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LDS Why do Mormons think all Christians are in apostasy?

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Ironhold

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TOO, TOO funny!

No, this is the truth.

In fact, just a few months back I had to teach some of the posters here on CF what the Athanasean Creed was; even though it was considered a pivotal and foundational Creed once upon a time, a number of folks here had never even heard of it.

Or there have been numerous cases in which a "Good Christian" decided to debate the Bible with me, only to admit that they hadn't actually read the Bible cover-to-cover yet and so were unfamiliar with the very book that they were trying to defend. This is on top of countless incidents in which I had to explain to people the process behind the formation of the Biblical canon. (Mainline Christian ignorance of how the Bible was assembled is so great that when I took non-denominational Bible survey classes at a local college the professor spent the first two weeks just going over this process so that people understood it.)

So yes, it has indeed happened to where we've had to teach Christian history to Christians.
 
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Ironhold

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So odd that Christians base their beliefs upon the bible, yet Mormonism's basis for belief is whatever JS told them--was whatever he believed.

Actually, there's a process in place for determining just what someone actually said, whether or not they were speaking in an official capacity when they said it, and whether or not they were making an official pronouncement if so.

If you'll note, most of the statements you have come from unofficial sources, meaning that the statements either could not be properly vetted or were found to not have the full weight of an official pronouncement.
 
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ToBeLoved

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No, this is the truth.

In fact, just a few months back I had to teach some of the posters here on CF what the Athanasean Creed was; even though it was considered a pivotal and foundational Creed once upon a time, a number of folks here had never even heard of it.

Or there have been numerous cases in which a "Good Christian" decided to debate the Bible with me, only to admit that they hadn't actually read the Bible cover-to-cover yet and so were unfamiliar with the very book that they were trying to defend. This is on top of countless incidents in which I had to explain to people the process behind the formation of the Biblical canon. (Mainline Christian ignorance of how the Bible was assembled is so great that when I took non-denominational Bible survey classes at a local college the professor spent the first two weeks just going over this process so that people understood it.)

So yes, it has indeed happened to where we've had to teach Christian history to Christians.
I think we have educated Mormons quite a bit on what your prophets have said. So I think we are teaching Mormons, Mormonism.

Most people do not claim to have all knowledge. We do not call ourselves prophets and such.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Actually, there's a process in place for determining just what someone actually said, whether or not they were speaking in an official capacity when they said it, and whether or not they were making an official pronouncement if so.

If you'll note, most of the statements you have come from unofficial sources, meaning that the statements either could not be properly vetted or were found to not have the full weight of an official pronouncement.
Well how can one 'officially track' official pronouncement's of constantly changing text? That sounds like a 5,000 piece puzzle and not our faith to even defend. Someone has to desire to put that big of a puzzle together and I don't think most Christians will teach you your own faith although we have taught Mormons much about their own history and faith so far. So maybe. I dunno
 
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ToBeLoved

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All you've done is regurgitate the same tired statements that critics of the church have been regurgitating for decades now.

In short, we already know about them.
But that does not make them untrue.

I feel the same about the regurgitated words critics of the church. Doesn't seem too respectful or nice to call us that for having a different faith than you. And your prophet reformatted and changed the meaning of our Bible and called it different books. Which shows in my opinion Mormonism being an untrue offshoot of Christianity that we do not even call it Christian.

Although in essence I think your church should prove that Christians are in apostasy and even need to be restored. To me that is the big point that has not been shown true at all, IMHO. So, I'm still waiting for that. And I wish that someone would address that as that is the billion dollar question.
 
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tickingclocker

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I feel the same about the regurgitated words critics of the church.

Satan has been regurgitating his same tired, old garbage for centuries. Doesn't make it any less of a lie, no matter what the latest packaging its dressed in. People can still recognize lies when they have no biblical foundation, or try to prove man's words are divine. (Satan's second favorite lie.)

How many times should one repeat themselves? Three? Three hundred? Three billion times? Reminds me of the old punchline to the old question, "What is the definition of insanity?" Doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

Ta-dum dum!:clap::hug:
 
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ToBeLoved

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Do you know what the two emoticons are supposed to represent? There's another one I don't recognize. The "Kawaii"? Excuse me? LOL!!
The 'smiley face' one is the emoticons.

Under that there is "Old CF Smilies" and "Default Smilies", these are the newer one, the "Default".
 
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tickingclocker

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The 'smiley face' one is the emoticons.

Under that there is "Old CF Smilies" and "Default Smilies", these are the newer one, the "Default".

Old CF vs. default smilies? I really am out of the emoticon loop! Give me time and info to catch up!
 
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BigDaddy4

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"But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God:..... and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.... I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels" Isa 61



  • Revelation 16:15
    15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

  • Revelation 3:4
    4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

  • Rev 7
  • 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
If you are going to be so literal with Scripture, then where is your helmet (Eph. 6:17) to accompany your garments?
 
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withwonderingawe

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In Mormon theology accepting Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church may be required in order to make it into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. But there will be Christians who did not accept the LDS Church in the other two kingdoms the Terrestrial and Telestial.

So yes non-Mormon Christians who lived good and godly lives will be in heaven according to Mormon theology.

I think the general assumption is that once we enter the spirit world much of the veil of our understanding will be removed but those who have not accepted Jesus will have to be taught. By the time we reach that finally judgement we will all have a complete knowledge of truth, we will all have received salvation for sins and the rewards given will be based on works. The Hindu woman who learns to love and feed her neighbors will have as much opportunity to enter the Celestial Kingdom as I.

However;
There is this understanding that those who have had the opportunity in this life to accept the gospel with all of it's blessings but rejects it will also reject it in the next life. God will force no one into the Celestial kingdom and that person would not be happy there anyway.
 
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withwonderingawe

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So odd that Christians base their beliefs upon the bible, yet Mormonism's basis for belief is whatever JS told them--was whatever he believed. Whatever their denominational stripe, Christians all point to the bible alone as the basis for their beliefs. If JS had announced that there were originally three moons circling the earth, and Satan destroyed two of them during Noah's Flood--despite nothing in the bible even mentioning such a thing ever happened--(and it would, if that important), Mormons would surely believe such a tale today if Smith had stated it. You know you would. Don't you? Proving your faith is essentially in Smith, and not in God. JS is your scripture. Not Jesus Christ, the One Word of God.

If one of the early Fathers of the Christian Church announced to Christians that there were once three moons circling the earth, and two were destroyed by Satan during Noah's Flood, we would have long ago demanded he prove that--from biblical text. NOT from his imagination or some mysterious "revelation" singularly received. Do you honestly think Christians would have instantly accepted such a notion, just because a respected early Church Father stated it was "truth"? LOL!!! You don't realize how much biblical text matters to Christians then, if so. Since becoming a Christian, I've seen misguided people try to pull the wool over others eyes with their own private scriptural renditions, and be instantly challenged to biblically prove their views (once right in the middle of a service, too)! Shocking! Who can't respect such people who will stand up to unbiblical error? Yay team!

I feel so deeply sorry for those who are taught they cannot depend upon God's Word for life, but must accept every word that Joseph Smith uttered as Gospel instead. What a pity. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is so simple and pure, having no need to add anything further to its perfect beauty. God is love. Jesus is waiting for you with eager, open arms, and no matter what shape you show up in He will welcome you into His truth! Dare to double check with Him if you have been brought to that point thus far, if you are so sure of that faith you claim as being solely in Him. Joseph Smith is dead. Jesus, on the other hand, is still very much alive! What more could we possibly need than Jesus Christ?

I feel so deeply sorry for those who are taught they cannot depend upon God's Word for life, but must accept every word that Joseph Smith uttered as Gospel instead.

I don't accept every word Joseph Smith uttered any more than I accept every word Paul uttered as "Gospel",

1 Corinthians 11:15
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

I cut my hair ever so often, it's curly and obeys no master.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I feel so deeply sorry for those who are taught they cannot depend upon God's Word for life, but must accept every word that Joseph Smith uttered as Gospel instead.

I don't accept every word Joseph Smith uttered any more than I accept every word Paul uttered as "Gospel",

1 Corinthians 11:15
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

I cut my hair ever so often, it's curly and obeys no master.
Not that it matters, per se

But to clarify what Paul is saying in that verse.

That 'covering' of her hair is a protection from God against spirits, not just God's preference for long or short hair.

Again, just a clarification of what Paul said.
 
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Ironhold

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Well how can one 'officially track' official pronouncement's of constantly changing text?

If a work is official, then the copyright information will say "(C) Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" or "(C) Intellectual Reserve".

If you see a copyright from anyone else, it's not official. After all, if it was official, then why would it be printed by a third party?
 
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tickingclocker

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No, this is the truth.

In fact, just a few months back I had to teach some of the posters here on CF what the Athanasean Creed was; even though it was considered a pivotal and foundational Creed once upon a time, a number of folks here had never even heard of it.

Or there have been numerous cases in which a "Good Christian" decided to debate the Bible with me, only to admit that they hadn't actually read the Bible cover-to-cover yet and so were unfamiliar with the very book that they were trying to defend. This is on top of countless incidents in which I had to explain to people the process behind the formation of the Biblical canon. (Mainline Christian ignorance of how the Bible was assembled is so great that when I took non-denominational Bible survey classes at a local college the professor spent the first two weeks just going over this process so that people understood it.)

So yes, it has indeed happened to where we've had to teach Christian history to Christians.

I think we can all agree that within every religion on earth there are those who are not up to date on every point within their religion's history. No matter who they are, whether Mormon or Christian, Jew or Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist, etc, etc. Of course, those new to their faith would still be learning such things. Should we think lesser of them for that earnest fact? And, sadly, we all know there are those lazy 'religionist' of every single stripe, who even faithfully attend 3-hour services, and, yes, do the same of their respective Sunday schools! But when pinned down, cannot answer even the most rudimentary of questions within their faith? To remain honest before the Lord, we all must admit to knowing such people exist in every church. Should we discount their lack of knowledge? No. They are there, when so very many don't bother in this world. It's something! Pray the Lord to make them thirsty for His truth, is all we all can do. True? We cannot admonish someone into the Lord's presence, or demean them into loving their neighbor more. Doesn't work. If done so, they will only offer lip service, and soon learn to avoid their admonisher.

As far as religion classes in colleges go, not all that attend such classes are Christian. It would be foolhardy that anything more should be implied. Especially if the college is not a Christian college, but a local community college with non-Christian professors teaching "religion" classes to a diverse group from bible-believing Christians to non-Christians, to those looking for extra credits alone, as is so often the case nowadays. Even the rare earnest Christian Professor must contend with students who have no real interest in the subject but to use it to graduate. Not all Mormon students in BYU know their own church's history, not all Protestants in Oral Roberts U. know theirs, not all Catholics attending St. Mary's knows their very long history either. (When such a rich religious history stretches back to Jesus teaching simple men next to a lake about loving their neighbors? Imagine being Jewish, how many thousands of years of history and culture there is to learn, especially if EVERYTHING was determined as 'critical' to their faith!) Thank the Lord that Jesus said the only thing critical to the Christian's faith is--Him and love! So simple a child can know it.

How sad a world we live in, when God becomes nothing more than a vehicle for education, elevated above love or genuine human kindness for one another. Not all are willing to learn how to love one another--and it is a learning process. Isn't it? (Maybe why the Lord so humbly referred to it as "'practice' these things I have shown you?") Mormons have learned of their own history from Christians. Christians have learned of their history from Jews. Muslims have learned of their own history from Jews. Jews have learned... we all get the picture. Learning goes on, as it should. But the Lord remains above our puny attempts at "knowledge", thankfully. So I think we can all agree, again, that it's a lifelong learning process when it comes to God and His Word! And what a joy that is! Where one can never crow (with any actual humility) that they know it all, preening, "Ah HA! I have more religious knowledge than you do!"

"Oh, really?"... replies our All-Knowing Lord. "And what was that My son, Paul, once referred to as consisting of nothing more than 'clanging symbols and noisy gongs?'" From which famous chapter is that from?"

Yes, Lord. Learning to love can never end. Spot on. As always.

Now if someone would kindly tell me what the "Kawaii, tutu, and Ebil" emoticons mean, I would appreciate it. Thank you and God bless.
 
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