Can you be good without God?

[Hikarifuru]

I don't think they're heinous at all. There's an entire theology here that you're ignoring.

Right.... because if you have really good reasons, it's ok to

"make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters" Jer 19:9

You're saying that the theology justifies this, that's psychopathy.

 

[Achilles6129]

You're misunderstanding what's going on. I've explained enough at this point, so we'll just have to disagree.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Of course they are not God's moral law. They are laws under the Mosaic Covenant, which Israel was to use as a nation.

So stop saying your god is a source of morality if he gave laws that were not moral.

 

[Hikarifuru]

You're misunderstanding what's going on. I've explained enough at this point, so we'll just have to disagree.

You haven't explained anything.... you said god didn't want it to happen, he just allowed it then I posted scripture that specifically said he caused it. We do not have to just disagree, you're wrong and your justifying things far worse than most humans will ever want to do, while saying that the god who causes rape is the reason humans dont want to rape. You couldn't be any more backward.

 

[MennoSota]

So stop saying your god is a source of morality if he gave laws that were not moral.

God is good. His laws are His laws and thus they are good.

It is you and I who are law breakers. We are in need of God's pardon.

Since you have zero say in the laws God creates and since you are but a gnat in His presence, it is laughable to hear you make the claims of a fool.

 

[MennoSota]

You haven't explained anything.... you said god didn't want it to happen, he just allowed it then I posted scripture that specifically said he caused it. We do not have to just disagree, you're wrong and your justifying things far worse than most humans will ever want to do, while saying that the god who causes rape is the reason humans dont want to rape. You couldn't be any more backward.

Laughable, that you claim, God causes rape, when it is human depravity that is the cause. Own your wickedness and repent. But, the claims you are making are head shakingly funny in there foolishness.

 

[MennoSota]

That's not really true.

However, if you want to argue body count, Christianity has a very bloody history as well.

Not even close to Atheists. Add all other ideologies and combine them...and they still don't come close to equaling the body count from Atheists of the 20th century.

 

[MennoSota]

Christianity? Who needs to be that specific?

Just look at all those theist murderers who terrorize the world! Did you know that all of the major terror acts of the 21st century were contrived, organized and executed by theists?

Except for all those Atheist's in North Korea, China, Burma, Tibet, Nepal, Venezuela, Columbia, etc.

 

[MennoSota]

Your bible has stories of your god killing every human on the planet short of one family and says he will burn every human that has ever lived in a stove if they don't believe in him.

You completely disregarded my point, your god sends rapists to rape women, forces women to miscarry, makes women have their babies torn out of their bellies, makes parents eat their kids.... and you're saying this god is the source of morality? Are you insane?

LOL, humans are the rapists. Take ownership and repent.
God would be just in destroying all humanity for law breaking. He was merciful in sparing any.

Yet, you laughingly blame God for your wickedness.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Not even close to Atheists. Add all other ideologies and combine them...and they still don't come close to equaling the body count from Atheists of the 20th century.

The thing is however, atheism has not caused any of those deaths. You can not get from "I don't believe a god exists" to "therefore I should murder people", it doesn't logically follow.

Stalin killed millions because of totalitarianism, they threatened (or were perceived to threaten) his grasp on power.

However, Christianity has directly caused millions of deaths. May it be through the inquisition, crusades, or holocaust.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Except for all those Atheist's in North Korea, China, Burma, Tibet, Nepal, Venezuela, Columbia, etc.

Venezuela and Colombia are overwhelmingly Christian.

Burma (Myanmar) and Tibet is overwhelmingly Buddhist (on that note I find it weird you listed both China and Tibet, as Tibet is a part of China)

Nepal is overwhelmingly Hindu

China as a whole, and North Korea are the only countries you listed which are actually majority non-religious.

Either way, what's your point?

 

[Ed1wolf]

No, because the consequences of his acts were negative.

Why are they negative? In his opinion he believed he was trying to help his group, ie communists to survive which is a positive. That is what evolution tells us, doing anything to help your group survive right?

de: On the other hand, when your god (according to the myth) decided to carry out a global genocide and murder every man, woman and child, along with every animal, insect and presumably plant except what could fit on a small boat, then he was doing what was moral for him, correct?

The Noah's ark story absolutely pales in comparison to anything any other totalitarian dictator has done in human history. And yet, you worship this being.

First since you don't have an objective moral standard to judge Him then you cannot make any objective (real) moral judgment of Him. Second, if you did have an objective moral standard to judge Him then He did nothing wrong. He did not commit genocide or murder. Genocide is the slaughter of a group of people just because of WHO they are. God's judgement on the preflood peoples was because of the evil they had done and as judge of the universe He has the authority to mete out capital punishment especially since that is the penalty for sin according to the universal law of justice.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Why are they negative? In his opinion he believed he was trying to help his group, ie communists to survive which is a positive. That is what evolution tells us, doing anything to help your group survive right?

No, that's not what evolution tells us. If you understood the science behind evolution, you'd know that.

First since you don't have an objective moral standard to judge Him then you cannot make any objective (real) moral judgment of Him.

Sure, however luckily I do have an objective standard.

Second, if you did have an objective moral standard to judge Him then He did nothing wrong. He did not commit genocide or murder. Genocide is the slaughter of a group of people just because of WHO they are. God's judgement on the preflood peoples was because of the evil they had done and as judge of the universe He has the authority to mete out capital punishment especially since that is the penalty for sin according to the universal law of justice.

Oh, I see, God committed the "good" kind of genocide. My bad.

And what was the objective standard that god used to make his judgments?

 

[Ed1wolf]

Morality does not need to be objective to exist without your god, even if your god did exist that would not make morality objective, you would merely value his person and his opinion... that is not objective.

Gods Morality is based on His objectively existing moral character. It exists outside of the human mind therefore it exists objectively. Subjective morality is just based on human opinion and just exists in your mind, ie subjectively. If morality is not objective then it doesn't actually exist, it is just your subjective feelings and opinion in your head like something imaginary and in fact it is imaginary if there is no God.

dw: Arguing that morality is not objective has nothing to do with where morals come from.

Yes, it does, see above.

dw; Arguing that I can't prove that my morality is the one true moral system does not establish or provide that morality comes from god. You are only demonstrating that you think the moral system based on god is best and that you don't know how to have morality without the god... and that makes you a sociopath, not me.

No, you as an atheist and all humans have a built in moral conscience because you are created in the image of God. But over time it becomes distorted due to our sinful nature which we inherited after the Fall of humanity. There are few sociopaths, people born without a conscience or they have ignored their conscience to the point where it is destroyed.

dw: You saying that you can't imagine morality existing without god is your problem, I know I have a moral system, I don't need to prove that it's best and it will never depend on your god.

You have moral feelings based on your conscience but if there is no God then you don't have an objective moral standard to make objective or real moral judgements. It is just based on the feelings or chemicals in your brain just like Stalin, so how do know that your morality is better than his?

 

[Hikarifuru]

God is good. His laws are His laws and thus they are good.

It is you and I who are law breakers. We are in need of God's pardon.

Since you have zero say in the laws God creates and since you are but a gnat in His presence, it is laughable to hear you make the claims of a fool.

you really have this backward, you're not responding or discussing anymore, you're just being a very angry little man. haha

 

[Dave Ellis]

Gods Morality is based on His objectively existing moral character. It exists outside of the human mind therefore it exists objectively. Subjective morality is just based on human opinion and just exists in your mind, ie subjectively. If morality is not objective then it doesn't actually exist, it is just your subjective feelings and opinion in your head like something imaginary and in fact it is imaginary if there is no God.

"Subjective" is not limited to just human minds. Subjective would apply to any conscious entity.

Your god is no different. Any opinions or judgments he holds would also be subjective.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Gods Morality is based on His objectively existing moral character. It exists outside of the human mind therefore it exists objectively. Subjective morality is just based on human opinion and just exists in your mind, ie subjectively. If morality is not objective then it doesn't actually exist, it is just your subjective feelings and opinion in your head like something imaginary and in fact it is imaginary if there is no God.

It is your opinion and your gods opinion that your system is good, so it's subjective. As far as your gods character, he lives to rape, murder and burn people. I on the other hand will never do any of those things. I could teach your god a few things about being good.

 

[Hikarifuru]

LOL, humans are the rapists. Take ownership and repent.
God would be just in destroying all humanity for law breaking. He was merciful in sparing any.

Yet, you laughingly blame God for your wickedness.

Take ownership of your bible it specifically says he causes rape, murder, cannibalism, infanticide, miscarriages. So no he not does create my goodness.

 

[Hikarifuru]

Laughable, that you claim, God causes rape, when it is human depravity that is the cause. Own your wickedness and repent. But, the claims you are making are head shakingly funny in there foolishness.

The interesting thing is that I will never do anything close to what your god does all through his book... I am his moral superior.

So sad that you won't have any part of what your bible says.

 

[Hikarifuru]

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