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Someone Please Explain Olive Tree Theology

dfw69

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Actually the revealing is not about his first appearance but to his being uncovered, exposed and revealed as being the man of sin because before that he claimed to be God. Naturally his first appearance came before the Apostasy because he causes it. He is revealed/uncovered by Christ when he returns and proves the other was a false God.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The revealing is tied directly to the return of Christ.

G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
Thayer Definition:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2572
Citing in TDNT: 3:563, 405

The man of sin is the Antichrist and ill claim to be God as Paul writes. That is a lie and it is a veil which he covers himself with like a mask. To reveal him as the fraud he is is to unveil, and uncover and "disclose what before was unknown"

And that is specifically that he was not God but a fake, the man of sin merely lying about being God. Only the return of Christ makes that clear.

Good post..

There will be the spirit of God poured out also to witness against him as well ...Angels will be seen testifying against him as well.. And 144000 and two witnesses will also come
 
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Luke17:37

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Actually the revealing is not about his first appearance but to his being uncovered, exposed and revealed as being the man of sin because before that he claimed to be God. Naturally his first appearance came before the Apostasy because he causes it. He is revealed/uncovered by Christ when he returns and proves the other was a false God.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The revealing is tied directly to the return of Christ.

G601
ἀποκαλύπτω
apokaluptō
Thayer Definition:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2572
Citing in TDNT: 3:563, 405

The man of sin is the Antichrist and ill claim to be God as Paul writes. That is a lie and it is a veil which he covers himself with like a mask. To reveal him as the fraud he is is to unveil, and uncover and "disclose what before was unknown"

And that is specifically that he was not God but a fake, the man of sin merely lying about being God. Only the return of Christ makes that clear.

But Christians who are awake will recognize him as the many of sin and man of these will be slain by him. So he is revealed to them earlier before he is conquered, shown to the whole world to be a wicked deceiver, when Christ will throw him alive into the Lake of Fire (along with the false prophet). And if it's impossible for Christians to recognize him by his works, why would Paul even mention him this way? When we see the man of sin who claims to be God and when we see many Christians fall away from their faith, we know the time of Jesus' coming is near. Before those things occur, it cannot happen.
 
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StanJ

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Why do you believe the great apostasy and the man of sin is revealed before the Tribulation?

I just showed you why and there are other places Jesus' pre-trib return is also shown. It's not complicated then neither is the Bible unless you make it so. Post #59 gave you a lot of scriptural information, so I don't feel that it's necessary for me to repeat it, you can read it for yourself.
 
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ewq1938

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But Christians who are awake will recognize him as the many of sin and man of these will be slain by him.

Yes they will but the rest of the world will believe his lies about being God.

So he is revealed to them earlier before he is conquered, shown to the whole world to be a wicked deceiver

The world won't know who he is until Christ reveals his true identity.



And if it's impossible for Christians to recognize him by his works, why would Paul even mention him this way?

It's not impossible at all. It's only the deceived that don't who he is. Christ will reveal who he is to the world when He returns.



When we see the man of sin who claims to be God and when we see many Christians fall away from their faith, we know the time of Jesus' coming is near. Before those things occur, it cannot happen.

Of course. That's why the pre-trib rapture is false.
 
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Job8

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You're assuming they were raptured but the Bible doesn't say it.
Why do Christians always expect that God will make explicit statements about everything? Why don't we believe that truths are also implied in Scripture, and arriving at a truth by implication is perfectly valid? I run into this all the time. "Oh, but Scripture does not SAY this!" The response is "But does Scripture IMPLY this?"

Let's take an example. All four Gospels state that Christ "gave up the ghost" or "yielded up the ghost" after His crucifixion. Oh, someone will say, it does not state explicitly that Christ actually died on the Cross. But is that not implied? Similarly, when we see the 144,000 in Heaven, it is already implied that they were taken there from earth supernaturally, or raptured.
 
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ewq1938

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Similarly, when we see the 144,000 in Heaven, it is already implied that they were taken there from earth supernaturally, or raptured.

Never are the 144k shown to be in heaven.
 
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Job8

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Never are the 144k shown to be in heaven.
Is God's throne in Heaven? Yes
Are the 24 elders in Heaven? Yes
Are the 4 living creatures (beasts) in Heaven? Yes
When one is redeemed from the earth, does that mean one is in Heaven? Yes
So why do you resist the truth?

Please note carefully (Rev 14:3): And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
 
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ewq1938

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When one is redeemed from the earth, does that mean one is in Heaven? Yes

No.




Please note carefully (Rev 14:3): And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.


Why highlight the wrong things? The important part is the 144k are learning the song not singing it.

Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.


The "and they sung" are the harpers who are playing and singing. The 144k don't know the song because it is NEW. So they are listening and learning it from the singing harpers.

We already know where the 144k are from the first verse:

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Mt Sion is in Israel which is on the planet Earth.
 
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dfw69

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Is God's throne in Heaven? Yes
Are the 24 elders in Heaven? Yes
Are the 4 living creatures (beasts) in Heaven? Yes
When one is redeemed from the earth, does that mean one is in Heaven? Yes
So why do you resist the truth?

Please note carefully (Rev 14:3): And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Those that reject the kingdom of heaven naturally seek an earthly kingdom ...and they prefer the law instead of Jesus fulfilling the law for them which will lead to falsehood and false kingdoms with false prophets and false messiahs ...
 
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dfw69

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No.






Why highlight the wrong things? The important part is the 144k are learning the song not singing it.

Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.


The "and they sung" are the harpers who are playing and singing. The 144k don't know the song because it is NEW. So they are listening and learning it from the singing harpers.

We already know where the 144k are from the first verse:

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Mt Sion is in Israel which is on the planet Earth.

Is there not a mt Zion in heaven as well?

The 144000 are with the elders and before the throne and the four beast and the lamb..it's a picture of heaven... The setting is heaven
 
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Luke17:37

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I just showed you why and there are other places Jesus' pre-trib return is also shown. It's not complicated then neither is the Bible unless you make it so. Post #59 gave you a lot of scriptural information, so I don't feel that it's necessary for me to repeat it, you can read it for yourself.

I don't believe pre-tribulation rapture is in the Bible. I believe in a post-Tribulation Resurrection Gathering at the return of Christ. I just wanted to encourage you to challenge that belief. But I guess you aren't interested. Oh, well. Good day.
 
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dfw69

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I don't believe pre-tribulation rapture is in the Bible. I believe in a post-Tribulation Resurrection Gathering at the return of Christ. I just wanted to encourage you to challenge that belief. But I guess you aren't interested. Oh, well. Good day.

You believe in an actual resurrection When you will see your loved ones again or is it a spiritual one like an awakening?
 
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ewq1938

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Is there not a mt Zion in heaven as well?

No. Heaven has no mountains.


The 144000 are with the elders and before the throne and the four beast and the lamb..it's a picture of heaven... The setting is heaven

No, the 144k are standing on an Earthly mountain with Christ at the second coming. They are before the throne where they stand because all the Earth is before his throne. Sorry, but the text identifies the singers as the harpists, not the 144k. A common misinterpretation.
 
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dfw69

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No. Heaven has no mountains.




No, the 144k are standing on an Earthly mountain with Christ at the second coming. They are before the throne where they stand because all the Earth is before his throne. Sorry, but the text identifies the singers as the harpists, not the 144k. A common misinterpretation.


i have to disagree but ok thanks for clarifying
 
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StanJ

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I don't believe pre-tribulation rapture is in the Bible. I believe in a post-Tribulation Resurrection Gathering at the return of Christ. I just wanted to encourage you to challenge that belief. But I guess you aren't interested. Oh, well. Good day.
Well that much was very obvious and so who's backing out of this debate?
 
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ewq1938

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i have to disagree but ok thanks for clarifying

Why would a large hill made of dirt be in heaven? Most mountains are old volcanoes or made from various tectonic plate shifts....none of that relates to heaven. It's just a common misinterpretation to think there are mountains in heaven.
 
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Luke17:37

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Why do Christians always expect that God will make explicit statements about everything? Why don't we believe that truths are also implied in Scripture, and arriving at a truth by implication is perfectly valid? I run into this all the time. "Oh, but Scripture does not SAY this!" The response is "But does Scripture IMPLY this?"

Let's take an example. All four Gospels state that Christ "gave up the ghost" or "yielded up the ghost" after His crucifixion. Oh, someone will say, it does not state explicitly that Christ actually died on the Cross. But is that not implied? Similarly, when we see the 144,000 in Heaven, it is already implied that they were taken there from earth supernaturally, or raptured.

I'm not expecting everything explicitly but the gathering of the Church is a pretty important thing and I am not going to believe where I don't even see it implied. I have 0% faith in a pre-tribulation gathering. Most of the Christian world believes the gathering is before the Tribulation or they don't believe in a literal Tribulation. Neither of these is mentally prepared to live victoriously through a difficult literal Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13; Matthew 24:21-22) and all its deceptions (Matthew 24:4-5, Matthew 24:11, Matthew 24:23-28).

I'm in a tiny minority who believes that Jesus comes back to gather His Church when He returns after the Tribulation. (Then and only then.)

Matthew 24:29-31
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

See, Matthew 24 teaches a Post-Tribulation Gathering at the Return of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This teaches the resurrection and gathering are at His coming. That's consistent with Matthew 24:30-31.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

This is what the beast of the sea will do in the Tribulation (Revelation 13:5-8).

There isn't a single Scripture in the Bible that people claim as Pre-Tribulation Gathering that doesn't work fine and better for a post-Tribulation Resurrection Gathering.

I believed in Pre-Tribulation Rapture, too, until like the Bereans I searched the Scriptures to see if these things were so. I can talk forever about why and cite passage and passage but I won't deny you the freedom to make up your own mind. Good day.
 
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Luke17:37

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You believe in an actual resurrection When you will see your loved ones again or is it a spiritual one like an awakening?

I believe in a physical resurrection of the dead in Christ (to glorified bodies) (1 Thessalonians 4:14, 16; Matthew 5:28-29, 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

I believe in a physical resurrection of those outside of Christ, too, after Jesus' thousand year reign. I believe they will live forever in torment in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14-15, Revelation 14:9-11).
 
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Luke17:37

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Well that much was very obvious and so who's backing out of this debate?

You didn't want to challenge it and I can't force you. But if you changed your mind, let me know where Scripture teaches a pre-Tribulation gathering.
 
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