LDS Why do Mormons think all Christians are in apostasy?

[ToBeLoved]

We cannot pay the price for our sins, and with Christ & His atonement, we will never have our stain washed cleaned and never live with God in the eternities. That is a huge price.

But Jesus atoned for all sin for His Children. That is what Justification is. Jesus Christ washing us clean from all sin.

Here is justification in more detail with scripture that you can follow:

**
Question: "What is justification? What does it mean to be justified?"

Answer: Simply put, to justify is to declare righteous, to make one right with God. Justification is God’s declaring those who receive Christ to be righteous, based on Christ’s righteousness being imputed to the accounts of those who receive Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). Though justification as a principle is found throughout Scripture, the main passage describing justification in relation to believers is Romans 3:21-26: “But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”

We are justified, declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation. Justification does not make us righteous, but rather pronounces us righteous. Our righteousness comes from placing our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. His sacrifice covers our sin, allowing God to see us as perfect and unblemished. Because as believers we are in Christ, God sees Christ's own righteousness when He looks at us. This meets God's demands for perfection; thus, He declares us righteous—He justifies us.

Romans 5:18-19 sums it up well: “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” It is because of justification that the peace of God can rule in our lives. It is because of justification that believers can have assurance of salvation. It is the fact of justification that enables God to begin the process of sanctification—the process by which God makes us in reality what we already are positionally. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1).

Taken from http://www.gotquestions.org/justification.html
**

 

[ToBeLoved]

My Parts 1 & 2 did not touch on the Trinity or Godhood at all, though it did mention belief in Jesus as the Son of God. Beyond that... honestly I view this as a side-track. Mind if we hold off on this until I get done talking about salvation?

Ok. As long as we can come back to it.

 

[Jane_Doe]

But Jesus atoned for all sin for His Children. That is what Justification is. Jesus Christ washing us clean from all sin.

Here is justification in more detail with scripture that you can follow:

**
Question: "What is justification? What does it mean to be justified?"

Answer: Simply put, to justify is to declare righteous, to make one right with God. Justification is God’s declaring those who receive Christ to be righteous, based on Christ’s righteousness being imputed to the accounts of those who receive Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). Though justification as a principle is found throughout Scripture, the main passage describing justification in relation to believers is Romans 3:21-26: “But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”

We are justified, declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation. Justification does not make us righteous, but rather pronounces us righteous. Our righteousness comes from placing our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. His sacrifice covers our sin, allowing God to see us as perfect and unblemished. Because as believers we are in Christ, God sees Christ's own righteousness when He looks at us. This meets God's demands for perfection; thus, He declares us righteous—He justifies us.

Romans 5:18-19 sums it up well: “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” It is because of justification that the peace of God can rule in our lives. It is because of justification that believers can have assurance of salvation. It is the fact of justification that enables God to begin the process of sanctification—the process by which God makes us in reality what we already are positionally. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1).

Taken from http://www.gotquestions.org/justification.html
**

Mormons do agree that Christ atoned for all the sins of people whom accepted Him. My response in #159 was talking about those whom reject Christ and are left to stand alone.

Also TBL, I'm taking a lot of time to write out personalized responses to all of your questions, and would greatly appreciate it if you responded to me with your own words, not copy-pasted stuff.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Mormons do agree that Christ atoned for all the sins of people whom accepted Him. My response in #159 was talking about those whom reject Christ and are left to stand alone.

Also TBL, I'm taking a lot of time to write out personalized responses to all of your questions, and would greatly appreciate it if you responded to me with your own words, not copy-pasted stuff.

Ok. I can do that.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Ok. I can do that.

Thank you.

 

[Jutta2]

Someone cannot take away what the Prophets and others in leadership say. This is what the decision-makers in the church teach and say.

First of all, I want to apologize that my English is not perfect. English is not my mother tongue.
Then to your statements:
The LDS prophets have often contradicted. Often even lied deliberately. To perform non-Mormons and Mormons astray.
This is marvelously the example seen in the doctrine of plural marriage. Smith and other leaders denied this, claiming that Mormons would only marry a woman. That was the case until 1840/43. Under Brigham Yung polygamy was considered necessary to obtain the celestial kingdom, and (losing voting rights and ownership) under President Snow and pressure from the government, there was "suddenly" a revelation which polygamy was banned. When Larry King log Gordon B. Hinkley about polygamy, as well as the reasons for the introduction of polygamy among Mormons in 1831, because of the sordid affair of Smith with Fanny Alger (his minor maid) and other women. In the guidance of Mormon life and work of Brigham Young polygamy is secretive, and done as if Young was getting married with a woman (here he was with more than 40 women married).

I don't care if it is 'officially' taught or not. Just like my other thread about the Brigham Young blood atonement sermon. He was their prophet, so His words are in their view, from God.

The speech about the blood atonement, Young gave the data Rerchtfertigung of murders of non-Mormons, Mormon apostate; and marriage unwilling women. It shows how man has abused its power. Christ would never have done such a thing.

That carries much more weight with me than what is in their teaching books.

To judge a religion, one must look at what they teach, how they deal with their own history, and how they act where they have power. And what I had seen, has me shiver and let sucks.

And this should make others wonder, why are they saying things, but won't put them in the 'official' records/teachings?

It's tactics, which I call Teflon. However, if you dig deep enough with Mormons finds fell statements that are historically, theologically and biblically wrong.

 

[Jutta2]

Jane Doe, I have a simple little question for you:
Why do you refuse to respond to my posts. Is it because that you regard me an apostate?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Part 3, of my explaining the Mormon views on salvation---

Baptism: A person whom has new faith in Christ who has repented of their sins should be baptized (this is a essential commandment from the Lord). A proper baptism consists of--

1) The participant is a believer pledging their devotion as a disciple of Christ (they must be of accountable age).
2) The baptism is done in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit.
3) It is performed via immersion in water, in similitude of His death and resurrection.
4) Followed by the confirmation of the Holy Spirit.
5) Done with the proper authority of a priest in Christ’s Church

In anticipation of questions on #5, I’ll elaborate—

A proper baptism must be done in proper authority by priest in Christ’s Church. No, a Christian may not be baptized by a Hindu. Yes, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regard their church as being Christ’s One True here on the Earth today, and being the only ones having Christ’s authority. All other churches, though they have the Bible and much truth, they have lost Christ’s authority.

Non-Mormons and baptism: as previously discussed Mormons do not recknoiginze the authority to baptize in other churches. That being said, non-Mormons are not "out of luck" and hell-bound, and Mormons do acknowledge other Christians as Christians. I will elaborate more on this in Part 5.

Useful links on baptism:
https://www.mormon.org/faq/topic/baptism
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/baptism
https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-20-baptism?lang=eng

Useful links on LDS views of Priesthood and Christ’s authority:
https://www.mormon.org/faq/purpose-of-priesthood
https://www.lds.org/topics/priesthood?lang=eng

Useful link on other churches loosing Christ’s authority.
https://www.lds.org/topics/apostasy?lang=eng

End of Part 3. Part 4 will be on Mormons and the Final Judgment, Part 5 will be on non-Mormons and the Final Judgment.

Any questions on baptism?

 

[Jutta2]

Any questions on baptism?

Yeah! Baptism for the dead. Where is that mentioned in the Bible? The quote of Paul from the Corinthians (15:29), namely, does not work! Why? Because Paul here speaks from a group of people who practiced this; but did not believe in the resurrection. Paul called this as an example, which is not worthy of imitation. BTW, what is happening today in Mormon temples, otherwise whas not happened in ancient times in Jewish temples.

 

[tickingclocker]

From what I've gathered, your church does not have a priesthood....

Actually, Protestant churches do have an ongoing priesthood, one instantly bestowed by Jesus Christ Himself upon each and every believer/temple/church in Him regardless of denominational moniker in 1 Peter 2:9. Mormonism chooses to not accept that fact. Can't help that. It's a fact to us, just as your priesthood, consisting of male mormons in good standing over the age of 12, remains a fact to you. And that's only because you were taught it. The bible (which you also use) clearly declares all believers to be God's priests, for all to see, and by official Apostle's decree at that. (Was Peter an apostate then?) Things bestowed directly by God can never be altered by mormonism or anything else. The bible states all believers in Jesus Christ are priests. Your KJV bible states the same, as you know. Obviously you are not going to believe that bit because you were taught that the verse is not true. Mormonism limits priesthood to its males, after the old Law. Okay, if that is what you choose to believe. I'm not arguing with your belief, despite the bible explaining in Hebrews 8:13, that:

"In speaking of a “new” covenant, He has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear."

Your males can be priests, but no one else has the right--despite God clearly stating they are, is really what you are trying to get people to believe. Admit it. And you only admit it because you had to be taught that such a thing is "true". You didn't come up with it on your own. Nowhere in all of scripture, for all to see--does it ever state "mormon males are the only true priests". We as believers can point to a clearly-worded scripture, by an authority figure we both recognize. What can you point to besides the old covenant system, which was made obsolete by Jesus Christ's final sacrifice?

How silly to argue over all this. All "priest" means, and has ever meant, is "messenger of the Gospel". Our priestly duty is to proclaim to the lost that Jesus is Lord. What's to argue over in that?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Actually, Protestant churches do have an ongoing priesthood, one instantly bestowed by Jesus Christ Himself upon each and every believer/temple/church in Him regardless of denominational moniker in 1 Peter 2:9. Mormonism chooses to not accept that fact. Can't help that. It's a fact to us, just as your priesthood, consisting of male mormons in good standing over the age of 12, remains a fact to you. And that's only because you were taught it. The bible (which you also use) clearly declares all believers to be God's priests, for all to see, and by official Apostle's decree at that. (Was Peter an apostate then?) Things bestowed directly by God can never be altered by mormonism or anything else. The bible states all believers in Jesus Christ are priests. Your KJV bible states the same, as you know. Obviously you are not going to believe that bit because you were taught that the verse is not true. Mormonism limits priesthood to its males, after the old Law. Okay, if that is what you choose to believe. I'm not arguing with your belief, despite the bible explaining in Hebrews 8:13, that:

"In speaking of a “new” covenant, He has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear."

Your males can be priests, but no one else has the right--despite God clearly stating they are, is really what you are trying to get people to believe. Admit it. And you only admit it because you had to be taught that such a thing is "true". You didn't come up with it on your own. Nowhere in all of scripture, for all to see--does it ever state "mormon males are the only true priests". We as believers can point to a clearly-worded scripture, by an authority figure we both recognize. What can you point to besides the old covenant system, which was made obsolete by Jesus Christ's final sacrifice?

How silly to argue over all this. All "priest" means, and has ever meant, is "messenger of the Gospel". Our priestly duty is to proclaim to the lost that Jesus is Lord. What's to argue over in that?

Mormonism in not a Protestant faith. There are many Christian faiths whom do hold a priesthood and ordination, such as the Catholic churches and the Orthodox churches (majority of Christian believers, by the numbers). There are MANY interpretations of the Bible outside of your particular Protestant one.

Tickingclocker, I am trying my best to explain my faith's view on salvation, per TBL's request. I am trying to do so in a respectful and charitable manner, devoid of attacking/insulting any one's faith. I would appreciate the same courtesy from you.

 

[tickingclocker]

Perhaps you could explain things to me then?
You say Catholics and you go to different churches (2)... but Christ only founded 1 church
You have conflicting beliefs you consider to be essential (the role/need of priesthood), which points to you being 2 churches, but you say you are 1.
How do you reconcile this?

The bible doesn't hide the fact that the Apostles also had conflicting beliefs. Would that automatically make them apostates, too? It should by the rules of your thinking. Denominations are still under the same head: The Lord Jesus Christ. Many mansions and all that.... There are many branches within mormonism as well. They all believe the same Book of Mormon, do they not? What does that make them? LDS? CoC? FLDS? It makes them separate entities, despite establishing their church authority on the same shared book? No wonder mormonism is so confusing.

So what is the point you are trying to stick in someone? That our church buildings have different labels but all still come under the same belief that Jesus is Lord? Don't YOU, too, believe that Jesus is Lord, like we all do?? So where's the beef, then?

 

[Jane_Doe]

The bible doesn't hide the fact that the Apostles also had conflicting beliefs. Would that automatically make them apostates, too? It should by the rules of your thinking. Denominations are still under the same head: The Lord Jesus Christ. Many mansions and all that.... There are many branches within mormonism as well. They all believe the same Book of Mormon, do they not? What does that make them? LDS? CoC? FLDS? It makes them separate entities, despite establishing their church authority on the same shared book? No wonder mormonism is so confusing.

So what is the point you are trying to stick in someone? That our church buildings have different labels but all still come under the same belief that Jesus is Lord? Don't YOU, too, believe that Jesus is Lord, like we all do?? So where's the beef, then?

Tickingclocker, if you want start a new thread for asking these questions, feel free to do so.

I, at the current moment I am responding to TBL's request at explaining the Mormon view of salvation, and will only be answering questions directly related to my Parts 1-3. If you continue to ask off-subject derailing questions, I will set you to "ignore" if necessary.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yeah! Baptism for the dead. Where is that mentioned in the Bible? The quote of Paul from the Corinthians (15:29), namely, does not work! Why? Because Paul here speaks from a group of people who practiced this; but did not believe in the resurrection. Paul called this as an example, which is not worthy of imitation. BTW, what is happening today in Mormon temples, otherwise whas not happened in ancient times in Jewish temples.

My question is about the baptism of the dead also.

How can you be sure the person wants to be baptized if they are dead? Isn't to be baptized a choice that the beleiver does to declare their faith in God or is it something else?

The second thing is if the dead are baptized without their consent, because they are obviously dead, why does not the Mormon church do a baptism for every dead person and not just their own relatives or people they know? If they have that authority, why do they limit it?

Also, in particular, why did the Mormons baptize Hitler after He died? Do they not care about the millions of Jews He killed? What makes Hitler more special than my grandmother?

 

[Jane_Doe]

My question is about the baptism of the dead also.

How can you be sure the person wants to be baptized if they are dead? Isn't to be baptized a choice that the beleiver does to declare their faith in God or is it something else?

The second thing is if the dead are baptized without their consent, because they are obviously dead, why does not the Mormon church do a baptism for every dead person and not just their own relatives or people they know? If they have that authority, why do they limit it?

Also, in particular, why did the Mormons baptize Hitler after He died? Do they not care about the millions of Jews He killed? What makes Hitler more special than my grandmother?

Will be discussed in Part 5.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Part 4---

There is much more about of the life of a disciple of Christ I could write here, some of which is pretty important. But due to people’s interest in the Final Judgment and Heaven, I’m going skip to that part.

For now I am going to only talk about the Final Judgment and Heaven as it applies to people whom were Mormon in this life. Non-Mormons will be addressed in Part 5.

The Final Judgment occurs after the resurrection of the body. God, through Jesus Christ, will judge every person to determine the eternal glory they will receive. This judgment is made based on each person’s beliefs, thoughts, words, and works. Beliefs include their acceptance of Jesus’s atonement & faith in Christ. Thoughts and words are pretty self explanatory. Works include us repenting of our sins (through Christ’s power), generally following His ways (through Christ’s power), and making promises through Him via baptism & other rites (again, through Christ’s power).

For a believer, Christ stands as our advocate and sins we have repented of are covered by His atonement. I feel I’ve already talked about this, so won’t repeat myself here.

Where do people after the Final Judgment? Mainstream Christianity and Mormonism do differ in this regard. Mainstream Christianity views the afterlife and a Heaven/Hell binary. Mormonism on the other hand has a spectrum, because God loves all His children and wants to give the most He can. I’ll talk about them from most glorious to least glorious.

1) Those whom as received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized. These are they who overcome the world by their faith. They will live with Christ, the Father, and the Spirit forever. They also have the possibility of being with their families and spouses, and a possibility of becoming like God.

2) These are the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men. Also for those who received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant. They will be visited by Jesus Christ & the Spirit.

3) These people refused Christ, and lived a life full of sin. Still, they have a marvelous abode—something we would call downright wonderful (just much less glorious than the first two). They will be visited by the Spirit.

4) There are very few people who receive this glory-- which is not a glory at all, but a place of darkness. This is for the Judas’ of the world: those whom had unmistakable proof of Christ through the Holy Spirit, but betrayed it. There is no forgiveness for them, and they live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever.

Useful link on all this: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment?lang=eng
Scripture references for any particular part also are available.

Any questions on Part 4?

Again, I will talk about non-Mormons and their judgment/afterlife in Part 5. (Each of these Parts take over an hour to type up…)

 

[Goatee]

Mormonism teaches that all people (who are not adulterers, murderers, or reject mormonism) will end up in heaven, even if they don't believe Jesus Christ is their Savior beforehand. They will be offered the opportunity to do so (or reject Him) once there.

Is this right? If so, i cant understand that as even Jesus said we have to believe in him etc?

 

[tickingclocker]

Mormonism in not a Protestant faith. There are many Christian faiths whom do hold a priesthood and ordination, such as the Catholic churches and the Orthodox churches (majority of Christian believers, by the numbers). There are MANY interpretations of the Bible outside of your particular Protestant one.

Tickingclocker, I am trying my best to explain my faith's view on salvation, per TBL's request. I am trying to do so in a respectful and charitable manner, devoid of attacking/insulting any one's faith. I would appreciate the same courtesy from you.

Whatever gives you the idea that I'm "attacking/insulting your faith"??? I did say--and truly believe--that you have every right to your beliefs--and the same goes for anyone else! I apologize if you think otherwise. I'm merely trying to point out the holes in the arguments you are presenting. Nothing anyone else isn't doing, mind. Understandably not having many mormons on here, you may be feeling like you are being ganged up on. That is not the intent. At least not mine, anyway. If you could point out where you think I was attacking you, I might be able to see it from your eyes.

Carpenters must have a rule to go by, all using the same version or the house will end up being a useless pile of materials fit for nothing. Won't it? Right now, that standard rule is the bible we all share. Fact. That bible states all believers in Jesus Christ are made priests. If you choose to subtract from that through your belief in additional books, so be it! (Your own church suggests the bible might--or might not--have been translated correctly. Well, what if it is?) We, however, are going to stick to the tested to be true, and therefore trusted Holy Bible. Whether you do is your business. Ask yourself, are you the one who is insisting on our stated belief moving from that position? Because if you are, then you ARE the one attempting to offend, I'm sorry to tell you.

May God bless you with His Presence.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Is this right? If so, i cant understand that as even Jesus said we have to believe in him etc?

I am currently typing up the answer to this (it'll be Part 5).

 

[tickingclocker]

Is this right? If so, i cant understand that as even Jesus said we have to believe in him etc?

Mormonism teaches that no murderer, apostate from Mormonism, or adulterer, however humbly and truly penitent, will ever enter the rest of God in heaven. They are instantly sent to what mormonism refers to as "outer darkness", where God is not present, i.e., the state of being completely without any member of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), being forever cut off from their presence. (An LDS-held belief. I'm not sure if its shared among all mormonism-based churches.) The belief is based upon a vision Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon had in 1832 [while re-translating John 5:29].

"And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come" (Josehp Smith, LDS Doctrine & Covenants 42:18).

Adultery (LDS Doctrine & Covenants 132:39) is not quite as clear-cut, especially if compounded by murder like with King David (who mormonism says will suffer for eternity, but not in outer darkness, being left forever repenting.)

This belief presents many problems among non-mormon believers. To us, where would be a place where God is not, considering He created everything? That alone is one for the curiosity books.

(Apologies for failing to always capitalize Mormonism. I type really fast. It's a wonder there's even punctuation)