Can you be good without God?

[Hikarifuru]

LOL, humans are the rapists. Take ownership and repent.
God would be just in destroying all humanity for law breaking. He was merciful in sparing any.

Yet, you laughingly blame God for your wickedness.

I think you should go home and get some rest, that would benefit you more than displaying your god as a psychopath that justifies his actions by who he is.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Not even close to Atheists. Add all other ideologies and combine them...and they still don't come close to equaling the body count from Atheists of the 20th century.

The stupid thing about this is the you're taking every non-believing criminal and saying atheism caused their crimes. Are you drunk? Atheism never caused any crime. Your bible has commands to go and kill people, atheism has no creeds commands verdicts or ideas. You have your god followers.... and there's everyone else. There is no common bond between atheists. Atheists aren't a group.... we're the ones who didn't join a group silly.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Not even close to Atheists. Add all other ideologies and combine them...and they still don't come close to equaling the body count from Atheists of the 20th century.

Don't you think that could be because technologies of warfare, increases of population, and other modern differences make a huge difference in body counts? How is that a fair comparison?

The point you were responding to wasn't even a comparison of numbers. It was simply saying the truth -- that Christians too have a bloody history. Own up to it.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Gods Morality is based on His objectively existing moral character. It exists outside of the human mind therefore it exists objectively.

If a god's morality is objective, then "good" and "evil" have nothing at all to do with that god, because it's based on something external to that god. That's what objective means:

"the state or quality of being true even outside of a subject's individual biases, interpretations, feelings, and imaginings."

Notice the "outside of a subject's..." part. That goes for you and me, and even a god, who doesn't get some sort of special pleading pass, despite whatever pathetic wordplay most theists use.

Subjective morality is just based on human opinion and just exists in your mind, ie subjectively.

Yes, and as I said in another post which was conveniently ignored:

"Subjective things exist. Even one better, societies tend to have intersubjective morality, in that the majority of individuals have similar morals. As in, most people believe stealing and murder to be wrong, ceteris paribis. It has never been the case in any society that everyone's morality is completely different from everyone else's. Intersubjectivity makes morality within a society possible. And within any given intersubjective system,objective statements can be made, which makes situational ethics possible.

So the whole Christian gotcha of objective morality is a non starter, and frankly pretty silly."

If morality is not objective then it doesn't actually exist, it is just your subjective feelings and opinion in your head like something imaginary and in fact it is imaginary if there is no God.

Opinions exist. They're far from imaginary. Let me prove it to you:

My opinion is that you're not spending enough time actually thinking about all this. Because whether a god exists or not, people have actual real opinions about things...

 

[Hikarifuru]

Eudaimonist,

I think he was originally responding to my claim that doctrines of this god are far too destructive to be the source of our morality. This being literally kills anything that doesn't serve it. It is the far opposite of the morality he claims we got from it.

 

[MennoSota]

Don't you think that could be because technologies of warfare, increases of population, and other modern differences make a huge difference in body counts? How is that a fair comparison?

The point you were responding to wasn't even a comparison of numbers. It was simply saying the truth -- that Christians too have a bloody history. Own up to it.


eudaimonia,

Mark

All humanity is, by nature, depraved. Much has been done in the name of Yeshua that is shameful and biblically unjustified. No one can deny their sin.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

All humanity is, by nature, depraved.

And who is responsible for having created that nature, according to you?

 

[MennoSota]

If a god's morality is objective, then "good" and "evil" have nothing at all to do with that god, because it's based on something external to that god. That's what objective means:

"the state or quality of being true even outside of a subject's individual biases, interpretations, feelings, and imaginings."

Notice the "outside of a subject's..." part. That goes for you and me, and even a god, who doesn't get some sort of special pleading pass, despite whatever pathetic wordplay most theists use.



Yes, and as I said in another post which was conveniently ignored:

"Subjective things exist. Even one better, societies tend to have intersubjective morality, in that the majority of individuals have similar morals. As in, most people believe stealing and murder to be wrong, ceteris paribis. It has never been the case in any society that everyone's morality is completely different from everyone else's. Intersubjectivity makes morality within a society possible. And within any given intersubjective system,objective statements can be made, which makes situational ethics possible.

So the whole Christian gotcha of objective morality is a non starter, and frankly pretty silly."



Opinions exist. They're far from imaginary. Let me prove it to you:

My opinion is that you're not spending enough time actually thinking about all this. Because whether a god exists or not, people have actual real opinions about things...

God's moral law is the standard of measurement, which God, the Judge, uses to declare right or wrong.
God decides and all His creation is subject to them, whether anyone likes it or not.

My judgment, or your judgment, regarding God's moral law, is irrelevant. God's judgment is just as the one who created us and the law.

God is not subject to a democracy or checks and balances of a federal system. God is our Creator and He is our dictator, whether we like it or not. Fight against the bit all you want, but you are still a subject under the decree of a Sovereign God and King.

 

[MennoSota]

And who is responsible for having created that nature, according to you?

God created humans to obey Him. Humans failed. Humanity is responsible for lawbreaking and being depraved.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

God's moral law is the standard of measurement, which God, the Judge, uses to declare right or wrong.
God decides and all His creation is subject to them, whether anyone likes it or not.

My judgment, or your judgment, regarding God's moral law, is irrelevant. God's judgment is just as the one who created us and the law.

What makes his judgment "just"? That he says so?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

God created humans to obey Him. Humans failed. Humanity is responsible for lawbreaking and being depraved.

So he bears ultimate responsibility for our nature, having created us?

 

[MennoSota]

What makes his judgment "just"? That he says so?

Yes.

The Sovereign King declares and all Creation is subject under His just decree.

Your whining is irrelevant.

 

[MennoSota]

So he bears ultimate responsibility for our nature, having created us?

You cannot excuse your actions onto your parents anymore than you can excuse your depravity onto God.
Own your depravity as being because of your lawbreaking.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes.

The Sovereign King declares and all Creation is subject under His just decree.

Your whining is irrelevant.

So whatever he says automatically becomes "moral"?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You cannot excuse your actions onto your parents anymore than you can excuse your depravity onto God.
Own your depravity as being because of your lawbreaking.

But I didn't create my own nature, which you claim is depraved. So how am I responsible for my "depraved" nature?

 

[Hikarifuru]

Yes.

The Sovereign King declares and all Creation is subject under His just decree.

Your whining is irrelevant.

That's psychopathy....

 

[Freodin]

This kind of theology is nothing but the ultimate apology for the ultimate dictatorship. Full sovereignity, but no responsibility. Assertion of "goodness" and "justice" without any content.

This doesn't have to do with "morals" or "being good" any more. It is just empty rhetoric. Sales-talk to convince people to buy your medicine for a non-existent illness.

And I don't even say that this cannot be correct - perhaps it is. But even if it is correct, it is meaningless.

 

[Hikarifuru]

All humanity is, by nature, depraved. Much has been done in the name of Yeshua that is shameful and biblically unjustified. No one can deny their sin.

Except most humans have never burned anyone with fire, never sent a snake to kill a person, never made people eat their kids, never killed babies, never sent plagues, never forced miscarriages, never sent a rapist to rape someone.

Most humans are morally superior to the god.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Yes.

The Sovereign King declares and all Creation is subject under His just decree.

Your whining is irrelevant.

Why do you enjoy being a slave to a totalitarian regime?

Your view of theology is exactly what Christopher Hitchens was talking about when he called god the "Dear Leader" of a celestial North Korea

 

[Freodin]

Why do you enjoy being a slave to a totalitarian regime?

Your view of theology is exactly what Christopher Hitchens was talking about when he called god the "Dear Leader" of a celestial North Korea

But you know, the "Dear Leader" is just a depraved human being instead of a almost divine being, while his "Sovereign King" is the one and only God instead of a philosophical extrapolation of iron age mythology.