LDS Why do Mormons think all Christians are in apostasy?

[Jutta2]

Excommunication does not mean son of perdition

From a fatgirl (me) to fatboys,

The Bishop told my uncle / aunt saying that he was high priest in the stake that he has married in the temple, that he much about the (LDS) Gospel knows and still wants to leave the church. What was a completely false rendition, because my aunt did not want to leave the church, they wanted to live as a woman in the church. And that denied her the so-called LDS Church.

 

[Jutta2]

Then he was wrong

Mormons believe that their leaders received through the Holy Ghost revelations from God for their duties. If it is wrong, then God has slept? I do not think so. Or is it not more likely that the bishop has reproduced what he himself believed, because it was taught until 2002 in the LDS?

 

[Jutta2]

There are many levels in each kingdom. It is the highest level of the celestial kingdom or as you put it level 1. Family members have to be on the same wave length to be together.

LDS women can only enter into the highest level of the celestial kingdom, if they are obey to church leaders and their husbands/fathers. That's old fashioned.

 

[Jutta2]

Where are you getting your history from?

As a child I was very interested in history. And especially in US history. In the Church, we learned the church history know only from perspective of the Church. However, I took the liberty to use other sources to get as complete a picture of history. For this, I was often criticized within the church, and I was threatened that I would lose all the blessings of LDS Gospel if I did not stop with. I did not, and websites visited by former Mormons, non-Mormons, and non-Mormon historians. And so my image has been completed. As for the Mountain Meadows Massacre: I read the eyewitness account of one of the 17 surviving children of the massacre. She told how Mormons their parents murdered, and in Cedar City valuables their parents were auctioned in tithing office of the bishop. As she came to the family of the murderer of her parents, and there she was hidden, and lousy treated until she was handed over upon payment of a ransom to relatives of her parents. This is proven!

 

[Jutta2]

Why don't you start a Mountain Meadows massacre thread.

My English isn't good enough for that.

 

[Jutta2]

Alcohol is not permitted as a Mormon? But Jesus drank wine!

And he talk also with drunk folks.

 

[Jutta2]

The church was actually fighting the polygamy laws in the courts up until the 1890s, and so continued the practice because they regarded the laws against it as clear violation of the Constitution.

Polygamy was banned in the States of the Union as well as in the states of the South (in JS times). Why the Mormons moved so in today's Utah, which belonged to Mexico at that time. But since polygamy was forbidden, although the white men turned a blind eye silently know when a (white) man had several indian or black women to wife. Only, a white woman, was banned. The Mormons were trying to legalize polygamy, but met with fierce resistance legitimate government and of the US population. They brought a the Edmonds-Tucker Act that the Church would have taken most of the possession and the active and passive voting rights. And suddenly it was possible that the Mormons, the US government submitted. And to justify the divine, immediately had a "revelation" comes.

This isn't something that people like talking about, as it destroys the narrative of the church being a "renegade" organization.

The Mormons have many years entered the government and the laws under foot. On behalf of the Mormon leaders were Mormons as non-Mormons and former Mormons murdered, castrated, beaten, put their houses on fire, robbed them, and denied everything before the state authorities. They've been RENGATES!

 

[Jutta2]

Do you have documentation for that?

I heard today, that Mormons think Jesus had three wives. Is this true?

More than three. Here an interesting quote:

Celsus was a heathen philosopher; and what does he say upon the subject of Christ and his Apostles.... He says, "The grand reason why the Gentiles and philosophers of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was, because he had so many wives; there were Elizabeth, and Mary, and a host of others that followed him." ...
The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based on polygamy.... A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus, and his followers. We might almost think they were "Mormons" (Jedediah M. Grant, second counselor to Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp.345-46).

Or this one:

It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; ... no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha, and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the least of it.
I will venture to say that if Jesus Christ were now to pass through the most pious countries in Christendom with a train of women, such as used to follow him, ... he would be mobbed, tarred, and feathered, and rode not on an ass, but on a rail....
At this doctrine the long-faced hypocrite and the sanctimonious bigot will probably cry, blasphemy! ... Object not, therefore, too strongly against the marriage of Christ ... (Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp.259-60).

And here is ma favorite quote:

I discover that some of the Eastern papers represent me as a great blasphemer, because I said, in my lecture on Marriage, at our last Conference, that Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children.
All that I have to say in reply to that charge is this—they worship a Savior that is too pure and holy to fulfill the commands of his Father. I worship one that is just pure and holy enough "to fulfill all righteousness;" not only the righteous law of baptism, but the still more righteous and important law "to multiply and replenish the earth" (Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.210).

And Orson Pratt wrote:

We have now clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His first Born, and another being upon the earth by whom He begat the tabernacle of Jesus, as his only begotten in this world. We have also proved most clearly that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings' daughters and many honorable wives were to be married. We have also proved that both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in time; ... it would be so shocking to the modesty of the very pious ladies of Christendom to see Abraham and his wives, Jacob and his wives, Jesus and his honorable wives, all eating occasionally at the same table, ... If you do not want your morals corrupted, and your delicate ears shocked and your pious modesty put to the blush by the society of polygamists and their wives, do not venture near the New Earth; for polygamists will be honored there, and will be among the chief rulers in that Kingdom (The Seer, p.172-173).

To me it is clear: Mormons believed, that God and Jesus were polygamists.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Just because it always existed doesn't mean that people actually had it.

Kinda like having a whole slew of VHS tapes but not having a working player.

I don't buy that.

 

[ToBeLoved]

More than three. Here an interesting quote:

Celsus was a heathen philosopher; and what does he say upon the subject of Christ and his Apostles.... He says, "The grand reason why the Gentiles and philosophers of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was, because he had so many wives; there were Elizabeth, and Mary, and a host of others that followed him." ...
The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based on polygamy.... A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus, and his followers. We might almost think they were "Mormons" (Jedediah M. Grant, second counselor to Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp.345-46).

Or this one:

It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; ... no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha, and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the least of it.
I will venture to say that if Jesus Christ were now to pass through the most pious countries in Christendom with a train of women, such as used to follow him, ... he would be mobbed, tarred, and feathered, and rode not on an ass, but on a rail....
At this doctrine the long-faced hypocrite and the sanctimonious bigot will probably cry, blasphemy! ... Object not, therefore, too strongly against the marriage of Christ ... (Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp.259-60).

And here is ma favorite quote:

I discover that some of the Eastern papers represent me as a great blasphemer, because I said, in my lecture on Marriage, at our last Conference, that Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children.
All that I have to say in reply to that charge is this—they worship a Savior that is too pure and holy to fulfill the commands of his Father. I worship one that is just pure and holy enough "to fulfill all righteousness;" not only the righteous law of baptism, but the still more righteous and important law "to multiply and replenish the earth" (Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.210).

And Orson Pratt wrote:

We have now clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His first Born, and another being upon the earth by whom He begat the tabernacle of Jesus, as his only begotten in this world. We have also proved most clearly that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings' daughters and many honorable wives were to be married. We have also proved that both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in time; ... it would be so shocking to the modesty of the very pious ladies of Christendom to see Abraham and his wives, Jacob and his wives, Jesus and his honorable wives, all eating occasionally at the same table, ... If you do not want your morals corrupted, and your delicate ears shocked and your pious modesty put to the blush by the society of polygamists and their wives, do not venture near the New Earth; for polygamists will be honored there, and will be among the chief rulers in that Kingdom (The Seer, p.172-173).

To me it is clear: Mormons believed, that God and Jesus were polygamists.

It's so far from the Bible that it is another Jesus. They describe Christians as sanctimonious, how sanctimonious is it to change all of scripture in meaning and intent and then say Christians went into apostasy, but that's ok because the Christian church flourished throughout that time, so the Mormons can buy all of the lies. If they do not seek truth, then they will not find it.

And further be sanctimonious enough to call their religion, with another Christ "restored Christianity". That is such a slap in the faith to our Savior and Christians.

 

[mmksparbud]

God and Jesus are polygamists??????---Is this for real???? Is this an offshoot sect of Mormons??? I am stunned.

 

[fatboys]

From a fatgirl (me) to fatboys,

The Bishop told my uncle / aunt saying that he was high priest in the stake that he has married in the temple, that he much about the (LDS) Gospel knows and still wants to leave the church. What was a completely false rendition, because my aunt did not want to leave the church, they wanted to live as a woman in the church. And that denied her the so-called LDS Church.

That I understand. All of us have weaknesses and faults that we are born with. Your uncle has his and even though he was married a and a high priest he still does not qualify for outer darkness. But our bodies are temples of God and we should not damage them. If he thinks he should have been a woman that will be taken into account at the judgement. As far as the church is concerned he desiccated his body. He will and should be exed. He can still go to church and participate but I'm afraid people will feel uncomfortable around him.

 

[fatboys]

God and Jesus are polygamists??????---Is this for real???? Is this an offshoot sect of Mormons??? I am stunned.

The church has no opinion on this but they did call Jesus rabbi

 

[fatboys]

As a child I was very interested in history. And especially in US history. In the Church, we learned the church history know only from perspective of the Church. However, I took the liberty to use other sources to get as complete a picture of history. For this, I was often criticized within the church, and I was threatened that I would lose all the blessings of LDS Gospel if I did not stop with. I did not, and websites visited by former Mormons, non-Mormons, and non-Mormon historians. And so my image has been completed. As for the Mountain Meadows Massacre: I read the eyewitness account of one of the 17 surviving children of the massacre. She told how Mormons their parents murdered, and in Cedar City valuables their parents were auctioned in tithing office of the bishop. As she came to the family of the murderer of her parents, and there she was hidden, and lousy treated until she was handed over upon payment of a ransom to relatives of her parents. This is proven!

I don't think so

 

[fatboys]

More than three. Here an interesting quote:

Celsus was a heathen philosopher; and what does he say upon the subject of Christ and his Apostles.... He says, "The grand reason why the Gentiles and philosophers of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was, because he had so many wives; there were Elizabeth, and Mary, and a host of others that followed him." ...
The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based on polygamy.... A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus, and his followers. We might almost think they were "Mormons" (Jedediah M. Grant, second counselor to Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp.345-46).

Or this one:

It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; ... no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha, and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the least of it.
I will venture to say that if Jesus Christ were now to pass through the most pious countries in Christendom with a train of women, such as used to follow him, ... he would be mobbed, tarred, and feathered, and rode not on an ass, but on a rail....
At this doctrine the long-faced hypocrite and the sanctimonious bigot will probably cry, blasphemy! ... Object not, therefore, too strongly against the marriage of Christ ... (Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp.259-60).

And here is ma favorite quote:

I discover that some of the Eastern papers represent me as a great blasphemer, because I said, in my lecture on Marriage, at our last Conference, that Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children.
All that I have to say in reply to that charge is this—they worship a Savior that is too pure and holy to fulfill the commands of his Father. I worship one that is just pure and holy enough "to fulfill all righteousness;" not only the righteous law of baptism, but the still more righteous and important law "to multiply and replenish the earth" (Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.210).

And Orson Pratt wrote:

We have now clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His first Born, and another being upon the earth by whom He begat the tabernacle of Jesus, as his only begotten in this world. We have also proved most clearly that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings' daughters and many honorable wives were to be married. We have also proved that both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in time; ... it would be so shocking to the modesty of the very pious ladies of Christendom to see Abraham and his wives, Jacob and his wives, Jesus and his honorable wives, all eating occasionally at the same table, ... If you do not want your morals corrupted, and your delicate ears shocked and your pious modesty put to the blush by the society of polygamists and their wives, do not venture near the New Earth; for polygamists will be honored there, and will be among the chief rulers in that Kingdom (The Seer, p.172-173).

To me it is clear: Mormons believed, that God and Jesus were polygamists.

People have their opinions. Interesting huh but not doctrine if the church.

 

[mmksparbud]

The church has no opinion on whether Jesus and God are polygamists???!!!!----This is restored Christianity???!!!---No opinion is an opinion!!! This is either flatly refuted or stated as a fact of Mormon believes. How can there be no opinion on this?

"The title rabbi is derived from the noun rav, which in biblical Hebrew means "great" and does not occur in the Bible; in its later sense in mishnaic Hebrew, however, the word rav means a master as opposed to a slave (e.g., "does a slave rebel against his rav"–Ber. 10a; "It is like a slave who filled a cup for his rav and he poured the water over his face"–Suk. 2:9). It was only during the tannaitic period, in the generation after Hillel, that it was employed as a title for the sages. The passage in the New Testament (Matt. 23:7) in which the Scribes and Pharisees are criticized because they "love… to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi" probably reflects the fact of its recent introduction. The word "rabbi" therefore means literally "my master," although the Sephardim point it and pronounce it ribbi, the suffix therefore not being a pronominal one. In any case it lost its significance, and rabbi became simply the title accorded to a sage. Since the title was accorded only to those who had been properly ordained, and such ordination was not granted in talmudic times outside Ereẓ Israel (see Semikhah ), it was not borne by the Babylonian sages (the amoraim) who adopted, or were granted, the alternative title of rav. In the Talmud, therefore, the title rabbi refers either to a tanna or to a Palestinian amora, while rav refers to a Babylonian amora. The rabbi of the Talmud was therefore completely different from the present-day holder of the title. The talmudic rabbi was an interpreter and expounder of the Bible and the Oral Law, and almost invariably had an occupation whence he derived his livelihood. It was only in the Middle Ages that the rabbi became–in addition to, or instead of, the interpreter and decisor of the law–the teacher, preacher, and spiritual head of the Jewish congregation or community, and it is with this meaning of the word that this article deals. For the talmudic rabbi see Sages. In modern usage the word "rabbi" in Hebrew has sometimes become the equivalent of "mister." Thus every Jew called up to the reading of the Torah is invited to do so as "Rabbi So-and-So the son of Rabbi So-and-So," and for the rabbi as spiritual head the title ha-rav is employed."

[Louis Isaac Rabinowitz]
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0017_0_16257.html

νομοδιδάσκαλος

nomodidaskalos

nom-od-id-as'-kal-os

From G3551 and G1320; an expounder of the (Jewish) law, that is, a Rabbi: - doctor (teacher) of the law.

ῥαββί

rhabbi

hrab-bee'

Of Hebrew origin [H7227] with pronominal suffix; my master, that is, Rabbi, as an official title of honor: - Master, Rabbi.

ῥαββί


rhabbi

Thayer Definition:

1) my great one, my honourable sir

2) Rabbi, a title used by the Jews to address their teachers (and also honour them when not addressing them)

 

[withwonderingawe]

The church has no opinion on whether Jesus and God are polygamists???!!!!----This is restored Christianity???!!!---No opinion is an opinion!!! This is either flatly refuted or stated as a fact of Mormon believes. How can there be no opinion on this?

"The title rabbi is derived from the noun rav, which in biblical Hebrew means "great" and does not occur in the Bible; in its later sense in mishnaic Hebrew, however, the word rav means a master as opposed to a slave (e.g., "does a slave rebel against his rav"–Ber. 10a; "It is like a slave who filled a cup for his rav and he poured the water over his face"–Suk. 2:9). It was only during the tannaitic period, in the generation after Hillel, that it was employed as a title for the sages. The passage in the New Testament (Matt. 23:7) in which the Scribes and Pharisees are criticized because they "love… to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi" probably reflects the fact of its recent introduction. The word "rabbi" therefore means literally "my master," although the Sephardim point it and pronounce it ribbi, the suffix therefore not being a pronominal one. In any case it lost its significance, and rabbi became simply the title accorded to a sage. Since the title was accorded only to those who had been properly ordained, and such ordination was not granted in talmudic times outside Ereẓ Israel (see Semikhah ), it was not borne by the Babylonian sages (the amoraim) who adopted, or were granted, the alternative title of rav. In the Talmud, therefore, the title rabbi refers either to a tanna or to a Palestinian amora, while rav refers to a Babylonian amora. The rabbi of the Talmud was therefore completely different from the present-day holder of the title. The talmudic rabbi was an interpreter and expounder of the Bible and the Oral Law, and almost invariably had an occupation whence he derived his livelihood. It was only in the Middle Ages that the rabbi became–in addition to, or instead of, the interpreter and decisor of the law–the teacher, preacher, and spiritual head of the Jewish congregation or community, and it is with this meaning of the word that this article deals. For the talmudic rabbi see Sages. In modern usage the word "rabbi" in Hebrew has sometimes become the equivalent of "mister." Thus every Jew called up to the reading of the Torah is invited to do so as "Rabbi So-and-So the son of Rabbi So-and-So," and for the rabbi as spiritual head the title ha-rav is employed."

[Louis Isaac Rabinowitz]
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0017_0_16257.html

νομοδιδάσκαλος

nomodidaskalos

nom-od-id-as'-kal-os

From G3551 and G1320; an expounder of the (Jewish) law, that is, a Rabbi: - doctor (teacher) of the law.

ῥαββί

rhabbi

hrab-bee'

Of Hebrew origin [H7227] with pronominal suffix; my master, that is, Rabbi, as an official title of honor: - Master, Rabbi.

ῥαββί


rhabbi

Thayer Definition:

1) my great one, my honourable sir

2) Rabbi, a title used by the Jews to address their teachers (and also honour them when not addressing them)

Mmk; The church has no opinion on whether Jesus and God are polygamists???!!!!----This is restored Christianity???!!!---No opinion is an opinion!!! This is either flatly refuted or stated as a fact of Mormon believes. How can there be no opinion on this?



We’ve already discussed the fact that we believe we have a Mother in Heaven, we also believe there are “ worlds without number”, we also believe plural marriage does exist in the Celestial Kingdom.

Many Mormons have speculated 1+1+1=3

But is it doctrine? No!

Actual doctrine is only created when the Prophet and his two counselors have prayed and voted unanimously. They then presented it to the Council of the Twelve Apostles, then they pray on it and when they vote unanimously in agreement then it becomes doctrine.

Nothing like this has ever been done with this speculation.

My brother was at a meeting of a group of young missionaries where President Hinckley was having a Q&A . One of them asked the Prophet was Jesus married? He replied

“Brethren, it doesn’t matter if the pearly gates swing or slide just as long as they open”

Personally I don’t believe he was, he knew he was going to die so I don’t see him pre-planning to leave a wife and family behind.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Mainstream Christians,
Do you guys want to have a rational discussion?
Or do you want to just spend the thread insulting people?

 

[civilwarbuff]

edit

 

[Jutta2]

God and Jesus are polygamists??????---Is this for real???? Is this an offshoot sect of Mormons??? I am stunned.

Mormons believes this stuff for more than 7 decades. They teach another gospel than our savior and his apostles did.