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The Early Church is the Catholic Church

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Would you guys please define these words/phrases? This is really confusuing.

Which of these two definitions is your understanding?

What is easy believism?

"Easy believism" is a derogatory label used by some people to describe one or two different "ways" of becoming a Christian. First is the notion that nothing more is necessary for salvation than an intellectual acknowledgment of God's work on the cross, accompanied by a verbal appeal to be saved. This "formula for salvation" is often coupled with the accusation that it is then okay to go out and live a sinful life without any good works since a person has said "The Sinner's Prayer" and is now saved no matter what.

Second, the other sense in which the term is used is when describing the idea of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, where no works are necessary to obtain salvation.
I would say the first definition is more accurate.

Here is an analogy to explain how faith and deeds work together. Let's say Jesus is handing out tickets for a flight to heaven. He is the only one you can get a ticket from (the way, the truth, the life) and He says that in order for you to get one you must first believe in Him and repent of your sins and accept him as your savior. Once he gives you this ticket to heaven, nobody can take it away from you. However, depending on what you do with that salvation determines where you sit. If you are a loyal and faithful servant, you sit in first class. If you just simply try to do the bare minimum or have a death bed conversion, you sit in coach. Now it is important to note that just because nobody can take your ticket away from you, you are still able to freely throw your ticket away by rejecting Jesus after you have been saved. Your name is written in the Book of Life in pencil and can be easily erased should you choose to reject Him. Paul describes salvation as a "race that you must persevere to the end".

James talks a lot about faith and deeds. He describes how our works will be purged by fire. This is not talking about purgatory. It is describing works. Works that are done for the sole purpose of fulfilling God's will are made of gold and silver. When put into the fire they are purified. Those works that are done for selfish gain (like charity done to earn your salvation) are made of wood and straw that will burn away and count for nothing because they are selfish in nature.

Let's say I was poor and I saw a homeless woman begging for food. I could see that she was in a much worse position than I was so I gave her what little I had because the Spirit was calling me to do so. Those acts of charity will be rewarded. However, let's say I was a millionaire who gave thousands of dollars to a charity for the sole purpose of a tax write off. Although it was an act of charity that furthered God's will, it is selfish in nature and God will not even recognize it on your judgement.

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rakovsky

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I like the EO Anglican Methodist soteriology the best. At least I find it the most reasonable, Biblical and original.

The RCs, Lutherans,
I agree. I understand Calvin's thought process and I don't agree. The term that is commonly used for this "once saved always saved" belief is called "easy believeism ".

Easy believism is a somewhat derogatory term used by opponents of the view that one needs only to believe in Jesus in order to be saved. From this they conclude that those who hold to sola fide (“faith alone”) teach that no corresponding need exists for a committed life of Christian discipleship as proof of salvation; however, that is not what sola fide means. True faith in Christ will always lead to a changed life. Another common usage of the term easy believism is in regards to those who believe they’re saved because they prayed a prayer—with no real conviction of sin and no real faith in Christ. Praying a prayer is easy—thus the term easy believism—but there is more to salvation than mouthing words.

Much of the debate over easy believism is unnecessary and is based on a misunderstanding of the Scriptures. The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The essence of this doctrine is found in Ephesians 2:8–9: “For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.” So we see that faith, given as a gift by God, is what saves us. But the next verse tells of the results of that salvation: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Rather than being saved by some easy act of our own wills, we are saved by the hand of God Almighty, by His will and for His use. We are His servants, and from the moment of salvation by faith, we embark on a journey of pre-ordained good works that are the evidence of that salvation. If there is no evidence of growth and good works, we have reason to doubt that salvation ever truly took place. “Faith without works is dead” (James 2:20), and a dead faith is not a saving faith.

“Faith alone” does not mean that some believers follow Christ in a life of discipleship, while others do not. The concept of the “carnal Christian,” as a separate category of non-spiritual believer, is completely unscriptural. The idea of the carnal Christian says that a person may receive Christ as Savior during a religious experience but never manifest evidence of a changed life. This is a false and dangerous teaching in that it excuses various ungodly lifestyles: a man may be an unrepentant adulterer, liar, or thief, but he’s “saved” because he prayed a prayer as a child; he’s just a “carnal Christian.” The Bible nowhere supports the idea that a true Christian can remain carnal for an entire lifetime. Rather, God’s Word presents only two categories of people: Christians and non-Christians, believers and unbelievers, those who have bowed to the Lordship of Christ and those who have not (see John 3:36; Romans 6:17–18; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:18–24; Ephesians 2:1–5; 1 John 1:5–7; 2:3–4).

While the security of salvation is a biblical fact based upon the finished work of salvation by Christ, it is certainly true that some of those who seemed to have “made a decision” or “accepted Christ” may not genuinely be saved. As noted before, true salvation is not so much our accepting Christ as it is His accepting us. We are saved by the power of God for the purpose of God, and that purpose includes the works that give evidence of our conversion. Those who continue to walk according to the flesh are not believers (Romans 8:5–8). This is why Paul exhorts us to “examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith” (2 Corinthians 13:5). The “carnal” Christian who examines himself will soon see that he/she is not in the faith.

James 2:19 says, “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!” The type of “belief” demons have can be compared to the intellectual assent made by those who “believe” in Jesus in the fact that He exists or that He was a good person. Many unbelievers say, “I believe in God” or “I believe in Jesus”; others say, “I prayed a prayer, and the preacher said I was saved.” But such prayers and such belief do not necessarily signal a change of heart. The problem is a misunderstanding of the word believe. With true salvation comes genuine repentance and real life change. Second Corinthians 5:17 says that those who are in Christ are a “new creation.” Is it possible that the new person Christ creates is one who continues to walk in the carnality of the flesh? No.

Salvation is certainly free, but, at the same time, it costs us everything. We are to die to ourselves as we change into the likeness of Christ. Where easy believism fails is its lack of recognition that a person with faith in Jesus will lead a progressively changed life. Salvation is a free gift from God to those who believe, but discipleship and obedience are the response that will no doubt occur when one truly comes to Christ in faith.

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I agree with your criticism of Calvinism above.

Regarding Luther's theories this is kind of hard to say.

The truth is, the Christians in 30 to 400 ad made up various theories of fall, predestination, salvation. Isaiah 53 and substitution atonement is one theory. Ransom theory is different. So is theosis. Another theory is Paul's grace v law theory. Paul made a big foundation for Augustine theories. The truth is, Jason, there are lots of theories and they may be compatible. The EOS do not force believers to accept Augustine teachings. Most orthodox disagree with some claim he made like the guilt of original sin being passed down biologically. So EOS have different theories.

Augustine played a big role in Luther's theory. But I am reluctant to approve or reject Luther's theory on sola fide and sola gracia because maybe it can be interpreted differently. I disagree with saying that you are protestant THEREFORE you accept Luther THEREFORE you have such better assurance and reliance on faith and trust in God than RCs. The fact is, Anglicans and Methodists also don't accept Luther's or of course Calvin's formulas on monergism, God's will alone, hardly any more than RCSs.

Personally I am open to ecumenism and seeing Lutheranism and RCS and EOS as compatible in their basics, including soteriology and even whether Lutherans and Anglicans have a link back to the apostles with their bishops.

It's nice writing to you.
 
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rakovsky

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So, I your own words as a Catholic, how does one get saved?

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Probably same thing as Luther did to some extent. Faith and works are both key factors in being saved. RCS and Protestants fight too much over that stuff.
 
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Most orthodox disagree with some claim he made like the guilt of original sin being passed down biologically. So EOS have different theories.


It's nice writing to you.

It is a pleasure for me also. I just wanted to ask, without the guilt of original sin being passed down biologically, wouldn't that have a dramatic effect on the "immaculate conception " and infant baptism?

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rakovsky

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Agreed. But works will not have any influence on your salvation.

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the two posts above are examples
It is a pleasure for me also. I just wanted to ask, without the guilt of original sin being passed down biologically, wouldn't that have a dramatic effect on the "immaculate conception " and infant baptism?

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Yes, in that EOS didn't gave to do theological gymnastics like RCS and Protestants do on those subjects, eg. explaining whether unbaptized babies and fetuses go to hell because of original sin.

Basically everyone gets an immaculate conception in some sense of the word, and we don't have to imagine that there was an exception for Mary or Jesus, who are fully human in their biology.
 
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Probably same thing as Luther did to some extent. Faith and works are both key factors in being saved. RCS and Protestants fight too much over that stuff.
Here is my take on it. What ever is truly required for salvation must be found in the Gospels. Particularly in red font. I cannot accept for one second that God would allow his only begotten son to die on the cross without saying everything that needed to be said in His own words. In other words, infant baptism, confessions to a priest, accepting transubstantiation of the eucharist, ect... is not necessary.

Now I am in no way saying that the rest of scripture is unimportant. It is! The rest of the bible will help us to grow and mature from our salvation but not required for salvation for reasons stated above.

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Root of Jesse

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What do you believe will happen in the end times? Do you believe you will be raised from the grave or do you believe you will be in Heaven the moment you die?
My soul goes immediately to Judgement, and my body will follow.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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The problem is you attempting to tell us what the Catholic Church teaches then posting falsehoods.

Deal with the issues. I'm sure we'll have disagreements even if you accurately report what the Church teaches.

Posting scripture in context is not dealing with the issues? I am dealing with the issues. I will say this, I am not against Catholic people like one other brother put on here. I am against false teaching and the institution as it is today. I was raised Catholic, first Holy Communion, Confirmed, went to CCD for several years. I am not speaking as someone who is clueless to what it means to be Catholic.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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The problem is you attempting to tell us what the Catholic Church teaches then posting falsehoods.

Deal with the issues. I'm sure we'll have disagreements even if you accurately report what the Church teaches.

Posting scripture in context is not dealing with the issues? I am dealing with the issues. I will say this, I am not against Catholic people like one other brother put on here. I am against false teaching and the institution as it is today. I was raised Catholic, first Holy Communion, Confirmed, went to CCD for several years. I am not speaking as someone who is clueless to what it means to be Catholic.
 
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Thursday

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Posting scripture in context is not dealing with the issues? I am dealing with the issues. I will say this, I am not against Catholic people like one other brother put on here. I am against false teaching and the institution as it is today. I was raised Catholic, first Holy Communion, Confirmed, went to CCD for several years. I am not speaking as someone who is clueless to what it means to be Catholic.


You posted falsehoods when you claimed that indulgences are for the forgiveness of sins. You are wrong.

Start with facts, then debate the issues.

Don't start with a lie.
 
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rakovsky

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Here is my take on it. What ever is truly required for salvation must be found in the Gospels. Particularly in red font. I cannot accept for one second that God would allow his only begotten son to die on the cross without saying everything that needed to be said in His own words. In other words, infant baptism, confessions to a priest, accepting transubstantiation of the eucharist, ect... is not necessary.
According to EOS and RCs, baptism is not 100% needed for salvation because some people died before baptism but are saints.
Also there are two possible EO answers to what you said. 1. What you said is not 100 % required because maybe even non Christians can get saved. We are not as dogmatic as Luther and Calvin.

2. The things you listed are not proven so simply that you cannot argue with it, but the teachings are still there in some cersion. It's like Isaiah 53. Rabbis say it does predict jesus and how can jesus be important for salvation if the Tanakh doesn't teach jesus?
The Christian answer us that you need to see the teaching inside the passage even the Isaiah 53 never says "the Messiah is jesus who gets killed by plate in 33 ad".

The truth is, objective literary analysis shows its about a Messiah who gets killed as atonement. But the Bible doesn't spell everything out so clear you have to accept it.

Same thing with eucharist. 1 Cor 10 to 1 Cor 11 says you have to discern the body in the eucharist or else you risk getting sick. But people who don't believe that will fight against reading the verse that way. By the way, even Lutherans teach that the verse says that you have to discern the real presence in the bread. That's why for a long time Lutherans didn't let Calvinists take communion. They were worried they would get hurt somehow.
 
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Thursday

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Agreed. But works will not have any influence on your salvation.

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Salvation is by grace, but persistent resistance to God's grace will destroy your faith.

We must cooperate with God's free gift. A one time experience does not guarantee salvation if a person later turns from God's will.
 
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Salvation is by grace, but persistent resistance to God's grace will destroy your faith.

We must cooperate with God's free gift. A one time experience does not guarantee salvation if a person later turns from God's will.
Agreed.

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Salvation is by grace, but persistent resistance to God's grace will destroy your faith.

We must cooperate with God's free gift. A one time experience does not guarantee salvation if a person later turns from God's will.
The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

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Thursday

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The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

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I agree for the most part.

However, I think Paul is quite clear that we will be judged for our actions.

Here are some examples:

Romans 2
. 6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

1 Cor 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.
 
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ToBeLoved

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According to EOS and RCs, baptism is not 100% needed for salvation because some people died before baptism but are saints.
Also there are two possible EO answers to what you said. 1. What you said is not 100 % required because maybe even non Christians can get saved. We are not as dogmatic as Luther and Calvin.

2. The things you listed are not proven so simply that you cannot argue with it, but the teachings are still there in some cersion. It's like Isaiah 53. Rabbis say it does predict jesus and how can jesus be important for salvation if the Tanakh doesn't teach jesus?
The Christian answer us that you need to see the teaching inside the passage even the Isaiah 53 never says "the Messiah is jesus who gets killed by plate in 33 ad".

The truth is, objective literary analysis shows its about a Messiah who gets killed as atonement. But the Bible doesn't spell everything out so clear you have to accept it.

Same thing with eucharist. 1 Cor 10 to 1 Cor 11 says you have to discern the body in the eucharist or else you risk getting sick. But people who don't believe that will fight against reading the verse that way. By the way, even Lutherans teach that the verse says that you have to discern the real presence in the bread. That's why for a long time Lutherans didn't let Calvinists take communion. They were worried they would get hurt somehow.

How does this relate to salvation? Isn't that the point or did I miss something?
 
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ToBeLoved

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Salvation is by grace, but persistent resistance to God's grace will destroy your faith.

We must cooperate with God's free gift. A one time experience does not guarantee salvation if a person later turns from God's will.

What is persistent resistance to grace? Is not Gods grace in the free gift of which none deserves?
 
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