The Early Church is the Catholic Church

[rakovsky]

That's a valid point. However, if the Catholic Church has been teaching the same thing for 1900 years and it is scripturally sound, then why doubt it?

Why assume that someone 1500 years later understood the teachings of the apostles better than those who learned the gospel from the apostles?

Yes. This is a good point.
They reinterpreted the bible to match their own views.
Calvin has a huge habit of saying that his interpretation is true because of reason and common sense.
Truth is. Back in 40 ad they believed more in supernatural things like holy oil.

 

[Thursday]

Sounds like a potential controversy for some modern EO theologians to explain.

There are probably some big differences in emphasis and practice.

I think the theological underpinnings are almost identical.

The problem was the abuses that occurred in the Catholic Church by some less than scrupulous bishops around the time of the Reformation.

 

[rakovsky]

Gnosticism and Arianism were also beliefs from the 30 to 300 ad period. Many Christians believed a lot of different things that weren't true. All because of traditions that were passed orally.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

Unlike using holy oil and the Assumption, gnosticism and Arians were rejected by mainstream christians. Back in those days there was more belief in the supernatural.

 

[rakovsky]

I think the theological underpinnings are almost identical.

The problem was the abuses that occurred in the Catholic Church by some less than scrupulous bishops around the time of the Reformation.

That topic needs it's own thread.

RCS made special teachings on merits and on indulgences. If you want to claim compatibility please make a new threadin the EO section.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

It's selfish to want to go to heaven, but that doesn't mean it is a bad idea.

You obviously didn't read the article and you don't know much about indulgences other than what you have read from anti Catholic propaganda.

I am about to go on a rant but I just want to make it clear that I do not have any issues with Catholics. I was born and raised Roman Catholic and my parents are still Catholic. So nothing I am saying is a direct attack on individual Catholics but rather on the institution of the Roman Catholic Church and it's theology. So when I use the term "catholics" it does not necessarily mean "every or all catholic".

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain defined conditions through the Church’s help when, as a minister of redemption, she dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions won by Christ and the saints" (Indulgentiarum Doctrina 1).

See, here is the problem. According to Roman Catholic Theology, you never truly know if you are saved. You may theoretically be saved one day but you may lose your salvation due to "mortal sin". So catholics have this constant fear of "am i really saved? What if i am living in mortal sin and not know it? The church teaches that baptism, communion, confession, confirmation, charity, indulgences, and penance is part of the salvation process.

So it is natural for Catholics to do charitable works in order to preserve their salvation. These outward acts of charity are no more than a product of their "inward bending" to preserve their souls. It's selfish in nature and is what troubled Martin Luther.

As a protestant, I know I am saved because of the blood of Jesus. To even suggest the need for baptism, confession of sin to a priest, communion, confirmation, penance, charity, or any other steps to the path of salvation would say that Jesus was not enough! The cross is not enough! Yes you have to believe in Jesus to be saved.... but I also have to do this sacrament and that ritual on top of it! For every added step in the process of salvation, it makes what Jesus did on the cross that much less significant.

As a protestant, I know I am saved by faith and justified through grace. As a protestant, I don't need to carry out acts of charity in order to gain anything. I do it simply because I want to obey God's will and be His hands. I want to serve God as his instrument on earth.



Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

That topic needs it's own thread.

RCS made special teachings on merits and on indulgences. If you want to claim compatibility please make a new threadin the EO section.

Yeah....there are a lot of topics that deserve their own thread. I agree that we should try to stay on topic.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

 

[Thursday]

See, here is the problem. According to Roman Catholic Theology, you never truly know if you are saved. You may theoretically be saved one day but you may lose your salvation due to "mortal sin".

What does the bible teach us about this matter?

Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Heb 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Roman 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

James 5
19My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

 

[Thursday]

Yeah....there are a lot of topics that deserve their own thread. I agree that we should try to stay on topic.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

It is a broad topic, though, and I think all of the things we've been debating are related. As the creator of this thread I have no problem with any of these discussions.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Do you accept these words of Jesus to his apostles?

Luke 10:16
16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

1 John 2
19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Heb 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Hebrews 13 in context

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

What we are to obey is the word of GOD, not the man, or some man made institution. It is right there in context, and context is everything.

Notice it says Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Jesus never lifted Mary up to any position while he was here and matter of fact did the contrary.

 

[Thursday]

What we are to obey is the word of GOD, not the man, or some man made institution. It is right there in context, and context is everything.

That's not what the bible says.

The problem with your dogma is that it leads to confusion.

Different individuals can interpret scripture in many different and contradictory ways. That's why Jesus didn't give us a book, he gave us a Church. He told us to listen to those he sent.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

I don't think you even know what indulgences are.

Try this:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/myths-about-indulgences

Indulgences are the idea that one can do something or pay some amount of money to be forgiven of their sin. NONE of which is biblical and frankly it is a heresy.

In recent months, dioceses around the world have been offering Catholics a spiritual benefit that fell out of favor decades ago — the indulgence, a sort of amnesty from punishment in the afterlife — and reminding them of the church’s clout in mitigating the wages of sin.

The fact that many Catholics under 50 have never sought one, and never heard of indulgences except in high school European history (Martin Luther denounced the selling of them in 1517 while igniting the Protestant Reformation), simply makes their reintroduction more urgent among church leaders bent on restoring fading traditions of penance in what they see as a self-satisfied world.

“Why are we bringing it back?” asked Bishop Nicholas A. DiMarzio of Brooklyn, who has embraced the move. “Because there is sin in the world.” …

According to church teaching, even after sinners are absolved in the confessional and say their Our Fathers or Hail Marys as penance, they still face punishment after death, in Purgatory, before they can enter heaven. In exchange for certain prayers, devotions or pilgrimages in special years, a Catholic can receive an indulgence, which reduces or erases that punishment instantly, with no formal ceremony or sacrament.

There are partial indulgences, which reduce purgatorial time by a certain number of days or years, and plenary indulgences, which eliminate all of it, until another sin is committed. You can get one for yourself, or for someone who is dead. You cannot buy one — the church outlawed the sale of indulgences in 1567 — but charitable contributions, combined with other acts, can help you earn one. There is a limit of one plenary indulgence per sinner per day.

- See more at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispat...llows-indulgences-again/#sthash.fUFtu0p0.dpuf

Yes the Church is once again selling indulgences....

 

[Thursday]

Indulgences are the idea that one can do something or pay some amount of money to be forgiven of their sin.

Absolutely false.

Indulgences have nothing to do with the forgiveness of sin.

Please stop trying to post Catholic doctrine.

All you are doing is repeating the lies of ignorant anti Catholic bigots.

Feel free to debate the issues, but don't speak for the Catholic Church.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

That's not what the bible says.

The problem with your dogma is that it leads to confusion.

Different individuals can interpret scripture in many different and contradictory ways. That's why Jesus didn't give us a book, he gave us a Church. He told us to listen to those he sent.

Dude, it is in plain English, this is not a "dogma" issue. It clearly says obey the word of GOD they teach you. If the man says do something against what the word of Jesus taught you think it means he overrides Jesus? That is absurd. Not a dogma issue and not an interpretation issue. It is really not that hard to understand.

You were just arguing about some pope heretic or bad popes in the past. So let's use your logic. Even if you admit now they were bad, at that time they were telling people to do things that were against the very word of God. Like inquisitions for example. Telling other Catholics to kill people who did not convert of pledge to the pope. Now you think the context of Hebrews 13 is condoning that? No it is not. Gods word is the ultimate authority not a man, it is right there in plain English, please read your bible in context and ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand, he will.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Absolutely false.

Indulgences have nothing to do with the forgiveness of sin.

Please stop trying to post Catholic doctrine.

All you are doing is repeating the lies of ignorant anti Catholic bigots.

Feel free to debate the issues, but don't speak for the Catholic Church.

So anyone who disagrees with the teachings of the RCC is a bigot? Really....

There is well documented fact of the RCC selling indulgences. To this day you can pay your local RCC church to pray someone out of purgatory, that is selling indulgences my friend.

 

[rakovsky]

I am about to go on a rant but I just want to make it clear that I do not have any issues with Catholics. I was born and raised Roman Catholic and my parents are still Catholic. So nothing I am saying is a direct attack on individual Catholics but rather on the institution of the Roman Catholic Church and it's theology. So when I use the term "catholics" it does not necessarily mean "every or all catholic".

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain defined conditions through the Church’s help when, as a minister of redemption, she dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions won by Christ and the saints" (Indulgentiarum Doctrina 1).

See, here is the problem. According to Roman Catholic Theology, you never truly know if you are saved. You may theoretically be saved one day but you may lose your salvation due to "mortal sin". So catholics have this constant fear of "am i really saved? What if i am living in mortal sin and not know it? The church teaches that baptism, communion, confession, confirmation, charity, indulgences, and penance is part of the salvation process.

There is a weird teaching in Calvinism called Evanescence of Grace where Calvin says that people may sincerely believe in God and get signs or other assurance of faith but actually are not saved. They only have the "evanescence " of grace.

On another note, I think that the teachings on salvation in Methodist, Anglican, RC, Lutheran, and EO theology may be practically complementary.

Jason, There are two major factions -

1. Methodist RC Anglican EO who teach the importance of free will, faith and doing what God wants
and
2. Calvinist Evangelical Baptist who downgrade free will severely or deny , teach a kind of infallibilistic once saved always saved assurance of faith.

PCUSA is kind of between those two poles. I think Lutheran is in category #1 but alot of their rhetoric like sola fide comes off to many as between 1 and 2

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

There is a weird teaching in Calvinism called Evanescence of Grace where Calvin says that people may sincerely believe in God and get signs or other assurance of faith but actually are not saved. They only have the "evanescence " of grace.

On another note, I think that the teachings on salvation in Methodist, Anglican, RC, Lutheran, and EO theology may be practically complementary.

Jason, There are two major factions -

1. Methodist RC Anglican EO who teach the importance of free will, faith and doing what God wants
and
2. Calvinist Evangelical Baptist who downgrade free will severely or deny , teach a kind of infallibilistic once saved always saved assurance of faith.

PCUSA is kind of between those two poles. I think Lutheran is in category #1 but alot of their rhetoric like sola fide comes off to many as between 1 and 2

I agree. I understand Calvin's thought process and I don't agree. The term that is commonly used for this "once saved always saved" belief is called "easy believeism ".

Easy believism is a somewhat derogatory term used by opponents of the view that one needs only to believe in Jesus in order to be saved. From this they conclude that those who hold to sola fide (“faith alone”) teach that no corresponding need exists for a committed life of Christian discipleship as proof of salvation; however, that is not what sola fide means. True faith in Christ will always lead to a changed life. Another common usage of the term easy believism is in regards to those who believe they’re saved because they prayed a prayer—with no real conviction of sin and no real faith in Christ. Praying a prayer is easy—thus the term easy believism—but there is more to salvation than mouthing words.

Much of the debate over easy believism is unnecessary and is based on a misunderstanding of the Scriptures. The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The essence of this doctrine is found in Ephesians 2:8–9: “For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.” So we see that faith, given as a gift by God, is what saves us. But the next verse tells of the results of that salvation: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Rather than being saved by some easy act of our own wills, we are saved by the hand of God Almighty, by His will and for His use. We are His servants, and from the moment of salvation by faith, we embark on a journey of pre-ordained good works that are the evidence of that salvation. If there is no evidence of growth and good works, we have reason to doubt that salvation ever truly took place. “Faith without works is dead” (James 2:20), and a dead faith is not a saving faith.

“Faith alone” does not mean that some believers follow Christ in a life of discipleship, while others do not. The concept of the “carnal Christian,” as a separate category of non-spiritual believer, is completely unscriptural. The idea of the carnal Christian says that a person may receive Christ as Savior during a religious experience but never manifest evidence of a changed life. This is a false and dangerous teaching in that it excuses various ungodly lifestyles: a man may be an unrepentant adulterer, liar, or thief, but he’s “saved” because he prayed a prayer as a child; he’s just a “carnal Christian.” The Bible nowhere supports the idea that a true Christian can remain carnal for an entire lifetime. Rather, God’s Word presents only two categories of people: Christians and non-Christians, believers and unbelievers, those who have bowed to the Lordship of Christ and those who have not (see John 3:36; Romans 6:17–18; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:18–24; Ephesians 2:1–5; 1 John 1:5–7; 2:3–4).

While the security of salvation is a biblical fact based upon the finished work of salvation by Christ, it is certainly true that some of those who seemed to have “made a decision” or “accepted Christ” may not genuinely be saved. As noted before, true salvation is not so much our accepting Christ as it is His accepting us. We are saved by the power of God for the purpose of God, and that purpose includes the works that give evidence of our conversion. Those who continue to walk according to the flesh are not believers (Romans 8:5–8). This is why Paul exhorts us to “examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith” (2 Corinthians 13:5). The “carnal” Christian who examines himself will soon see that he/she is not in the faith.

James 2:19 says, “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!” The type of “belief” demons have can be compared to the intellectual assent made by those who “believe” in Jesus in the fact that He exists or that He was a good person. Many unbelievers say, “I believe in God” or “I believe in Jesus”; others say, “I prayed a prayer, and the preacher said I was saved.” But such prayers and such belief do not necessarily signal a change of heart. The problem is a misunderstanding of the word believe. With true salvation comes genuine repentance and real life change. Second Corinthians 5:17 says that those who are in Christ are a “new creation.” Is it possible that the new person Christ creates is one who continues to walk in the carnality of the flesh? No.

Salvation is certainly free, but, at the same time, it costs us everything. We are to die to ourselves as we change into the likeness of Christ. Where easy believism fails is its lack of recognition that a person with faith in Jesus will lead a progressively changed life. Salvation is a free gift from God to those who believe, but discipleship and obedience are the response that will no doubt occur when one truly comes to Christ in faith.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

 

[Thursday]

So anyone who disagrees with the teachings of the RCC is a bigot? Really....

There is well documented fact of the RCC selling indulgences. To this day you can pay your local RCC church to pray someone out of purgatory, that is selling indulgences my friend.

The problem is you attempting to tell us what the Catholic Church teaches then posting falsehoods.

Deal with the issues. I'm sure we'll have disagreements even if you accurately report what the Church teaches.

 

[ToBeLoved]

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

What we are to obey is the word of GOD, not the man, or some man made institution. It is right there in context, and context is everything.

Notice it says Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Jesus never lifted Mary up to any position while he was here and matter of fact did the contrary.

Great point!!!!!!

 

[ToBeLoved]

I agree. I understand Calvin's thought process and I don't agree. The term that is commonly used for this "once saved always saved" belief is called "easy believeism ".

Easy believism is a somewhat derogatory term used by opponents of the view that one needs only to believe in Jesus in order to be saved. From this they conclude that those who hold to sola fide (“faith alone”) teach that no corresponding need exists for a committed life of Christian discipleship as proof of salvation; however, that is not what sola fide means. True faith in Christ will always lead to a changed life. Another common usage of the term easy believism is in regards to those who believe they’re saved because they prayed a prayer—with no real conviction of sin and no real faith in Christ. Praying a prayer is easy—thus the term easy believism—but there is more to salvation than mouthing words.

Much of the debate over easy believism is unnecessary and is based on a misunderstanding of the Scriptures. The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The essence of this doctrine is found in Ephesians 2:8–9: “For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.” So we see that faith, given as a gift by God, is what saves us. But the next verse tells of the results of that salvation: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Rather than being saved by some easy act of our own wills, we are saved by the hand of God Almighty, by His will and for His use. We are His servants, and from the moment of salvation by faith, we embark on a journey of pre-ordained good works that are the evidence of that salvation. If there is no evidence of growth and good works, we have reason to doubt that salvation ever truly took place. “Faith without works is dead” (James 2:20), and a dead faith is not a saving faith.

“Faith alone” does not mean that some believers follow Christ in a life of discipleship, while others do not. The concept of the “carnal Christian,” as a separate category of non-spiritual believer, is completely unscriptural. The idea of the carnal Christian says that a person may receive Christ as Savior during a religious experience but never manifest evidence of a changed life. This is a false and dangerous teaching in that it excuses various ungodly lifestyles: a man may be an unrepentant adulterer, liar, or thief, but he’s “saved” because he prayed a prayer as a child; he’s just a “carnal Christian.” The Bible nowhere supports the idea that a true Christian can remain carnal for an entire lifetime. Rather, God’s Word presents only two categories of people: Christians and non-Christians, believers and unbelievers, those who have bowed to the Lordship of Christ and those who have not (see John 3:36; Romans 6:17–18; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:18–24; Ephesians 2:1–5; 1 John 1:5–7; 2:3–4).

While the security of salvation is a biblical fact based upon the finished work of salvation by Christ, it is certainly true that some of those who seemed to have “made a decision” or “accepted Christ” may not genuinely be saved. As noted before, true salvation is not so much our accepting Christ as it is His accepting us. We are saved by the power of God for the purpose of God, and that purpose includes the works that give evidence of our conversion. Those who continue to walk according to the flesh are not believers (Romans 8:5–8). This is why Paul exhorts us to “examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith” (2 Corinthians 13:5). The “carnal” Christian who examines himself will soon see that he/she is not in the faith.

James 2:19 says, “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!” The type of “belief” demons have can be compared to the intellectual assent made by those who “believe” in Jesus in the fact that He exists or that He was a good person. Many unbelievers say, “I believe in God” or “I believe in Jesus”; others say, “I prayed a prayer, and the preacher said I was saved.” But such prayers and such belief do not necessarily signal a change of heart. The problem is a misunderstanding of the word believe. With true salvation comes genuine repentance and real life change. Second Corinthians 5:17 says that those who are in Christ are a “new creation.” Is it possible that the new person Christ creates is one who continues to walk in the carnality of the flesh? No.

Salvation is certainly free, but, at the same time, it costs us everything. We are to die to ourselves as we change into the likeness of Christ. Where easy believism fails is its lack of recognition that a person with faith in Jesus will lead a progressively changed life. Salvation is a free gift from God to those who believe, but discipleship and obedience are the response that will no doubt occur when one truly comes to Christ in faith.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

Would you guys please define these words/phrases? This is really confusuing.

Which of these two definitions is your understanding?

What is easy believism?

"Easy believism" is a derogatory label used by some people to describe one or two different "ways" of becoming a Christian. First is the notion that nothing more is necessary for salvation than an intellectual acknowledgment of God's work on the cross, accompanied by a verbal appeal to be saved. This "formula for salvation" is often coupled with the accusation that it is then okay to go out and live a sinful life without any good works since a person has said "The Sinner's Prayer" and is now saved no matter what.

Second, the other sense in which the term is used is when describing the idea of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, where no works are necessary to obtain salvation.

 

[Thursday]

Would you guys please define these words/phrases? This is really confusuing.

Which of these two definitions is your understanding?

What is easy believism?

"Easy believism" is a derogatory label used by some people to describe one or two different "ways" of becoming a Christian. First is the notion that nothing more is necessary for salvation than an intellectual acknowledgment of God's work on the cross, accompanied by a verbal appeal to be saved. This "formula for salvation" is often coupled with the accusation that it is then okay to go out and live a sinful life without any good works since a person has said "The Sinner's Prayer" and is now saved no matter what.

Second, the other sense in which the term is used is when describing the idea of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, where no works are necessary to obtain salvation.

Faith without works will not save you.