Miracles Cannot Violate Natural Law

[JacksBratt]

You may have managed to convince yourself, (which is after all the object of the exercise) but I don't think you have convinced anyone else.
You have it wrong, I don't want to steal anyone's lunch money I want to tell them they don't need to pay for their lunch.

What am I trying to convince anyone of again?

 

[JacksBratt]

I think this is the first time I have ever seen a Christian write that their belief was just their 'opinion', good for you, you are free to have your own opinions but you are not free to have your own facts. thank you Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

You are so generous. Wasn't it you that gave me permission to have my own beliefs before? Yep..... here its is:

Please forget I even asked you any questions and believe whatever you want to believe, it's was never my intensions to upset you.

Now, you are giving me the freedom to "have your own opinions". Really, you are too kind.

Thank you Biff Tannen.

Many Christians will state that it is their opinion. It's people like you, who have all the answers and are locked in a world where everything is a fact accepted by "everybody" who is as intelligent as they are. Anyone who disagrees with said fact is a fool. Anything observed, outside the acceptable or explainable, is a lie or there must be something missing.


So, sorry to pop your narcissistic bubble, however, that was not a request, to you, to have my opinion. It's just that in the past, posters will attack the content of someone else's post stating that it is that persons "opinion" or "interpretation" of the scripture. As a result, I have a habit of stating that my posts are "my opinion", in attempts to avoid that knee jerk retort to my posts.

As an aside, how am I supposed to "forget I even asked you any questions" if you keep the questions coming?

And..........try to ask questions in a manner that help the person you are questioning to give you the information you are looking for..... Don't ask "what color is your car"? If you want to know the manufacturer.

 

[Jay Follett]

Many Christians will state that it is their opinion.

No they do not, they state that they know for a fact that their God exists, (ask them) facts apply to everyone, your opinion applies only to you.

 

[Jay Follett]

So, sorry to pop your narcissistic bubble, however, that was not a request, to you, to have my opinion. It's just that in the past, posters will attack the content of someone else's post stating that it is that persons "opinion" or "interpretation" of the scripture. As a result, I have a habit of stating that my posts are "my opinion", in attempts to avoid that knee jerk retort to my posts.

In truth then you believe the existence of your God is a fact and not just your opinion?

 

[JacksBratt]

No they do not, they state that they know for a fact that their God exists, (ask them) facts apply to everyone, your opinion applies only to you.

You really need to get your facts straight.

I said that "in my opinion" Jesus' miracles are supernatural.

I will state, also, "I know for a fact that my God exists".

It's all in the details, Jason.

 

[JacksBratt]

In truth then you believe the existence of your God is a fact and not just your opinion?

really? You still aren't getting it. You are comparing two different things here.

My interpretation of the scriptures and those of another christian, may differ. That's why I say IMO.

We had not yet delved into the concept of the existence, or non existence, of God. That is a whole new issue.

For that, I suggest you start a new thread.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I don't know that the pasteurization is necessary for good wine. Have you ever made wine? It is really quite simple. The grapes are the important part as they have the yeast on their skin, naturally, you don't have to add the yeast. Each different strain of grape has different yeast type. These different strains of yeast are the huge proprietary issue and the different strains were identified, cultured and have been cultured for 100's or 1000's of years.

When you get into trouble is when fruit flies come around. With out being careful, these pesky little things will cause your alcohol to turn to vinegar. Then you're done.


My father in law showed us how he made wine with Ontario wild grapes. All we added was some water to the mashed grapes. The yeast is wild yeast, on the grapes themselves. If you want, you can add more sugar. This gives the yeast more food and as a result your wine is a higher alcohol level. When the alcohol level gets too high, or the sugar runs out, the yeast die and fermentation stops. Some yeast are tolerant of higher alcohol levels than others too.

Any left over sugar will cause the wine to be sweeter. Anytime I have made wine, I use a hygrometer, which allows me to track the sugar content and approximate % alcohol level based on the beginning sugar content. Usually, all the sugar is consumed.

Yeah, they had no such hygrometers, and the left over sugar would also cause the wine to spoil faster, and they didn't know flies carrying germs could make it bitter. Heck, having wine accidentally become like vinegar was the reason pasteurization was developed in the first place; people were sick and tired of going through all the effort to make wine, only to have a large portion of it turn out wrong. And this was the mid 1800s.

Obviously, wine worth drinking was made before that point, it is just that a significant amount of attempts at wine making, even by people that had done so for generations, had a lot of their wine become wasted effort.

 

[Jay Follett]

really? You still aren't getting it. You are comparing two different things here.

One you know to be a fact then but the other might not be, am I getting warmer?

 

[JacksBratt]

One you know to be a fact then but the other might not be, am I getting warmer?

Not yet.

One...... "supernatural" things are events that defy the laws of nature. Or attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature. If you are lucky enough to observe or witness one of these events, it will be definable by that definition.

The Other...... Proof of God....... I cannot give. Nor can anyone. Also, you cannot prove that God does not exist. It's a fruitless argument.

So, I cannot prove God to you. That does not mean that I know for a fact that He exists.

Just think of this example. A normal guy is standing outside a french fry hut or chip truck. Bill Murry, the "Ground Hog Day and Ghost Busters guy, comes up, takes one of the guys fries, dips it in ketchup and eats it. Then, as he leaves, he turns to the guy and says "nobody will believe you"....

Understand?

 

[Jay Follett]

One...... "supernatural" things are events that defy the laws of nature. Or attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature. If you are lucky enough to observe or witness one of these events, it will be definable by that definition.

And we are back to the start again....... How would I know I had just witnessed a "supernatural" event?
If what I witnessed had defied the laws of nature I would think I had gone mad, and rightly so.
You however because you say it happens often would take it all in your stride which can only tell me one thing.

The Other...... Proof of God....... I cannot give. Nor can anyone. Also, you cannot prove that God does not exist. It's a fruitless argument.
So, I cannot prove God to you. That does not mean that I know for a fact that He exists.
Just think of this example. A normal guy is standing outside a french fry hut or chip truck. Bill Murry, the "Ground Hog Day and Ghost Busters guy, comes up, takes one of the guys fries, dips it in ketchup and eats it. Then, as he leaves, he turns to the guy and says "nobody will believe you"....
Understand?

No I don't understand because the fries episode could have happened but the other things can not.

 

[JacksBratt]

And we are back to the start again....... How would I know I had just witnessed a "supernatural" event?

You won't. You won't even have a sniff that it even occurred. It could happen right in front of you and you will be like "Wha?"

This is because your heart is so determined that there is no such thing, you believe that there is no such thing. It' so sad.

If what I witnessed had defied the laws of nature I would think I had gone mad, and rightly so.

Really? That's your take on this? You would see something, it would not compute with your opinion of reality and your mind would just melt down? I'm still going with my belief that you wouldn't even be aware that it happened.

What would you do, say, if you were driving in a strange big city, you know some megalopolis city with gangs and bad areas of town. You get lost, ok, and end up in the deep gangland. You come to a stop light and gang members come over to your car, yank you out and then, all of a sudden, they look in the passenger seat and get freaked and run away.
Now, the next day, your in a mall in the same city and one of the guys that was going to mug you approaches you. He holds up his hand to indicate that he is not going to hurt you. He says "I just recognized you from across the mall and I had to ask, who was that huge dude with a body bigger than Arnold Schwarzenegger in your car, Man he glowed white and when he told us to run.... we did. Who was that guy, what was that guy..."
Meanwhile your like "wha".....Nope, you wouldn't even get it. Then finish your piece of pizza and go to a movie.

This is not an exact true story. However, people traveling in dangerous areas, all alone, have had others mention to them later that they meant to harm them but their body guard was too big, or something to that nature...

You however because you say it happens often would take it all in your stride which can only tell me one thing.

Ahh come on man, don't leave me hang'n here....what is the one thing it would tell you?

No I don't understand because the fries episode could have happened but the other things can not.

Prove it could happen. Prove that any actor could walk up and eat some random strangers food.

And, what other things are we talking about? The supernatural things or the God existing thing? Remember? Details are key here.

 

[Jay Follett]

You won't. You won't even have a sniff that it even occurred. It could happen right in front of you and you will be like "Wha?"
This is because your heart is so determined that there is no such thing, you believe that there is no such thing. It' so sad.
Really? That's your take on this? You would see something, it would not compute with your opinion of reality and your mind would just melt down? I'm still going with my belief that you wouldn't even be aware that it happened.

What would you do, say, if you were driving in a strange big city, you know some megalopolis city with gangs and bad areas of town. You get lost, ok, and end up in the deep gangland. You come to a stop light and gang members come over to your car, yank you out and then, all of a sudden, they look in the passenger seat and get freaked and run away.
Now, the next day, your in a mall in the same city and one of the guys that was going to mug you approaches you. He holds up his hand to indicate that he is not going to hurt you. He says "I just recognized you from across the mall and I had to ask, who was that huge dude with a body bigger than Arnold Schwarzenegger in your car, Man he glowed white and when he told us to run.... we did. Who was that guy, what was that guy..."
Meanwhile your like "wha".....Nope, you wouldn't even get it. Then finish your piece of pizza and go to a movie.

This is not an exact true story. However, people traveling in dangerous areas, all alone, have had others mention to them later that they meant to harm them but their body guard was too big, or something to that nature...

Ahh come on man, don't leave me hang'n here....what is the one thing it would tell you?
Prove it could happen. Prove that any actor could walk up and eat some random strangers food.

And, what other things are we talking about? The supernatural things or the God existing thing? Remember? Details are key here.

You really do live in a dream world of your own making don't you?

 

[JacksBratt]

You really do live in a dream world of your own making don't you?

That's a pretty vague statement. Is it supposed to have a point? Is it based on something I said or just that you don't posses the ability to answer my post with an intelligent response?

Posts like this run a very close parallel to a child on the playground shouting to another child "your ugly", when they are lost for words.

 

[Jay Follett]

That's a pretty vague statement. Is it supposed to have a point? Is it based on something I said or just that you don't posses the ability to answer my post with an intelligent response?
Posts like this run a very close parallel to a child on the playground shouting to another child "your ugly", when they are lost for words.

It means that you make statements without any thoughts of reality, it's like me telling you a joke about a man in a swimming pool on the moon without telling you how any of it got there, I expect you to just accept that it's all there, while the joke would be nonsense you firmly believe everything you say and for you the nonsense you speak of is real and true, that's what I mean when I say you live in a dream world.

 

[PsychoSarah]

It means that you make statements without any thoughts of reality, it's like me telling you a joke about a man in a swimming pool on the moon without telling you how any of it got there, I expect you to just accept that it's all there, while the joke would be nonsense you firmly believe everything you say and for you the nonsense you speak of is real and true, that's what I mean when I say you live in a dream world.

For the sake of intelligent debates, can you stop being so blunt and insulting? All you accomplish by doing this is making yourself look like a jerk, and worse, confirming atheist stereotypes that make people less willing to be polite to us. You are a part of the problem of these debates being filled with ad hominems and off topic garbage. You certainly aren't better than the creationists you debate against; in fact, I am amazed at how many have kept their cool despite your vitriol.

 

[JacksBratt]

For the sake of intelligent debates, can you stop being so blunt and insulting? All you accomplish by doing this is making yourself look like a jerk, and worse, confirming atheist stereotypes that make people less willing to be polite to us. You are a part of the problem of these debates being filled with ad hominems and off topic garbage. You certainly aren't better than the creationists you debate against; in fact, I am amazed at how many have kept their cool despite your vitriol.

Thank you Sarah.

 

[JacksBratt]

It means that you make statements without any thoughts of reality, it's like me telling you a joke about a man in a swimming pool on the moon without telling you how any of it got there, I expect you to just accept that it's all there, while the joke would be nonsense you firmly believe everything you say and for you the nonsense you speak of is real and true, that's what I mean when I say you live in a dream world.

Again, no point, no direction, no substance. Just another rant.

I am sorry that you cannot understand my beliefs or the reasoning behind them.

I find no point in conversing with you any further on this topic.

Ciao

 

[PsychoSarah]

Thank you Sarah.

Don't mention it; it's people like him that make others feel justified in throwing rocks at me for being an atheist (which has actually happened before, but thankfully not recently). For a guy that claims to be really into science, Jay doesn't seem to care that psychology experiments have demonstrated time and again that people are far less willing to acknowledge the arguments of someone that insults them as valid, and most of the time he insults people, he isn't even addressing the topic.

I've told him off before, and I suspect I will end up doing it again in more threads in the future, until his insults get him banned.

 

[Hieronymus]

Miracles violate natural laws by definition.
Hence "super-natural".
(sorry, hit and run comment...)

 

[Jay Follett]

For the sake of intelligent debates, can you stop being so blunt and insulting? All you accomplish by doing this is making yourself look like a jerk, and worse, confirming atheist stereotypes that make people less willing to be polite to us. You are a part of the problem of these debates being filled with ad hominems and off topic garbage. You certainly aren't better than the creationists you debate against; in fact, I am amazed at how many have kept their cool despite your vitriol.

I called what he believe nonsense and you call that vitriol? what was I supposed to call what he believed? the truth? if you think someone is wrong you say they are wrong you don't beat about the bush.
Religions have been given the benefit of the doubt for too long, it's time people who believed things for no good reason were called on it and asked questions, if someone thought thunder was Thor using his hammer people would laugh in their face, this is no different.