The Early Church is the Catholic Church

prodromos

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The role of the pope was already well established. It was only centuries later that some Eastern Christians(the Orthodox) began to see political advantage in reducing his primacy. You'll see that their earlier Patriarchs were strong Catholics who acknowledged the role of the pope.

St. Proclus, Patriarch of Constantinople (434):
A disciple of St. John Chrysostom

Peter, the coryphaeus of the disciples, and the one set over (or chief of) the Apostles. Art not thou he that didst say, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God'? Thou Bar-Jonas (son of the dove) hast thou seen so many miracles, and art thou still but Simon (a hearer)? He appointed thee the key-bearer of Heaven, and has though not yet layed aside thy fisherman's clothing? (Proclus, Or. viii In Dom. Transfig. t. ix. Galland)

Here's strong evidence on that count in quotes from these various Eastern Patriarchs over the years:

Macedonius, Patriarch of Constantinople (466-516)

Macedonius declared, when desired by the Emperor Anastasius to condemn the Council of Chalcedon, that 'such a step without an Ecumenical Synod presided over by the Pope of Rome is impossible.' (Macedonius, Patr. Graec. 108: 360a (Theophan. Chronogr. pp. 234-346 seq.)

Emperor Justinian of Constantinople(520-533)

Writing to the Pope:
Yielding honor to the Apostolic See and to Your Holiness, and honoring your Holiness, as one ought to honor a father, we have hastened to subject all the priests of the whole Eastern district, and to unite them to the See of your Holiness, for we do not allow of any point, however manifest and indisputable it be, which relates to the state of the Churches, not being brought to the cognizance of your Holiness, since you are the Head of all the holy Churches. (Justinian Epist. ad. Pap. Joan. ii. Cod. Justin. lib. I. tit. 1).

Let your Apostleship show that you have worthily succeeded to the Apostle Peter, since the Lord will work through you, as Surpreme Pastor, the salvation of all. (Coll. Avell. Ep. 196, July 9th, 520, Justinian to Pope Hormisdas).

St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (c. 638)

Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine. Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgement and destroyed from the foundation ...the new heresy. (Sophronius, [quoted by Bishop Stephen of Dora to Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council], Mansi, 893)

John VI, Patriarch of Constantinople (715)

The Pope of Rome, the head of the Christian priesthood, whom in Peter, the Lord commanded to confirm his brethren. (John VI, Epist. ad Constantin. Pap. ad. Combefis, Auctuar. Bibl. P.P. Graec.tom. ii. p. 211, seq.)

St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (c. 638)

Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables and characters, I accept all his (the pope's) letters and teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace them with all my soul ... I recognize the latter as definitions of Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of our Catholic Church. (Sophronius, Mansi, xi. 461)

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Patriarch (363)

Our Lord Jesus Christ then became a man, but by the many He was not known. But wishing to teach that which was not known, having assembled the disciples, He asked, 'Whom do men say that the Son of man is?' ...And all being silent (for it was beyond man to learn) Peter, the Foremost of the Apostles, the Chief Herald of the Church, not using the language of his own finding, nor persuaded by human reasoning, but having his mind enlightened by the Father, says to Him, 'Thou art the Christ,' not simply that, but 'the Son of the living God.' (Cyril, Catech. xi. n. 3)

For Peter was there, who carrieth the keys of heaven. (Cyril, Catechetical Lectures A.D. 350).

Peter, the chief and foremost leader of the Apostles, before a little maid thrice denied the Lord, but moved to penitence, he wept bitterly. (Cyril, Catech ii. n. 15)
Above is typical Catholic conflation apologetics. A Church Father writes something about Peter and Catholics read it as being about the Bishop of Rome. The best example of how foolish this approach is, is through their misuse of St John Chrysostom who spent most of his life NOT in communion with Rome, and yet not once in the huge volume of his works does he say anything suggesting he needed that communion to be in Christ's Church.
 
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prodromos

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How can the Orthodox Church, which split from the Catholic Church, be the Church Christ founded when it doesn't even have as a member the successor of Peter?
It can be shown that Rome seperated from the other Patriarchs when they upheld Cardinal Humbert's laughable Bull of Excommunication (have you read it?) and went their own way.
I've asked before but I'll ask again, who do you think the Patriarch of Antioch traces his Apostolic succession back to?
 
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Thursday

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If you want to go down that path, our bishops are successors to all the Apostles including Peter.

Not true. The Bishop of Rome was recognized by the Eastern Patriarchs as the successor of Peter. When they left the Catholic Church, they were cutting themselves off from the successor of Peter and they knew this to be the case.
 
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Thursday

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The Catholic Church does not teach Torah observance, so that is a significant distinction from how Christianity was first practiced.


You are mistaken.

2 Col 2:16
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Acts 15
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
 
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Thursday

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It can be shown that Rome seperated from the other Patriarchs when they upheld Cardinal Humbert's laughable Bull of Excommunication (have you read it?) and went their own way.
I've asked before but I'll ask again, who do you think the Patriarch of Antioch traces his Apostolic succession back to?

You are avoiding the point because you have no choice. You and I both know that the Bishop of Rome was regarded as the successor of Peter by all the Eastern Patriarchs before, during, and after some of them left the Catholic Church.
 
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Thursday

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Yes, they asked for a judgement on their dispute from a respected authority of the Church. This does not mean they were akin to supplicants approaching their king. Clement was merely informing as to Church teaching, not declaring by fiat what that is. Neither history nor 1 Clement unambigiously supports your claims.

I believe that you are mistaken.

Review these quotes from Clement:

1) Corinth consults Rome:
Owing, dear brethren, to the sudden and successive calamitouseventswhich have happened to ourselves, we feel that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the points respecting which you consulted us;

2)Clement claims to be speaking with the authority of God:
If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves intransgression and serious danger;

and,

Let us, therefore, flee from the warning threats pronounced by Wisdom on the disobedient, and yield submission to His all-holy and glorious name, that we may stay our trust upon the most hallowed name of His majesty. Receive our counsel, and you shall be without repentance.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I believe that you are mistaken.

Review these quotes from Clement:

1) Corinth consults Rome:
Owing, dear brethren, to the sudden and successive calamitouseventswhich have happened to ourselves, we feel that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the points respecting which you consulted us;

2)Clement claims to be speaking with the authority of God:
If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves intransgression and serious danger;

and,

Let us, therefore, flee from the warning threats pronounced by Wisdom on the disobedient, and yield submission to His all-holy and glorious name, that we may stay our trust upon the most hallowed name of His majesty. Receive our counsel, and you shall be without repentance.
None of those quotes show unambiguously what you claim. My points stand in my opinion. It can be interpreted in that manner, but it does not necessarily have to be interpreted that way. Most historians do not for instance nor Orthodoxy.
 
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Thursday

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None of those quotes show unambiguously what you claim. My points stand in my opinion.

I disagree. I guess we'll have to leave it there as far a Clement goes.

Subsequent quotes from other early Christians support my position, however.

For example, how do you deal with this?

"[After quoting Matthew 16:18f; John 21:15ff]...

On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigned a like power to all the Apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one Chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (Cyprian, The Unity of the Catholic Church [first edition] 4, c. AD 251)
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I disagree. I guess we'll have to leave it there as far a Clement goes.

Subsequent quotes from other early Christians support my position, however.

For example, how do you deal with this?

"[After quoting Matthew 16:18f; John 21:15ff]...

On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigned a like power to all the Apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one Chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (Cyprian, The Unity of the Catholic Church [first edition] 4, c. AD 251)
This remains ambiguous as Orthodoxy will contend they are the Church and point to Antioch, which was also Peter's. They would claim to be the One fed by all the Apostles.
It is however a much stronger argument than your previous posts, I concur.
The problem is that the early Church from the council of Jerusalem in Acts onward, decided on questions of doctrine by ecumenical councils of all bishops. There is not much evidence in support of Papal superiority beyond a Primus inter pares perspective until the reforms of Gregory VII, itself a reaction to the inappropriate contentokratia and Investiture controversy. This however is after the Great Schism.
 
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Soyeong

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You are mistaken.

2 Col 2:16
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Acts 15
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so if God said to keep the Sabbath and you think man said not to keep the Sabbath, then you should obey God and disregard what man said. According Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's law, so if Paul had told anyone not to obey the Sabbath, then he would have been sinning. Furthermore, according to Deuteronomy 13:4-6, if anyone teaches against obeying any of God's commands, then they are false prophet, even if they perform signs and wonders, so if Paul taught anyone against keeping the Sabbath, then he was a false prophet and we should disregard what he said. However, if we are careful not to misinterpret something that is against obeying man as being against obeying God, then we will see that Paul never taught anyone against obeying God.

My claim was that for roughly 7-15 years after Christ's ascension up until in the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 all Christians were Torah observant Jews, so quoting verses that take about what happened after Acts 10 does not show my claim to be mistaken. Stephen was falsely accused of teaching against the law (Acts 6:13) and Paul was also falsely accused of teaching against the law and took steps at the direction of James to show that he continued to live in accordance with the law (Acts 21:20-24), so if no one was teaching against Torah observance, then that is what they continued to do. If Jewish Christians hadn't continued to be Torah observant, then the problem raised in Acts 15:1 would never have been an issue. However, the problem raised in Acts 15:1 wasn't whether Gentiles should obey God, but whether they needed become circumcised and obey man-made customs in order to be saved, which they rejected.

The Jerusalem Council had no authority to tell Gentiles not to obey God's law, nor did they do so. A rabbi's yoke was the way that he taught to obey God's law, or in other words, his traditions. The yoke that they were referring to in Acts 15:10 was the yoke of the Pharisees, which Jesus was also critical of (Matthew 23:3-4), where they buried people under the weight of their many man-made traditions. In Mark 7:6-13, Jesus was also critical of the Pharisees for setting aside the commands of God to follow their traditions. In Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus wanted people to find rest for their souls by following his yoke or his way of keeping the law, which was a reference to Jeremiah 6:16-19, where God's law is equated with the good way where people will find rest for their souls:

Jeremiah 6:16-19 Thus says the Lord: “Stand by the roads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ 17 I set watchmen over you, saying, ‘Pay attention to the sound of the trumpet!’ But they said, ‘We will not pay attention.’ 18 Therefore hear, O nations, and know, O congregation, what will happen to them. 19 Hear, O earth; behold, I am bringing disaster upon this people, the fruit of their devices, because they have not paid attention to my words; and as for my law, they have rejected it.

So pay attention because if they had been saying that God's law was a burden no one could bear, then they would have in disagreement with God, who said that his law was not too difficult for them (Deuteronomy 30:11-14). Furthermore, 1 John 5:3 says that God's commands are not burdensome. God did not give the law to be a heavy legalistic burden that the Pharisees perverted it into, but rather it was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 10:13) and meant to be received by faith as a delight and a divine privilege (Romans 7:22, Psalms 1:1-2).

In regard to Colossians 2:16, it can be ambiguous just from that verse whether they were being judged for keeping God's holy days or for not keeping them, so we need to look at the surrounding context to determine which is which, primarily at what the views of the people judging them were.

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ.

Paul would never describe God's holy, righteous, and good law as empty deceit or according to human tradition. Christ kept God's law perfectly so it is according to Christ and say that it is not would be pitting the Son against the Father. Paul went into more details about what these elemental spirits are later in the chapter:

Colossians 2:20-23 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

So the Colossians were keeping God's holy days in accordance with His commands and were being judged for keeping them by those who were teaching human precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body. Paul was telling them to obey God rather than man and encouraging them not to let anyone keep them from obeying God. So again, we must be careful not to mistake something that is against obeying man-made traditions as being against obeying God.
 
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Thursday

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This remains ambiguous as Orthodoxy will contend they are the Church and point to Antioch, which was also Peter's. They would claim to be the One fed by all the Apostles.
It is however a much stronger argument than your previous posts, I concur.
The problem is that the early Church from the council of Jerusalem in Acts onward, decided on questions of doctrine by ecumenical councils of all bishops. There is not much evidence in support of Papal superiority beyond a Primus inter pares perspective until the reforms of Gregory VII, itself a reaction to the inappropriate contentokratia and Investiture controversy. This however is after the Great Schism.

That is the way the Catholic Church still does it.

The Orthodox Church cannot do this because the successor of Peter doesn't attend their councils.
 
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Thursday

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The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so if God said to keep the Sabbath and you think man said not to keep the Sabbath, then you should obey God and disregard what man said.

Do you believe Jesus is God?

Mark 2
23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
 
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Soyeong

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Do you believe Jesus is God?

Mark 2
23One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Yes, I believe Jesus is God, but it is central to Christian theology that Jesus was sinless, which means he obeyed God's law perfectly, so if you think that he broke God's law here, then you should think that he was a false Messiah instead of God. However, Jesus never broke the Sabbath, though he did break their traditions for how they thought the Sabbath should be kept.
 
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Thursday

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Yes, I believe Jesus is God, but it is central to Christian theology that Jesus was sinless, which means he obeyed God's law perfectly, so if you think that he broke God's law here, then you should think that he was a false Messiah instead of God. However, Jesus never broke the Sabbath, though he did break their traditions for how they thought the Sabbath should be kept.


I think Jesus is clarifying the spirit of the law whereas some were focused on the letter of the law.

Jesus is pointing out that David broke the Sabbath traditions by eating bread from the temple. He seems to condone this.

I don't think the issue here is obeying the law, but rather understanding the law.
 
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mikpat

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POPE—-Papa, Papas, - father.

Pope denotes the Bishop of Rome, who in virtue of his position as successor of St. Peter, is the chief pastor of the whole Church , the vicar of Christ upon earth. Mat. 16: 17-19.

By the way—Rock = Peter———not stone———-Latin word for stone is "lapidis"

In John 21 Christ speaks to Peter a few times———"Feed my Lambs, tend to my sheep, feed my sheep," which pretty much confirms Mat 16: 17-19.

This was established up until the 16 century when loads of heresies began to rise,,,,,Protestant controversialists. These heresies almost disagreed with all of Christ's wording in the Gospels. Today we have some 30,000 congregations, all claiming to be inspired in some way…….

AMDG
 
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Thursday

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By the way—Rock = Peter———not stone———-Latin word for stone is "lapidis"

In John 21 Christ speaks to Peter a few times———"Feed my Lambs, tend to my sheep, feed my sheep," which pretty much confirms Mat 16: 17-19.

This was established up until the 16 century when loads of heresies began to rise,,,,,Protestant controversialists. These heresies almost disagreed with all of Christ's wording in the Gospels. Today we have some 30,000 congregations, all claiming to be inspired in some way…….

AMDG

Good post.

Also, bear in mind that Jesus spoke Aramaic.

He would have said something like, you are cephas and on this Cephas I will build my Church.

The latin/greek arguments aren't really relevant to what Jesus said.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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POPE—-Papa, Papas, - father.

Pope denotes the Bishop of Rome, who in virtue of his position as successor of St. Peter, is the chief pastor of the whole Church , the vicar of Christ upon earth. Mat. 16: 17-19.

By the way—Rock = Peter———not stone———-Latin word for stone is "lapidis"

In John 21 Christ speaks to Peter a few times———"Feed my Lambs, tend to my sheep, feed my sheep," which pretty much confirms Mat 16: 17-19.

This was established up until the 16 century when loads of heresies began to rise,,,,,Protestant controversialists. These heresies almost disagreed with all of Christ's wording in the Gospels. Today we have some 30,000 congregations, all claiming to be inspired in some way…….

AMDG
Lapis means stone, not lapidis. Unless you mean lapidis in the third declension, but that would still be an incorrect usage in the context. Lapidus means 'stony' or an adjective for 'made of stone'.
In latin, Petra also means stone however, although this was ultimately borrowed from the Greek Petros. Saxum also means stone.

English has rock, stone, pebble, crag, boulder etc. There is such a thing as a synonym.

Just to clarify your latin, as I assume it is rusty.
 
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Teslafied

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POPE—-Papa, Papas, - father.

Pope denotes the Bishop of Rome, who in virtue of his position as successor of St. Peter, is the chief pastor of the whole Church , the vicar of Christ upon earth. Mat. 16: 17-19.

By the way—Rock = Peter———not stone———-Latin word for stone is "lapidis"

In John 21 Christ speaks to Peter a few times———"Feed my Lambs, tend to my sheep, feed my sheep," which pretty much confirms Mat 16: 17-19.

This was established up until the 16 century when loads of heresies began to rise,,,,,Protestant controversialists. These heresies almost disagreed with all of Christ's wording in the Gospels. Today we have some 30,000 congregations, all claiming to be inspired in some way…….

AMDG

Yes He tells Peter to feed His sheep not because Peter is the first pope or the Rock but because Peter had the faith as in he was the first to know the true identity of Christ. Christ is the Rock NOT Peter.
 
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Thursday

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Sorry the church is not Peter, the Pope, or the Catholic Church.

The church is built solely upon Jesus Christ so essentially the first church was NOT the Roman Catholic Church.

Jesus only started one Church. He said that he was building the Church on Peter. You apparently don't believe him.

Which Church do you think is the Church Jesus started?
 
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