The Early Church is the Catholic Church

[pat34lee]

Who should we look up to the Church that proudly traces its descent to Peter or the Church that follows the word of the LORD? Is the Church that is able to trace its succession back to Peter, 100% scripturally sound??? How much scripture supports the blessing or intercession to Mary & other venerated Saints? How comes apostles Including PETER only pointed us to God the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit and not others used in both Novenas and prayer books??? How comes only the Ordained are allowed to Interpret Scripture? Does it deny the competence of the Holy Spirit to teach layman or is it fear it will lead to more Protestantism?

The Catholic church went far afield, but when the
Protestants left them, they barely got out the doors
and brought most of the Catholic doctrines right out
with them.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The Messianic church was the first church. The church if taught as coming down in ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the circumcision, Peter.
Smyrna - Gentile Persecuted Church - Beginning with the Apostle to the uncircumcision, Paul.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate. Issues, yes, but we all have our issues. This is a Christian church all the same.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

I think you better take another study of what you claim

 

[Linet Kihonge]

The Catholic church went far afield, but when the
Protestants left them, they barely got out the doors
and brought most of the Catholic doctrines right out
with them.

yes, I Do accept considering the other older churches including the Presbyterians and the Anglicans practice some traditions that are consistent with Catholicism and other Orthodox traditions just that they don't pray to or seek intercessions from the departed. :/

 

[Soyeong]

The Apostles didn't teach Torah observance, so that seems like a pretty big non-issue.

-CryptoLutheran

I responded to a similar comment in post #54:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-catholic-church.7946245/page-3#post-69621513

 

[2Timothy2:15]

I do not see what is the point of this thread. Is this thread an ecumenical agenda in order to bring the evil protestants back to the mother church?

 

[rockytopva]

I think you better take another study of what you claim

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the circumcision, Peter.
Smyrna - Gentile Persecuted Church - Beginning with the Apostle to the uncircumcision, Paul.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

But it explains everything! Each church is unique and encapsulated. We find that the folk in the Messianic church has little to do with those in the Gentile church...

But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? - Galatians 2:14

The first church of the Jews did not have a lot to do with the second church of the Gentiles. It did not even seem that the first church wanted to eat with those of the second. This was a pattern to come for the full seven churches....

The Messianic Jew had little to do with the early Gentile church.
The Orthodox Church had little to do with the Catholic church
The Protestant Church had little to with the first four churches... Messianic, Persecuted, Orthodox, and Catholic.
The Protestant Church and the Revived church of the great awakening were at odds, especially names like Calvin and Arminius.
I would say, that here in Laodicean times, that people really do not care a whole lot about doctrine. So it is possible in our time that the churches will unite again as one.

The Catholic beliefs encapsulate the church within its congregation. Every 'good' Catholic believes his church is the only true church. And this is also true for many congregations within the single Christian church. There are other evidences as well. Example in the church of Smyrna the persecutions were ten... Exactly ten as outlined in the Foxes Book of Martyrs...

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. - Revelation 2

Ye Shall Have Tribulation Ten Days…
Time Persecutor Description
67 AD Nero The Smyrna Church Age begins with Nero setting fire to Rome, and then blaming the Christians
81 AD Domitian Declaration that no Christian should be exempt from punishment, Paul’s Timothy died in 97 AD.
108 AD Trajan and Adrian Severe persecution against Christians from 108 to 138 AD during the time of the Bishop Ignatius
162 AD Marcos Aurelius Marcos Aurelius, commendable in study of philosophy, sharp and fierce towards Christians.
192 AD Severus This persecution was carried out by the will and prejudice of the people and extended into Africa.
235 AD Maximus Numberless Christians were slain without trial and burned indiscriminately in heaps
249 AD Decius Began because of the amazing increase in Christianity, and with the heathen temples forsaken.
257 AD Valerian The martyrs that fell during this persecution were innumerable, their tortures and deaths painful.
274 AD Aurelian A brief persecution that ended with the emperor’s assassination.
303 AD Diocletian The last persecution ended with Constantine’s triumph against Rome in 313 AD

 

[Root of Jesse]

The problem is that the Catholic Church does not exist separately at this stage. The patriarchs of the eastern sees like Antioch and Alexandria were still in communion with Rome. The dogmas which later differentiated the Coptic from the Orthodox from the Catholic etc. were not yet in place. There was but one Catholic Church as the Apostle's creed says, which later became Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. These quotations can be used by Oriental and Eastern Orthodox churches as much as by the Roman Catholic Church. It merely shows that there was a tradition of Apostolic Succession, nothing else.

Catholic only means Universal. Both the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and many Protestants for that matter, claim to be both orthodox and catholic in the non-denominational senses of those words.

catholic, with a small C, is the call. Becoming Catholic (or Orthodox or whatever, is your answer to the call. It says "I believe that Christ said this but not that, x, but not y, etc. All Christians are part of the church Christ founded-the catholic Church.

 

[Root of Jesse]

1 Clement was written because of a dispute amongst presbyters at Corinth. It does not show nor prove papal supremacy over any other bishop.

It proves authority, because the pope imposed his views on the matter, and they listened.

Whether a Church without Peter's one is legitimate is another question. It boils down to what is meant by the 'Rock' upon which Jesus builds his Church. The Orthodox see it as Primus inter pares, First amongst Equals, which is why one of those could fall in error, even if the one that has the most illustrious place.

We see it as first among equals, too, and rely on the Holy Spirit to guide us, as Jesus said he would.\

Many Protestants deny that Apostolic Succession is even a thing and that that as well as the keys of heaven, were meant for Peter alone, not his successors.

And yet, it's Biblical. Meet Matthias, the successor of Judas. Meet two men ordained as bishops by Paul-Timothy and Titus.

If someone agrees with your argument, they would likely be a Roman Catholic already and you would be preaching to the converted.

For a long time, this was the case. Until Humanism crept in.

 

[Root of Jesse]

They asked for an opinion. He gave one and they thanked him for it and implemented it. There is nothing proving Clement had a Right to intervene, nor that he was acknowledged above their own bishop.

Diplomatically, maybe you're right. But when one goes to the head of the organization, they're normally seeking an authoritative decree. When one takes a case to the Supreme Court, they ask for an opinion, too, and it's authoritative when given.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Well, aren't you cute? That "Catholic" church cited above is the Orthodox Church, of course, not the errant schism that went its own way under Rome. Note that when ALL of the above were written, Rome was still in Communion with the rest of Orthodoxy. However, by the 11th century, Rome had begun to fall into pride and error. The Schism occurred, and Rome has been outside the actual Catholic church ever since, although She is welcome to return.

There is no doubt that Roman bishops and popes were corrupt at times, but never did the Holy Spirit allow error to creep into the Church Christ created.

 

[tickingclocker]

No other Church can legitimately make this claim.

These early writings confirm the truth that Jesus started one Church and it was the Catholic Church.

First up, this is taken from the letter of Pope Clement, the fourth pope, written to the Corinthians in about 90 AD. I've highlighted some key quotes that demonstrate the authority of the Church and the pope.

First Epistle to the Church at Corinth,
by His Holiness Pope St. Clement I


Chapter 40

These things therefore being manifest to us, and since we look into the depths of the divine knowledge, it behoves us to do all things in their proper order, which the Lord has commanded us to perform at stated times. He has enjoined offerings to be presented and service to be performed to Him, and that not thoughtlessly or irregularly, but at the appointed times and hours. Where and by whom He desires these things to be done, He Himself has fixed by His own supreme will, in order that all things being piously done according to His good pleasure, may be acceptable to Him. Those, therefore, who present their offerings at the appointed times, are accepted and blessed; for inasmuch as they follow the laws of the Lord, they sin not. For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests, and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites. The layman is bound by the laws that pertain to laymen.

Chapter 41

Let every one of you, brethren, give thanks to God in his own order, living in all good conscience, with becoming gravity, and not going beyond the rule of the ministry prescribed to him. Not in every place, brethren, are the daily sacrifices offered, or the peace-offerings, or the sin-offerings and the trespass-offerings, but in Jerusalem only. And even there they are not offered in any place, but only at the altar before the temple, that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers already mentioned. Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. You see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed.

Chapter 42

The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ has done so from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits of their labours, having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture a certain place, "I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith."

Chapter 43

And what wonder is it if those in Christ who were entrusted with such a duty by God, appointed those ministers before mentioned, when the blessed Moses also, "a faithful servant in all his house," noted down in the sacred books all the injunctions which were given him, and when the other prophets also followed him, bearing witness with one consent to the ordinances which he had appointed? For, when rivalry arose concerning the priesthood, and the tribes were contending among themselves as to which of them should be adorned with that glorious title, he commanded the twelve princes of the tribes to bring him their rods, each one being inscribed with the name of the tribe. And he took them and bound them together, and sealed them with the rings of the princes of the tribes, and laid them up in the tabernacle of witness on the table of God. And having shut the doors of the tabernacle, he sealed the keys, as he had done the rods, and said to them, Men and brethren, the tribe whose rod shall blossom has God chosen to fulfil the office of the priesthood, and to minister to Him. And when the morning was come, he assembled all Israel, six hundred thousand men, and showed the seals to the princes of the tribes, and opened the tabernacle of witness, and brought forth the rods. And the rod of Aaron was found not only to have blossomed, but to bear fruit upon it. What think you, beloved? Did not Moses know beforehand that this would happen? Undoubtedly he knew; but he acted thus, that there might be no sedition in Israel, and that the name of the true and only God might be glorified; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Chapter 44

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those presbyters already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole Church, and who have blame-lessly served the flock of Christ in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But we see that you have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour.

This and dozens of other early Church writings can be found here:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/

I can go as far as admitting that its the first organized, historical church named outside the bible. Yeah, I can do that. Doesn't really matter whether it is the original church or not. The Bride of Christ is going to be made of many parts. Hey, somebody is going to have to be her head. Whatever. My church expects to be a thumb. Has many uses and abilities, goes in all directions... yet remains attached to the body. And, we have a spare on the other hand. Not a bad deal.

 

[pat34lee]

yes, I Do accept considering the other older churches including the Presbyterians and the Anglicans practice some traditions that are consistent with Catholicism and other Orthodox traditions just that they don't pray to or seek intercessions from the departed. :/

How much of Baptist traditions come from the RCC?
Sunday, Easter, Christmas, Halloween, Peter as
first pope or head of church with keys to the kingdom,
law done away with, except what the church wants
to teach, steeples, crosses, pulpits, altars, clergy,
church services, same bible mostly, no following the
feasts of the Lord (not Jewish festivals) including the
Sabbath, which was given from Adam down, not just
to the Jews.
http://jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/catholic/papacy.html

 

[pat34lee]

There is no doubt that Roman bishops and popes were corrupt at times, but never did the Holy Spirit allow error to creep into the Church Christ created.

The body, which is what he created is not
a physical place or group of people. It is
spiritual, consisting of true followers of him
everywhere. Every organization is corrupt
because people are sinners.

 

[rockytopva]

23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. - Luke 13

I believe, for some, that it will be amazing to see who gains access to the heavenly kingdom. I believe that folks from all seven congregation, as I have outlined, sitting to meat and to drink, in the Kingdom of God. And then there will be folks, from all seven congregations, as I have outlined, who will be without, and have their portion of those who weep and gnash of teeth.

There are those who have martyred fellow brothers in the name of a church doctrine who will be really surprised of their errors on that day.

 

[Thursday]

What is the church? You're skipping over the definition, the church does not equal Peter. The church is every believer. The church is not some cult straight from the Roman Empire and their wackadoo Babylonian idol worship.

Peter and his successors lead the Church. The Church is the body of Christ.

Which Church do you think Jesus started? Who leads it on earth while we await the return of Jesus?

 

[Thursday]

Firstly, you aren't even quoting the Scriptures and it is the Scriptures and only the Scriptures that Jesus points us to.
Jesus says in John 17:17:
Sanctify them by Thy Truth; Thy Word is Truth.
You have veered off course from the Truth by adding to it...how dare anyone...and superimposing man made rules in other areas.

Jesus was praying for the leaders of the Church in John 17. The Church is sanctified in Truth.

 

[Thursday]

I do not see what is the point of this thread. Is this thread an ecumenical agenda in order to bring the evil protestants back to the mother church?

That's not exactly how I would state it, but yes.

Protestants are separated brethren but they are not in full communion with the body of Christ.

Protestant churches teach many contradictory doctrines and therefore, by definition, must be teaching some false doctrines.

The Church founded by Jesus is led in ALL truth.

 

[Thursday]

The body, which is what he created is not
a physical place or group of people. It is
spiritual, consisting of true followers of him
everywhere. Every organization is corrupt
because people are sinners.

Does his body teach two opposite doctrines as truth?

For example, some protestants teach that baptism is unnecessary to salvation, while others teach that it is absolutely required.

Both can't be true. Does the body of Christ teach false doctrines?

 

[Thursday]

I can go as far as admitting that its the first organized, historical church named outside the bible. Yeah, I can do that. Doesn't really matter whether it is the original church or not. The Bride of Christ is going to be made of many parts. Hey, somebody is going to have to be her head. Whatever. My church expects to be a thumb. Has many uses and abilities, goes in all directions... yet remains attached to the body. And, we have a spare on the other hand. Not a bad deal.

Does the body of Christ, led by the Holy Spirit, teach any false doctrines?

 

[tickingclocker]

Does the body of Christ, led by the Holy Spirit, teach any false doctrines?

Do we always stick perfectly to the truth of what the Holy Spirit always teaches us? If we don't, God promises there will be consequences. That is why we have the Nicene Creed, to keep us on track. It essentially 'jelled' Christianity into one whole, yet many parts. Ever notice non-Christian cults don't like that? They all try to knock it down all the time, or, try to divide us from it. Even if its just one person they can influence away from the eternal truth that shines forth from it, they will try.