LDS Why do Mormons think all Christians are in apostasy?

[mmksparbud]

I can accept the obvious---it's the totally missing, not there, in any way that I can't accept!!! What's sad is that people accept this contrary to the whole plan of salvation and what the bible clearly does say!! Bishops, elders, deacons---all with one wife--any having more than that would not be allowed to be a deacon, elder, or bishop--which means those first Mormons with more than one wife, would not have been eligible. And that certainly should have been obvious!!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Ya mean you need the words "And he ordained twelve to the Melchezedek Priesthood” in order for you to accept the obvious?

That’s really really sad.

It's not sad at all, when you consider it is Jesus Christ's priesthood. I'd like to see the verses too

 

[ToBeLoved]

I can accept the obvious---it's the totally missing, not there, in any way that I can't accept!!! What's sad is that people accept this contrary to the whole plan of salvation and what the bible clearly does say!! Bishops, elders, deacons---all with one wife--any having more than that would not be allowed to be a deacon, elder, or bishop--which means those first Mormons with more than one wife, would not have been eligible. And that certainly should have been obvious!!

Did you forget the 2,000 year old Dead Sea Scrolls preserved perfectly by God Himself? In the original languages of Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic?

I might add that, how great is our God. Good job sister!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Feeling like this thread is almost done. Not proven at all. (see topic).

I'm very, very happy right now. Thank you Jesus! Truth prevails.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I can accept the obvious---it's the totally missing, not there, in any way that I can't accept!!! What's sad is that people accept this contrary to the whole plan of salvation and what the bible clearly does say!! Bishops, elders, deacons---all with one wife--any having more than that would not be allowed to be a deacon, elder, or bishop--which means those first Mormons with more than one wife, would not have been eligible. And that certainly should have been obvious!!

From the Book of Mormon, Jacob 2
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none....For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Different dispensation with a different plan, Abraham and Jacob had plural wives in order to bring about the promise to Abraham that his seed would be as many as the stars of heaven.

In the New Testament there was going to be an apostasy the church was going to disappear there was no need 'to raise up seed unto me'

In Joseph's and BY's time we needed "to raise up seed", someone did a research paper which showed the bulk of our missionaries have come from those few founding fathers and their wives, this includes my own husband.

 

[ToBeLoved]

From the Book of Mormon, Jacob 2
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none....For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Different dispensation with a different plan, Abraham and Jacob had plural wives in order to bring about the promise to Abraham that his seed would be as many as the stars of heaven.

In the New Testament there was going to be an apostasy the church was going to disappear there was no need 'to raise up seed unto me'

In Joseph's and BY's time we needed "to raise up seed", someone did a research paper which showed the bulk of our missionaries have come from those few founding fathers and their wives, this includes my own husband.

You are quoting the BOM to us?

 

[withwonderingawe]

You are quoting the BOM to us?

so tell me why did God let Abraham have more than one wife and Jacob with his four? Why?

And why did they have to give the rules about having more than one wife if it wasn't part of their culture already?

 

[John Davidson]

That is not what the LDS site says. It says that one must believe that JS is a prophet and that the LDS is the only true church.

I wish you would stop misrepresenting your faith. The LDS is trying to 'Christianize' themselves to seem more palpable, but the information is already out there and I am not fooled.

ToBeLoved you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what LDS believe. Joseph Smith taught that there were 4 possible destinies for the soul after death. They are the "Celestial Kingdom", the "Terrestrial Kingdom", the "Telestial Kingdom", and "Outer Darkness". The Celestial Kingdom also has 3 levels.

So to answer your question, yes in Mormon belief non-Mormons can go to heaven. But they may not go to the highest level of heaven.

 

[ToBeLoved]

ToBeLoved you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what LDS believe. Joseph Smith taught that there were 4 possible destinies for the soul after death. They are the "Celestial Kingdom", the "Terrestrial Kingdom", the "Telestial Kingdom", and "Outer Darkness". The Celestial Kingdom also has 3 levels.

So to answer your question, yes in Mormon belief non-Mormons can go to heaven. But they may not go to the highest level of heaven.

My understanding is that like the Baptism for the Dead, JS will be at the judgment and one must accept the Mormon church as the true church? Like the Terrestrial Kingdom or the Telestiall Kingdom.

 

[mmksparbud]

so tell me why did God let Abraham have more than one wife and Jacob with his four? Why?

And why did they have to give the rules about having more than one wife if it wasn't part of their culture already?

God also allowed brothers and sisters to marry---Abraham was married to his half sister. There came a time when that had to end. There came a time when plural wives had to end. God does not go backwards and forwards and backwards and forwards--only forwards. He has never gone back and said, "It's ok now to marry your sisters and brothers because I need more people!" And he never said---Have more than one wife because I need more people----you keep bringing up the fact that whatever the disciples bound on earth it was bound in heaven--well---they said one wife--and that is that.

Different dispensation with a different plan,

Well, this is the new plan--no more plural wives. And it was said before your so called apostasy.

 

[ToBeLoved]

so tell me why did God let Abraham have more than one wife and Jacob with his four? Why?

And why did they have to give the rules about having more than one wife if it wasn't part of their culture already?

God does not specifically say in the Bible, but this is my own theory.

Back in those days only men went to war. Entire armies of men were killed in a battle or multiple battles. I think that there were many more women because they lost their men in battle. Women couldn't inherit, only men. Otherwise women would be destitute and homeless with no inheritance because women could not inherit. Some battles in the OT say like 10,000 men were killed. That's a lot. Boys as young as 10 went to battle, so they could wipe out all the men for generations.

My other thought is God said be fruitful and multiply. Since their DNA was so pure, I don't think they had all the hereditary DNA issues that a brother and sister would have now.

That;s my two theories, but I don't know. I think #1 is more feasible with what I know of the OT times.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Different dispensation with a different plan, Abraham and Jacob had plural wives in order to bring about the promise to Abraham that his seed would be as many as the stars of heaven.

There is no updated plan as far as your God is concerned or should I say gods.

Maybe your god is all into it, mine is not. Paul said in the NT what a church leader should be like. The husband of one wife. That's the plan.

OT to NT, updated plan.

 

[Ironhold]

"One day, while having a conversation, we spoke about how Afrikaaners have so many parallels to Mormon history. The great trek and the mormon pioneers, the devotion to religion, family, being pioneers in a hostile land. Both Afrikaaner calvinists and Mormons have similar religious beliefs regarding the curse of Ham, although the Mormons downplay it. My friend, Trevor, made an arguement that he would like to see all Afrikaaners and white South Africans in general convert to the LDS church. He said, when white people stick together, like the Mormons do, and we help each other out, we lift each other up, we take care of and grow our families we do better as a race. And while I am not Mormon or even Christian, I have to agree. I've met some awesome Dutch reformed people, in fact I live less than 2 blocks from a Dutch reformed church here in Montréal. But if Afrikaaner nationalists and white South Africans want to survive, fight back, grow and take back the country y'all built. Perhaps y'all should all become Mormon. Theological debates aside, I find the Mormons to be the most pro-white of ALL denominations/religious communities.


https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t778308/


Stormfront.org is a disgusting white supremacist site

...and if that guy's bishop finds out he's posting on it he'll probably be in a fair bit of trouble.

 

[Jutta2]

Jesus ordained his apostles to the priesthood

Mark 3
"14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

Matt 16
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Acts 8
Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

Nowhere in the Bible, and it does not matter which translation you take, is that the disciples / apostles were given the Melchizedek Priesthood, or even the Aaronic Priesthood. This is an LDS invention. Reading these verses in the original Greek, it is clear that they should all be missionaries. Incidentally, in the early church women had this "priesthood"; were missionaries or deacons, were bishops or apostles.

 

[John Davidson]

My understanding is that like the Baptism for the Dead, JS will be at the judgment and one must accept the Mormon church as the true church?

In Mormon theology accepting Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church may be required in order to make it into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. But there will be Christians who did not accept the LDS Church in the other two kingdoms the Terrestrial and Telestial.

So yes non-Mormon Christians who lived good and godly lives will be in heaven according to Mormon theology.

 

[ToBeLoved]

In Mormon theology accepting Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church may be required in order to make it into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. But there will be Christians who did not accept the LDS Church in the other two kingdoms the Terrestrial and Telestial.

So yes non-Mormon Christians who lived good and godly lives will be in heaven according to Mormon theology.

Luckily the blood of Christ atones for all my sin. I am who Jesus Christ says I am.

 

[ToBeLoved]

<staff edit>
That sounds not Biblical.

Judges 6:17
Verse Concepts
So Gideon said to Him, "If now I have found favor in Your sight, then show me a sign that it is You who speak with me.

Isaiah 38:22
Then Hezekiah had said, "What is the sign that I shall go up to the house of the LORD?"

Matthew 16:1-4
The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven. But He replied to them, "When it is evening, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.' "And in the morning, 'There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.' Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times? read more.

Mark 8:11-12
The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him. Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said, "Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation."

Matthew 12:38-39
Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;

Luke 11:29
As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah.

Luke 11:16
Others, to test Him, were demanding of Him a sign from heaven.

 

[tickingclocker]

Statements like that tend to make Mormons rather annoyed, especially since we're the ones who most often have to teach Christian history to mainline Christians.

TOO, TOO funny!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Nowhere in the Bible, and it does not matter which translation you take, is that the disciples / apostles were given the Melchizedek Priesthood, or even the Aaronic Priesthood. This is an LDS invention. Reading these verses in the original Greek, it is clear that they should all be missionaries. Incidentally, in the early church women had this "priesthood"; were missionaries or deacons, were bishops or apostles.

Hence, Hebrews in America. Proven false. What's that book that was in circulation by that guy that lived in Hyrum Smith's town, very close to where JS lived? Is it View of the Hebrews?

 

[tickingclocker]

... But how can one not fault/disagree with a belief that is different from their own? If we are being truthful? Personal belief is not separate from our view of what is true. Isn't that what free-will is? or is there another definition of this or any other premise that I do not understand fully?

So odd that Christians base their beliefs upon the bible, yet Mormonism's basis for belief is whatever JS told them--was whatever he believed. Whatever their denominational stripe, Christians all point to the bible alone as the basis for their beliefs. If JS had announced that there were originally three moons circling the earth, and Satan destroyed two of them during Noah's Flood--despite nothing in the bible even mentioning such a thing ever happened--(and it would, if that important), Mormons would surely believe such a tale today if Smith had stated it. You know you would. Don't you? Proving your faith is essentially in Smith, and not in God. JS is your scripture. Not Jesus Christ, the One Word of God.

If one of the early Fathers of the Christian Church announced to Christians that there were once three moons circling the earth, and two were destroyed by Satan during Noah's Flood, we would have long ago demanded he prove that--from biblical text. NOT from his imagination or some mysterious "revelation" singularly received. Do you honestly think Christians would have instantly accepted such a notion, just because a respected early Church Father stated it was "truth"? LOL!!! You don't realize how much biblical text matters to Christians then, if so. Since becoming a Christian, I've seen misguided people try to pull the wool over others eyes with their own private scriptural renditions, and be instantly challenged to biblically prove their views (once right in the middle of a service, too)! Shocking! Who can't respect such people who will stand up to unbiblical error? Yay team!

I feel so deeply sorry for those who are taught they cannot depend upon God's Word for life, but must accept every word that Joseph Smith uttered as Gospel instead. What a pity. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is so simple and pure, having no need to add anything further to its perfect beauty. God is love. Jesus is waiting for you with eager, open arms, and no matter what shape you show up in He will welcome you into His truth! Dare to double check with Him if you have been brought to that point thus far, if you are so sure of that faith you claim as being solely in Him. Joseph Smith is dead. Jesus, on the other hand, is still very much alive! What more could we possibly need than Jesus Christ?