LDS Why do Mormons think all Christians are in apostasy?

[BigDaddy4]

Well, we are all spiritually dead before we accept God. Everyone will be resurrected from the death (to various extents) except for those cast into darkness.


1) Father, Son, & Spirit
2) Son, & Spirit
3) Spirit only



WonderingAwe talked about this, a very good response.

I’ll see if I can add to it a little—
Mormons believe at the very most glorious state (remember, we’re talking a spectrum, even within 1, 2, & 3), righteous men and women have a chance to be sealed together as spouses. Additionally, their children have the opportunity to be sealed with them. Some more info: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/sealing

Again, God is infinitely fair, so no one is denied the opportunity to find a righteous spouse in the eternities, including if the person was not about to find a spouse in this life & if a person’s Earthly spouse did not honor their marriage oath to God.


Correct. The eternal loving bond between requires the most charitable souls (you can’t hold anything back).

Did I cover all your questions?

No. Why are you not fully transparent? There is 1a), 1b), and 1c) according to your D&C 131.

 

[Naoiwi]

One of the promises Mormons make with God is to abstain from alcohol. This is a new commandment (last 1-2 centuries).

Drinking alcohol now versus in 0 AD is comparing apples and oranges. Before modern sanitation, drinking water was simply asking for a disease, so people drank alcohol (it was very watered down by our standards today). Versus today, water is available and safe to drink, versus alcohol is... frankly more of a social scourge than anything else.

Very interesting this alcohol subject! First of all the bible says don't make promises. And it's interesting to me that Mormons don't drink smoke drink caffeine not suppose to eat chocolate because of caffeine yet the Jesus says not to concern yourself with what you eat he said it's not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles a man. But Mormons believe it's wrong so then for them it's wrong according to the bible. But what I don't get is they call this sin yet they sell all of it in their grocery stores . Do you believe it's okay to sell sin to make money? Because what it tells me is its okay to sell drugs as long as you don't do it. Nothing right about any of this! A Mormon starts doing all that eating all this so called sin now he's a jack Mormon having to sit in the back of the church yet your own stores sold him the sin ! If that's not hypocritical I don't know what is! Jesus made clear everything done in moderation is okay and yes the wine was alcohol so don't say it wasn't. Proof! At the wedding when Jesus turned the water to wine they were surprised because the best wine usually comes out first and if you've studied at all you know why. They bring the good wine first and once everyone is tipsy they bring the cheap wine because they are to drunk to notice! Yes and Jesus advised Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach problems! You Mormons should stop making up your own rules because they do nothing but contradict scripture!

 

[Naoiwi]

Very interesting this alcohol subject! First of all the bible says don't make promises. And it's interesting to me that Mormons don't drink smoke drink caffeine not suppose to eat chocolate because of caffeine yet the Jesus says not to concern yourself with what you eat he said it's not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles a man. But Mormons believe it's wrong so then for them it's wrong according to the bible. But what I don't get is they call this sin yet they sell all of it in their grocery stores . Do you believe it's okay to sell sin to make money? Because what it tells me is its okay to sell drugs as long as you don't do it. Nothing right about any of this! A Mormon starts doing all that eating all this so called sin now he's a jack Mormon having to sit in the back of the church yet your own stores sold him the sin ! If that's not hypocritical I don't know what is! Jesus made clear everything done in moderation is okay and yes the wine was alcohol so don't say it wasn't. Proof! At the wedding when Jesus turned the water to wine they were surprised because the best wine usually comes out first and if you've studied at all you know why. They bring the good wine first and once everyone is tipsy they bring the cheap wine because they are to drunk to notice! Yes and Jesus advised Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach problems! You Mormons should stop making up your own rules because they do nothing but contradict scripture!

Jesus also said my Word will stand forever so don't tell me about a new commandment changing the Bible he says if anyone adds or takes away from what is written the plagued of life will be added to them ! You best get it right folks! Mormon church is money making false cult. They brag about how many members they have yet Jesus says the way to righteousness is narrow and FEW will find it that's because HE is the only way the truth and the life NOBODY gets to the Father but by ME. So how do you figure a man will or will not call his wife/WIVES(which is against Gods word) out of the grave when Jesus makes clear all are one in Christ Jesus and the only way to God is by HIM!

 

[withwonderingawe]

The bible says nothing about a man calling a woman out of the grave in fact the bible says in heaven there is no marriages nobody given in marriage. Bible says all are one, male female Greek Jew slave bond all are one in Christ Jesus. The bible is true and non of what you just said is in it. There is no truth in the Book of Mormon Pearl of great price or d&c people. Jesus said if he didn't teach it don't believe it. Jesus said it is finished. Jesus said the prophets were until John. Everything the morons have added to the Word of God is a lie. Do not fall for it. Get your face in the bible and in prayer for truth! 1st John says with the Holy Spirit you don't need any man to teach you what is true and right the spirit will teach you and is no lie! Believe that! Ask God for truth! Not a Mormon who denies the deity of Christ that Jesus is God come in the flesh to save the world! The believe Jesus is satans brother making him an angel which is a lie! Jesus accepted worship throughout the gospels yet when John tried to worship the angel in revelation he stopped him! Jesus is the perfect lamb without spot or wrinkle! If he accepted worship not being God it would have been sin but he's perfect! Do not fall for these Mormon lies. The only way to get truth is study the bible and ask God for his truth! He will not lie to you if you seek him you will find him he never said let someone else seek him and tell you what they found! You must seek the Lord with heart soul and mind snd you will find him!

There is a rather long thread on marriage where we answered many of your questions perhaps someone could bump it up so you could read through it.

 

[Naoiwi]

Well, we are all spiritually dead before we accept God. Everyone will be resurrected from the death (to various extents) except for those cast into darkness.


1) Father, Son, & Spirit
2) Son, & Spirit
3) Spirit only



WonderingAwe talked about this, a very good response.

I’ll see if I can add to it a little—
Mormons believe at the very most glorious state (remember, we’re talking a spectrum, even within 1, 2, & 3), righteous men and women have a chance to be sealed together as spouses. Additionally, their children have the opportunity to be sealed with them. Some more info: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/sealing

Again, God is infinitely fair, so no one is denied the opportunity to find a righteous spouse in the eternities, including if the person was not about to find a spouse in this life & if a person’s Earthly spouse did not honor their marriage oath to God.


Correct. The eternal loving bond between requires the most charitable souls (you can’t hold anything back).

Did I cover all your questions?

Scripture says in heaven there is neither marriage or anyone given in marriage we are the bride of Christ! Mormons once again going against the Word of God

 

[Jane_Doe]

Everyone: could we please NOT derail this thread? It's been on the LDS views about apostasy and salvation. If anyone wants to talk about anything else, feel free to start a new thread on those subjects.

 

[Naoiwi]

Sorry, I quoted the wrong person, I will edit that post. My apology.

During the holocaust or after there was a huge uproar because Mormons were getting baptized for the dead Jews putting them on their list of Mormons . Unless one is a messianic Jew they don't even believe in Jesus as the Messiah and the Jews had a fit over this! The Mormons think they can choose someone's faith for them and they are dead wrong! Just like forcing 8 year olds into baptism in the church calling it a choice . Uh what were their choices? They can't even read not less understand what the bible is saying! They say because people in the bible in one place were getting baptized for the dead. But Cain murdered able it doesn't mean it was right! You don't look at what people were doing you look at what Jesus taught! They use this same tactic for hsving many wives but Jesus said A MAN shall leave his mother and cling to his WIFE! Not WIVES but WIFE! Baptism is a choir once you reach the age of accountability because then and only then does one understand what they are doing! You have right getting baptized for someone after they die who knows without doubt the Mormon church is 100% false

 

[Goatee]

Very interesting this alcohol subject! First of all the bible says don't make promises. And it's interesting to me that Mormons don't drink smoke drink caffeine not suppose to eat chocolate because of caffeine yet the Jesus says not to concern yourself with what you eat he said it's not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles a man. But Mormons believe it's wrong so then for them it's wrong according to the bible. But what I don't get is they call this sin yet they sell all of it in their grocery stores . Do you believe it's okay to sell sin to make money? Because what it tells me is its okay to sell drugs as long as you don't do it. Nothing right about any of this! A Mormon starts doing all that eating all this so called sin now he's a jack Mormon having to sit in the back of the church yet your own stores sold him the sin ! If that's not hypocritical I don't know what is! Jesus made clear everything done in moderation is okay and yes the wine was alcohol so don't say it wasn't. Proof! At the wedding when Jesus turned the water to wine they were surprised because the best wine usually comes out first and if you've studied at all you know why. They bring the good wine first and once everyone is tipsy they bring the cheap wine because they are to drunk to notice! Yes and Jesus advised Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach problems! You Mormons should stop making up your own rules because they do nothing but contradict scripture!

Definitely agree with you

 

[ToBeLoved]

There is a rather long thread on marriage where we answered many of your questions perhaps someone could bump it up so you could read through it.

Good idea. Can you do that?

 

[ToBeLoved]

A lot of good points coming up here. Interesting thread.

 

[mmksparbud]

Don't want to add to the derailing thing--but being SDA I just had to add this---We also abstain from alcohol, smoking, caffeine--And no SDA would sell any of this to anyone else in their store. We also prefer vegetarian but clean meats are OK. These are for health issues---to keep our "temples" as healthy as possible and our minds as clear as possible. Trying to follow God original plan for our eating habits is all that is about. Just trying to live as long as we can and to be as healthy during our lives as we can so we can do the work God wants us to do better and longer and enjoy our lives. And all the research has backed it up for we do live longer and healthier, and anyone else who follows the plan without even knowing it--because of finances, culture, availability and so on---there actually are more alcohol free vegetarians than there are SDA's. There are atheists who abstain from alcohol and are vegetarian.

 

[Goatee]

Don't want to add to the derailing thing--but being SDA I just had to add this---We also abstain from alcohol, smoking, caffeine--And no SDA would sell any of this to anyone else in their store. We also prefer vegetarian but clean meats are OK. These are for health issues---to keep our "temples" as healthy as possible and our minds as clear as possible. Trying to follow God original plan for our eating habits is all that is about. Just trying to live as long as we can and to be as healthy during our lives as we can so we can do the work God wants us to do better and longer and enjoy our lives. And all the research has backed it up for we do live longer and healthier, and anyone else who follows the plan without even knowing it--because of finances, culture, availability and so on---there actually are more alcohol free vegetarians than there are SDA's. There are atheists who abstain from alcohol and are vegetarian.

More fun though having a nice glass of wine (or 2) and a steak!

Like someone said above, its not what goes into your mouth that is bad for you but what comes out of it!

God made all these good things for us to enjoy within moderation. Except smoking obviously!

Mark 7:14-23
14 And he called the people to him again, and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: 15 there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him.”17 And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. 18 And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20 And he said, “What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man.”

 

[withwonderingawe]

During the holocaust or after there was a huge uproar because Mormons were getting baptized for the dead Jews putting them on their list of Mormons . Unless one is a messianic Jew they don't even believe in Jesus as the Messiah and the Jews had a fit over this! The Mormons think they can choose someone's faith for them and they are dead wrong! Just like forcing 8 year olds into baptism in the church calling it a choice . Uh what were their choices? They can't even read not less understand what the bible is saying! They say because people in the bible in one place were getting baptized for the dead. But Cain murdered able it doesn't mean it was right! You don't look at what people were doing you look at what Jesus taught! They use this same tactic for hsving many wives but Jesus said A MAN shall leave his mother and cling to his WIFE! Not WIVES but WIFE! Baptism is a choir once you reach the age of accountability because then and only then does one understand what they are doing! You have right getting baptized for someone after they die who knows without doubt the Mormon church is 100% false

You're new here so let me give you some advice, it helps if you stick to the topic of discussion and then put just one item at a time. See I'm not even going to address your complaints because they are a mismash of everything all jumbled up. I can't make heads or tails of it. If you want to talk about baptism then start a thread on it.

 

[Ironhold]

Nope! The US government wanted that the renegade Mormons no longer put outside the law (polygamy was forbidden, and the LDS Church was the sole ruler in the Territory of Deseret. The government wanted that Mormons respected the laws of the United States, something they then did not.

The church was actually fighting the polygamy laws in the courts up until the 1890s, and so continued the practice because they regarded the laws against it as clear violation of the Constitution.

This isn't something that people like talking about, as it destroys the narrative of the church being a "renegade" organization.

What's more, a common "They put the church before the government!" argument from the period was that members of the church preferred to have the clergy arbitrate disputes instead of having the court system litigate them. Although nowadays arbitration is regarded quite favorably, back then the federal appointees saw it as the church denying federal authority.

 

[Ironhold]

What does IRL mean?

"In real life".

Far too many people these days come online, ask questions of the website they're on, and then get upset when folks don't respond within a ridiculously short amount of time; I've seen people start in as shortly as 15 minutes after their original question, which is not enough time for most people to respond.

 

[ToBeLoved]

In anticipation of questions on #5, I’ll elaborate—

A proper baptism must be done in proper authority by priest in Christ’s Church. No, a Christian may not be baptized by a Hindu. Yes, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regard their church as being Christ’s One True here on the Earth today, and being the only ones having Christ’s authority. All other churches, though they have the Bible and much truth, they have lost Christ’s authority.

How can we be Christ's own, justified by Him as sinless, given the mind of Christ, have His Word written on our hearts, given the Holy Spriit of God Himself, heirs of Christ, co-heirs of the Father.

Yet have lost Christ's authority?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Useful links on LDS views of Priesthood and Christ’s authority:
https://www.mormon.org/faq/purpose-of-priesthood
https://www.lds.org/topics/priesthood?lang=eng

Useful link on other churches loosing Christ’s authority.
https://www.lds.org/topics/apostasy?lang=eng

End of Part 3. Part 4 will be on Mormons and the Final Judgment, Part 5 will be on non-Mormons and the Final Judgment.

Any questions on baptism?

Why do Mormons feel the early church lost the priesthood?

Because in your link (2nd one) it says this:

The word priesthood has two meanings. First, priesthood is the power and authority of God. It has always existed and will continue to exist without end (see Alma 13:7–8; D&C 84:17–18).

If it has always existed, then how could it have been lost after the apostles died?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Useful links on LDS views of Priesthood and Christ’s authority:

Useful link on other churches loosing Christ’s authority.
https://www.lds.org/topics/apostasy?lang=eng

So, I am reading from the URL above and this is what it says:

Apostasy
When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy. One example is the Great Apostasy, which occurred after the Savior established His Church. After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. Because of this widespread apostasy, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth. This apostasy lasted until Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the restoration of the fulness of the gospel.

What in Mormonism is the principles of the gospel?

Because in Christianity the gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ died for the sins of all mankind on the cross and anyone can come to Him for salvation and be saved from eternal death.

What is the principles of the gospel that man corrupted?

What are the unauthorized changes in church organization?

What are the unauthorized changes in priesthood ordinances?

Latter-day Saints believe that, through the priesthood conferred to Joseph Smith by the ministering of angels, the authority to act in God’s name was brought back to the earth. This is “restored,” not “reformed,” Christianity.

The truth is in no way is LDS restored Christianity, because it is not Christianity at all. I personally as a Christian feel very used that Mormonism has said they have restored our faith, but their faith is NOTHING like Christianity. It is using Christianity as a pull to interest people and then it uses our same words, apostles, salvation, the Father, the Son, priesthod, and really adds book, after book, after book so their is nothing left of Biblical Christianity for them to even thought of restoring. And saying that the Father had sex with Mary to produce Jesus is blasphemous!

The more I know, I see how it presents itself as something totally different than what it is. Our Christianity fashioned after the Bible has all been changed? What is left in Mormonism of the Bible? It doesn't exist? So how can this be restored Christianity? And then you wonder why we get mad because your religion has twisted all our terms to sound biblical, but each definition has another meaning, totally different from the one we use.

Dictionary defintion:

noun, plural apostasies.
1.
a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.


How can Mormonism prove that we deserted the Christian faith? As a matter of fact, I believe in Constantine set Christianity as the official religion. That doesn't sound like the fatih was deserted.

 

[Ironhold]

Why do Mormons feel the early church lost the priesthood?

Because in your link (2nd one) it says this:

The word priesthood has two meanings. First, priesthood is the power and authority of God. It has always existed and will continue to exist without end (see Alma 13:7–8; D&C 84:17–18).

If it has always existed, then how could it have been lost after the apostles died?

Just because it always existed doesn't mean that people actually had it.

Kinda like having a whole slew of VHS tapes but not having a working player.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The church was actually fighting the polygamy laws in the courts up until the 1890s, and so continued the practice because they regarded the laws against it as clear violation of the Constitution.

This isn't something that people like talking about, as it destroys the narrative of the church being a "renegade" organization.

What's more, a common "They put the church before the government!" argument from the period was that members of the church preferred to have the clergy arbitrate disputes instead of having the court system litigate them. Although nowadays arbitration is regarded quite favorably, back then the federal appointees saw it as the church denying federal authority.

Do you have documentation for that?

I heard today, that Mormons think Jesus had three wives. Is this true?