Ten Commandments still valid so says Bible and pro-Sunday Scholars

[Extraneous]

By the way. I was thinking about the parable of the sower today, and lately, because i post about it often. That parable, and the one about the wheat and tares, and the whole chapter altogether, as seen In Mathew 13 has opened up to me in ways i never quite fully seen as i see them now. I just wanted to share a few words about it. IT all makes so much sense now. A little leaven leavens the whole lump, "the kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into about sixty pounds of flour until it worked all through the dough.”.

It strengthens my faith just to see it unfold before my eyes in scripture and the world. The world is much like the tower of babel with all its strife and confusion in political and religious matters, we who are spiritual speak things with spiritual words, and only ears that are healed by the spirit can hear them.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Sophrosyne, it seems that you have a particular ax to grind with the SDA as you have testified here that you were once an adherent to Adventist doctrine.... to pick up on what Extraneous was saying, you don't seem to mind the Messianic's espousing Sabbath worship but are venomous against Adventists same belief. It's been my experience that those that come out of any denomination that they determine to be in error, are the most ardent critics of that former belief... just my experience.

When you say that we are teaching error and trying to proselytize others to do the same, it is because we are one of the few denom's that believe that the Decalogue as written is still in effect... this is not Biblical trickery as you call it but simply how we see it. I challenge you to show a post where an SDA said that Sabbath observance is salvational. as a former member, you know that we believe that it is not a test of salvation until the sunday law comes into effect, so saying we are bullying others with the spectre of loss of salvation is disingenuous at best.

Almost every premise against what we believe starts by removing the 4th Commandment as if God made a mistake in putting it in the decalogue and then proceed to show how obeying this one Commandment is akin to keeping the mosaic law... talk about Biblical acrobatics!

The message I would like to be giving on here is the 3 angels message but I have been shut down on numerous occasions for doing that. Even a reasoned discussion of the Godhead is disallowed even thought the case against the RC teaching is Biblically sound.... bizarre times we live in. At least it won't be long now till Christ comes and this whole 6000 year old mess can be done away with once an for all.

I'm sorry but you have me confused with someone else.... I've never kept the Sabbath nor been associated with the SDA or ANY Sabbath Keeping church or organization. I've never ever ever had any desire to keep the Sabbath Day. I once thought that I had to go to church on Sunday growing up but I never related it to the Sabbath Commandment. I do believe you are in error and have posted multiple scriptures as have other which have been pretty much trash in the minds of SDA adherents here. I have yet to see any of you address the point I have made time and time again why NO apostle, nor follower named of an Apostle, nor Jesus... EVER EVER EVER commanded ANYONE to keep the Sabbath in the New Testament. We see them commanding all the other 9 of the 10 commandments but NEVER the Sabbath. As you all are fixated on an "INVISIBLE" commandment in the New Testament there needs to be proof that the property of Israel was not stolen by Gentiles (The Sabbath Day). So far nothing but machine gun blasting of scriptures with no sound argument presented. The 4th commandment was never removed... it was stolen by Adventists who aren't Jews and have no right to it.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I'm sorry but you have me confused with someone else.... I've never kept the Sabbath nor been associated with the SDA or ANY Sabbath Keeping church or organization. I've never ever ever had any desire to keep the Sabbath Day. I once thought that I had to go to church on Sunday growing up but I never related it to the Sabbath Commandment. I do believe you are in error and have posted multiple scriptures as have other which have been pretty much trash in the minds of SDA adherents here. I have yet to see any of you address the point I have made time and time again why NO apostle, nor follower named of an Apostle, nor Jesus... EVER EVER EVER commanded ANYONE to keep the Sabbath in the New Testament. We see them commanding all the other 9 of the 10 commandments but NEVER the Sabbath. As you all are fixated on an "INVISIBLE" commandment in the New Testament there needs to be proof that the property of Israel was not stolen by Gentiles (The Sabbath Day). So far nothing but machine gun blasting of scriptures with no sound argument presented. The 4th commandment was never removed... it was stolen by Adventists who aren't Jews and have no right to it.

My apologies, I was referring to BobS... I was reading the dialogue between Bob, Extraneous and yourself and mistakenly out your name to my post... please accept my apology as I don't want to accuse anyone of something they never said.

Edit to add.. original post has been changed to reflect my error....

 

[Sophrosyne]

My apologies, I was referring to BobS... I was reading the dialogue between Bob, Extraneous and yourself and mistakenly out your name to my post... please accept my apology as I don't want to accuse anyone of something they never said.

Edit to add.. original post has been changed to reflect my error....

Apology accepted, mistakes happen that is why we have Jesus.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I have yet to see any of you address the point I have made time and time again why NO apostle, nor follower named of an Apostle, nor Jesus... EVER EVER EVER commanded ANYONE to keep the Sabbath in the New Testament. We see them commanding all the other 9 of the 10 commandments but NEVER the Sabbath. As you all are fixated on an "INVISIBLE" commandment in the New Testament there needs to be proof that the property of Israel was not stolen by Gentiles (The Sabbath Day). So far nothing but machine gun blasting of scriptures with no sound argument presented. The 4th commandment was never removed... it was stolen by Adventists who aren't Jews and have no right to it.

I know I have addressed this before but for the sake of argument, I will again give my perspective... you say that because the Sabbath was never reiterated to be kept by the gentiles that it doesn't apply to us. But, imo, there are some fundamental issues with that premise. First, you know that omission is not the same as rejection... therefore just because something wasn't endorsed doesn't mean it's not still valid. No where in the NT is there contention of the day of worship in any of the epistles The forth Commandment is the only one that identifies the Lord God as Creator of Heaven and earth... this creates a seal of the living God of His name, title, and dominion. Also, the fact that the fourth Commandment is the only one that reaches back to creation for it's beginning is something that cannot be ignored.

Another thing that can't be ignored is the separation of the tables of stone written by God's own finger... by who's authority was the fourth Commandment chiseled off those tablets? All agree that the other nine are still legitimate in both letter and spirit but somehow the fourth is said to be spiritual only. What has been done to the authority of the 4th would never stand the test of scrutiny if done to any of the other nine. To me, God wrote 10 and therefore, without a "thus sayeth the Lord" to contest that fact, the ten still stand as written.
Therein lies the dichotomy... you say because it wasn't endorsed in the NT, that nullifies the 4th... whereas I say, unless God says otherwise, His Commandments stand as written.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I know I have addressed this before but for the sake of argument, I will again give my perspective... you say that because the Sabbath was never reiterated to be kept by the gentiles that it doesn't apply to us. But, imo, there are some fundamental issues with that premise. First, you know that omission is not the same as rejection... therefore just because something wasn't endorsed doesn't mean it's not still valid. No where in the NT is there contention of the day of worship in any of the epistles The forth Commandment is the only one that identifies the Lord God as Creator of Heaven and earth... this creates a seal of the living God of His name, title, and dominion. Also, the fact that the fourth Commandment is the only one that reaches back to creation for it's beginning is something that cannot be ignored.

Another thing that can't be ignored is the separation of the tables of stone written by God's own finger... by who's authority was the fourth Commandment chiseled off those tablets? All agree that the other nine are still legitimate in both letter and spirit but somehow the fourth is said to be spiritual only. What has been done to the authority of the 4th would never stand the test of scrutiny if done to any of the other nine. To me, God wrote 10 and therefore, without a "thus sayeth the Lord" to contest that fact, the ten still stand as written.
Therein lies the dichotomy... you say because it wasn't endorsed in the NT, that nullifies the 4th... whereas I say, unless God says otherwise, His Commandments stand as written.

The fourth could have EASILY be mentioned as a commandment.. the FACT it wasn't anywhere in the NEW TESTAMENT really is a huge problem for binding Christians to it. Your group constantly tries to use the lame argument that since some other group did it that God commanded to do it we also MUST do it to, the fact it was written on Tablets of stone doesn't make it any more binding on it because the Sabbath was expressed as Israel's property it was what made them different than others (Gentiles). The fact GENTILES at that time were excluded from keeping the Sabbath until they became Jews via circumcision flies in the face of any argument that they are somehow bound today because the nonsensical argument that Christians are instant Jews... just add Jesus and thus bound to Mosaic Laws... ridiculous.

Till you prove to everyone here that someone of authority over GENTILE CHRISTIANS command the Sabbath Day of us we don't need to do it any more than we need to wear certain fabrics or make sure we isolate women during their periods or whatever.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The fourth could have EASILY be mentioned as a commandment.. the FACT it wasn't anywhere in the NEW TESTAMENT really is a huge problem for binding Christians to it. Your group constantly tries to use the lame argument that since some other group did it that God commanded to do it we also MUST do it to, the fact it was written on Tablets of stone doesn't make it any more binding on it because the Sabbath was expressed as Israel's property it was what made them different than others (Gentiles). The fact GENTILES at that time were excluded from keeping the Sabbath until they became Jews via circumcision flies in the face of any argument that they are somehow bound today because the nonsensical argument that Christians are instant Jews... just add Jesus and thus bound to Mosaic Laws... ridiculous.

Till you prove to everyone here that someone of authority over GENTILE CHRISTIANS command the Sabbath Day of us we don't need to do it any more than we need to wear certain fabrics or make sure we isolate women during their periods or whatever.

Well, obviously I don't have to prove anything to you nor is that my intention... I am merely sharing my understanding of the subject.

I see that you couldn't resist lumping the law inside the ark from the law that was outside... while not original, it's ok, you seem to be emboldened by it.

Just a quick question for you... how would you view a legislated day of worship? I'm not asking for your opinion on whether it will happen but what would be your thoughts if it did?

 

[Bob S]

BobS, it seems that you have a particular ax to grind with the SDA as you have testified here that you were once an adherent to Adventist doctrine...

I hope I have not given anyone the impression that I have an axe to grind with Adventist people. Some of my closest friends and family are Adventist. It is with the doctrines and the prophet I have an "axe" to grind. Saturday is a fine day to worship. I would never try to keep anyone from observing the day they choose. One of the fundamental doctrines of SDAs is the belief in Mrs Ellen G White was a prophet just as all the major prophets found in the Bible. If you want to know who Ellen White really was you need to read her part in the Great Disappointment (Jesus return in 1844) and her early false prophesies. She said, and the flock believes, that if we know about the Sabbath and refuse to keep it we all are lost eternally. She also believed that all other churches are Babylon. The SDA church is the only true church so she wrote.

to pick up on what Extraneous was saying, you don't seem to mind the Messianic's espousing Sabbath worship but are venomous against Adventists same belief. It's been my experience that those that come out of any denomination that they determine to be in error, are the most ardent critics of that former belief... just my experience.

Sorry you have missed my posts to Messianics about their beliefs. Some admit they do not believe the writings of the Apostle Paul, so it is hard to debate them with scripture. Adventists have a problem with Paul also.

I know more about Adventism than any other denomination. I have studied Adventism more than any other denomination, so why wouldn't I be not venomous, but adamant against adhering to your church. There are several reasons SDAs do not leave their church. One is the closeness of the people, secondly you refuse to study anything but what the church places before you. You have your key verses you learn and refuse to even comment on the important verses we who have studied our way out of the church present. Thirdly your minds are closed to any new revelation as we see demonstrated here on the forum.

When you say that we are teaching error and trying to proselytize others to do the same, it is because we are one of the few denom's that believe that the Decalogue as written is still in effect...

All I can say is that your heads are in the sand concerning the Decalogue. We have lead you to water, but we cannot make you drink. Of course you have to use the Decalogue to present your case, but we know from 2Cor 3:7-11 that he Decalogue was a temporary law and was superseded by the new covenant. With the writing of Paul you do not have an argument.

this is not Biblical trickery as you call it but simply how we see it. I challenge you to show a post where an SDA said that Sabbath observance is salvational. as a former member, you know that we believe that it is not a test of salvation until the sunday law comes into effect, so saying we are bullying others with the spectre of loss of salvation is disingenuous at best.

You are right. no one on the forum has come out and told the real truth as to what Adventism teaches. You took an oath before baptism and joining the church to believe the writings of the prophet Ellen White. Here is what she wrote and you have taken a vow to believe: Highlighting is mine.

It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." {6T 356.4} Ellen White


But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4} Ellen White

No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14} Ellen White

All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them. If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light.{HS 234.3} Ellen White

As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised, Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message, if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience. {RH, January 5, 1886 par. 2} Ellen White

Now you know the truth as to what you are to believe if you remain an Adventist.

Almost every premise against what we believe starts by removing the 4th Commandment as if God made a mistake in putting it in the decalogue and then proceed to show how obeying this one Commandment is akin to keeping the mosaic law... talk about Biblical acrobatics!

Did Paul make a mistake when he wrote: 2Cor3:
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, (the 10 commandments) came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory (temporary)though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

The last sentence clinches what Paul was telling us. the glorious 10 were only temporary. Will you argue with Paul and favor what you prophet has written?

The Decalogue was made by God for the nation of Israel. No other nation had the Decalogue. No other nation had the Sabbath law, no other people had the Sabbath law and Christians do not have the Sabbath law. If you would only study you too would know these truths. As of now all you are doing is parroting what your church tells you.

The message I would like to be giving on here is the 3 angels message but I have been shut down on numerous occasions for doing that. Even a reasoned discussion of the Godhead is disallowed even thought the case against the RC teaching is Biblically sound.... bizarre times we live in. At least it won't be long now till Christ comes and this whole 6000 year old mess can be done away with once an for all.

There are many messages I would like to present about Adventism that I cannot because the have nothing to do with Sabbath and the law. I have to debate those issues on another Christian forum that deals with Adventism.

 

[Sophrosyne]

No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14} Ellen White

All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them. If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light.{HS 234.3} Ellen White

As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised, Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message, if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience. {RH, January 5, 1886 par. 2} Ellen White

This is what disgusts me, as Adventists believe that those ignorant of the Sabbath Law can be saved if they reject it but those who know about it are now suddenly guilty. I called several adventists on the carpet asking them if they enjoyed teaching people about the Sabbath so they could be damned to hell when they refused to obey it. If they had just left everyone in ignorance (kept their mouth shut) these "un" Sabbath people could be saved. It was so "loving" to damn people by teaching them about the Sabbath......

 

[Extraneous]

This is what disgusts me, as Adventists believe that those ignorant of the Sabbath Law can be saved if they reject it but those who know about it are now suddenly guilty. I called several adventists on the carpet asking them if they enjoyed teaching people about the Sabbath so they could be damned to hell when they refused to obey it. If they had just left everyone in ignorance (kept their mouth shut) these "un" Sabbath people could be saved. It was so "loving" to damn people by teaching them about the Sabbath......

ECR seems like a nice guy, he seems reasonable and more edifying than a lot of people i have talked to in any denomination.

 

[Sophrosyne]

ECR seems like a nice guy, he seems reasonable and more edifying than a lot of people i have talked to in any denomination.

Being nice doesn't excuse someone from leading others astray.

 

[bugkiller]

BobS, it seems that you have a particular ax to grind with the SDA as you have testified here that you were once an adherent to Adventist doctrine.... to pick up on what Extraneous was saying, you don't seem to mind the Messianic's espousing Sabbath worship but are venomous against Adventists same belief. It's been my experience that those that come out of any denomination that they determine to be in error, are the most ardent critics of that former belief... just my experience.

When you say that we are teaching error and trying to proselytize others to do the same, it is because we are one of the few denom's that believe that the Decalogue as written is still in effect... this is not Biblical trickery as you call it but simply how we see it. I challenge you to show a post where an SDA said that Sabbath observance is salvational. as a former member, you know that we believe that it is not a test of salvation until the sunday law comes into effect, so saying we are bullying others with the spectre of loss of salvation is disingenuous at best.

Almost every premise against what we believe starts by removing the 4th Commandment as if God made a mistake in putting it in the decalogue and then proceed to show how obeying this one Commandment is akin to keeping the mosaic law... talk about Biblical acrobatics!

The message I would like to be giving on here is the 3 angels message but I have been shut down on numerous occasions for doing that. Even a reasoned discussion of the Godhead is disallowed even thought the case against the RC teaching is Biblically sound.... bizarre times we live in. At least it won't be long now till Christ comes and this whole 6000 year old mess can be done away with once an for all.

I'm sure I posted this picture a few years ago.

One can't possess salvation and participate with the mark of the beast. I used to have some other available to me.


bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I know I have addressed this before but for the sake of argument, I will again give my perspective... you say that because the Sabbath was never reiterated to be kept by the gentiles that it doesn't apply to us. But, imo, there are some fundamental issues with that premise. First, you know that omission is not the same as rejection... therefore just because something wasn't endorsed doesn't mean it's not still valid. No where in the NT is there contention of the day of worship in any of the epistles The forth Commandment is the only one that identifies the Lord God as Creator of Heaven and earth... this creates a seal of the living God of His name, title, and dominion. Also, the fact that the fourth Commandment is the only one that reaches back to creation for it's beginning is something that cannot be ignored.

Another thing that can't be ignored is the separation of the tables of stone written by God's own finger... by who's authority was the fourth Commandment chiseled off those tablets? All agree that the other nine are still legitimate in both letter and spirit but somehow the fourth is said to be spiritual only. What has been done to the authority of the 4th would never stand the test of scrutiny if done to any of the other nine. To me, God wrote 10 and therefore, without a "thus sayeth the Lord" to contest that fact, the ten still stand as written.
Therein lies the dichotomy... you say because it wasn't endorsed in the NT, that nullifies the 4th... whereas I say, unless God says otherwise, His Commandments stand as written.

This is specifically addressed in Jeremiah prophecy stated in 31:31-33. It is verified in a couple ways in the NT. The number one verifier is Jesus saying in the Gospels This is the New Testament. Another that comes to mind is Peter's verification of Joel 2:28,29 to both Jews and Gentiles.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Heb 8:6-10 quotes Jer 31:31-33 verbatim and says it still applies - to this very day.

It also informs us that it is Christ that was speaking the LAW of God at Sinai.

 

[BobRyan]

This is what disgusts me, as Adventists believe that those ignorant of the Sabbath Law can be saved if they reject it but those who know about it are now suddenly guilty. I called several adventists on the carpet asking them if they enjoyed teaching people about the Sabbath so they could be damned to hell when they refused to obey it. If they had just left everyone in ignorance (kept their mouth shut) these "un" Sabbath people could be saved. It was so "loving" to damn people by teaching them about the Sabbath......

I am getting that a lot from atheists as well over on the evolution debate section of this board -- claiming that they should not know about Christianity so they would not be held accountable.

 

[BobRyan]

I hope I have not given anyone the impression that I have an axe to grind with Adventist people. .

Now that is pretty funny.

Thanks for sharing it.

There have been as many if not more non-SDAs posting on this section of the board at times - in favor of the TEN Commandments - and you spend more time calling them all SDAs or "something like SDAs" in your responses even though you have been told many times that this is not accurate.

 

[bugkiller]

Heb 8:6-10 quotes Jer 31:31-33 verbatim and says it still applies - to this very day.

It also informs us that it is Christ that was speaking the LAW of God at Sinai.

Nope!!!

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

All I can say is that your heads are in the sand concerning the Decalogue. We have lead you to water, but we cannot make you drink. Of course you have to use the Decalogue to present your case, but we know from 2Cor 3:7-11 that he Decalogue was a temporary law and was superseded by the new covenant. With the writing of Paul you do not have an argument. .

Total fluff in that post - since we have seen that even the majority of your own pro-Sunday scholars reject your Ten-Commandment-denying model.

Feb 13, 2015 #4

Go back to page one -- read "at least" the first two pages of the thread.

 

[BobRyan]

Nope!!!

bugkiller

yep

 

[FredVB]

God tests us to see if we will obey His instructions, but those instructions are not to keep OT sabbath. His instructions are to follow the spirit and to walk in it, rest in it, and his instructions are taught by the spirit. The Sabbath is only a shadow. Just as the Jews followed the ten commandments, given through Moses, which included the Sabbath, so we follow the apostles commands, given through Christ, and we rest in his spirit. The Lord never commanded us to keep the OT Sabbath, or Sunday keeping either. The Sabbath keeping is in following the spirit and resting in it. That's the way i see it. If this were not true then Galatians 5 is not true.

Galatians 5:5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

So, we are to really believe that Yahweh God said what was to test "us" his people, and it didn't mean it was meant and important? You and others don't have a day of rest meant for you? Do you just never rest? If you tell others not to have that, is this with love? Love is not precluded with obedience, don't you know?