your own, because you believe there is no objective standard to judge them by. The fact that you admit that certain people can be sociopaths is a demonstration of the dishonesty and problems inherent in your subjective view of morality. You are admitting there IS actually an objective standard by which to determine right and wrong/good and bad.

There is no reason to believe in god, the bible paints a completely different god than the feelings that I have and I do not care what gods would think anyway. I don't care whether god exists or not, these are my feelings and I care about them.

A sociopath is a person who doesn't have a moral system.... not a person who's moral system is wrong or scary or invalid. Christians who could not have morals without god, would be sociopaths.

Actually, this if far from historical fact. The majority of Christians have sacrificed their life rather than renounce Jesus, they have not sought out martyrdom in and of itself. If you look at the persecution Christians are facing in certain countries today, you will clearly see this.

Actually Christian biblical historians say you're wrong... Yes Christians DID go to government officials home and try to provoke their own deaths because they wanted to die like Jesus. Christians ARE persecuted but it's also a persecution Christians can actually want, because it fullfills their need to be persecuted by the evil world for god. A lot of Christians insist that all non-believers persecute them.

No I am "doing it" because I know God is real and the Bible is His word. My faith isn't about personal comfort at all. Do I have peace and assurance in Jesus? Sure, but true Christian faith and following Jesus will cost us something. We must lay down our lives and follow Him, not our own wants and desires. Also, I live with the reality that I may very well die one day because of my faith.

You will not likely die for your faith, if you are an American our government actually protects you from that and most non-beleivers don't want to hurt you. Christianity is all about going to heaven, yes you do endure struggles and conflicts and obstacles but Paul plainly said he'd do it all again and it was worth it because his reward in heaven. You get to go to heaven and escape hell and you get the comfort of knowing god loves and protects your family too.

 

[bhsmte]

Absolutely, because science does not have all of the answers and explanations it claims to have. Instead, science makes many inferences and claims about things that are beyond its scope of study, therefore, it takes faith to accept such inferences as "fact."



All of the examples you just gave have potential problems that can and do occur. Light switches fail, computers wear out and break down and diagnostic tests can be inconclusive or even incorrect. So no, I do not put the kind of faith you are referring to in such manmade things. I only place that kind of faith in my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

And all the potential problems that can occur with the above, are identified and corrected by scientific means.