The snare of devotion to Mary.

[patricius79]

It was a "what if" illustration. I could have used another one....like taking big doses of LSD, for instance. We have had people advocate that, saying it brought them closer to God.

But yes, I can imagine someone saying that an appreciation of other gods has given him a perspective that made him appreciate Christ, etc. etc. People come up with unconventional ideas about God all the time.

The point remains that just because something makes you feel closer to Christ--whether it be chocolate sundaes, wearing a monk's robe, doing Transcendental Mediation, ANYTHING--that does not make the behavior right to do. The end doesn't justify the means with this.

Who is claiming that devotion to the Mother of God is based only on feelings?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Who is claiming that devotion to the Mother of God is based only on feelings?

Not I. Actions do speak louder than words.

 

[patricius79]

Not I. Actions do speak louder than words.

I think it's beautiful that those people appear to be venerating the Mother of God, our Lady.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think it's beautiful that those people appear to be venerating the Mother of God, our Lady.

One can certainly say that.

 

[Panevino]

One can certainly say that.

Worship for Catholics and most Protestants is different. Without the Catholic understanding and participation in the mass combined with the form of worship for some Protestants it is understandable why they may be confused - misinterpret the intention of those shown in this picture. However they remain misinterpretations

 

[Albion]

Worship for Catholics and most Protestants is different. Without the Catholic understanding and participation in the mass combined with the form of worship for some Protestants it is understandable why they may be confused - misinterpret the intention of those shown in this picture. However they remain misinterpretations

I'd say it's quite evident that the picture does not show a Mass in progress.

 

[patricius79]

I'd say it's quite evident that the picture does not show a Mass in progress.

I agree. But would kneel in front of painting of Mary, too, not because I believe that that painting is God, or that Mary is God, but because God is in Mary in a unique way. If I remember right, the 2nd Council of Nicea defended the use of Icons after the Iconoclast controversy, and said that Christians were right to venerate them along with the Scriptures.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I agree. But would kneel in front of painting of Mary, too, not because I believe that that painting is God, or that Mary is God, but because God is in Mary in a unique way. If I remember right, the 2nd Council of Nicea defended the use of Icons after the Iconoclast controversy, and said that Christians were right to venerate them along with the Scriptures.

You are the individual who identified such actions as being worship. If you believe that, then it is evident that Catholics worship Mary.

 

[Albion]

I agree. But would kneel in front of painting of Mary, too, not because I believe that that painting is God, or that Mary is God, but because God is in Mary in a unique way. If I remember right, the 2nd Council of Nicea defended the use of Icons after the Iconoclast controversy, and said that Christians were right to venerate them along with the Scriptures.

The idea that these people who appear to be praying to Mary are venerating her or the icon itself is quite a stretch.

 

[patricius79]

The idea that these people who appear to be praying to Mary are venerating her or the icon itself is quite a stretch.

How so?

 

[Albion]

How so?

Because what they're doing is something else. It was even described as a Mass in an earlier post, so we should not be arguing whether what is pictured is akin to hanging a painting of her on one's bedroom wall or naming a child after her, etc.

 

[patricius79]

Because what they're doing is something else..

I don't see that.

 

[Arsenios]

Not I. Actions do speak louder than words.

We have three people kneeling [at a specially built kneeler?] placed before a somewhat Russian Riazza style icon of the Blessed Virgin, flanked by two not yet identified statues, two regarding the icon, and the third perhaps in prayer [in white]... The icon appears to be perhaps in a chapel, possibly a museum. The flowers are fresh...

The Eastern Orthodox do not have the Latin tradition of DEVOTION to the Mother of our Lord... The fact that she is the "Second Eve" does not bestow for us devotion to her as its fruit... We do entreat Her for helps in times of troubles, and understand Her to be a Typos of the Church, the Woman persecuted by the Dragon in Revelation... For us to be DEVOTED to Her would mean that we desire to become one with Her, and this we reserve for the Lamb, because THAT union is the Marriage of the Lamb Whose Bride is the Church...

iow It is a profound Mystery, this union and oneness with Christ...

The only one to have surpassed Her in human flesh is Christ, and because Christ came into flesh THROUGH Her, so we in turn come to Christ through Her, and just as She gave birth to Christ, so also, in the Baptism of the Church, does the Church give birth to Christ IN us...

I have often wondered if simple Church membership is what Christ had in mind, when He told the man who had one talent who hid it and gave it back to Him, that He should have put it in the bank to earn interest...

Arsenios

ps bbbbbbb - Thank you for your kind words, and your prayers...

A.

 

[bbbbbbb]

We have three people kneeling [at a specially built kneeler?] placed before a somewhat Russian Riazza style icon of the Blessed Virgin, flanked by two not yet identified statues, two regarding the icon, and the third perhaps in prayer [in white]... The icon appears to be perhaps in a chapel, possibly a museum. The flowers are fresh...

The Eastern Orthodox do not have the Latin tradition of DEVOTION to the Mother of our Lord... The fact that she is the "Second Eve" does not bestow for us devotion to her as its fruit... We do entreat Her for helps in times of troubles, and understand Her to be a Typos of the Church, the Woman persecuted by the Dragon in Revelation... For us to be DEVOTED to Her would mean that we desire to become one with Her, and this we reserve for the Lamb, because THAT union is the Marriage of the Lamb Whose Bride is the Church...

iow It is a profound Mystery, this union and oneness with Christ...

The only one to have surpassed Her in human flesh is Christ, and because Christ came into flesh THROUGH Her, so we in turn come to Christ through Her, and just as She gave birth to Christ, so also, in the Baptism of the Church, does the Church give birth to Christ IN us...

I have often wondered if simple Church membership is what Christ had in mind, when He told the man who had one talent who hid it and gave it back to Him, that He should have put it in the bank to earn interest...

Arsenios

ps bbbbbbb - Thank you for your kind words, and your prayers...

A.

Thank you for your input. As always, you have provided gentle words. It agree that simple Church membership need not become complex. Devotion to our Lord and Savior is what makes all the difference.

 

[Panevino]

I

I'd say it's quite evident that the picture does not show a Mass in progress.

I don't think you understood my post. It is a little unclear. I did not suggest it showed a mass

 

[Albion]

I

I don't think you understood my post. It is a little unclear. I did not suggest it showed a mass

All right. However, here's the sequence of posts...

The picture was of women in kneeling in front of an altar with an icon and statues of the Madonna. It was presented as evidence of saint worship. You followed that by saying this:

Worship for Catholics and most Protestants is different. Without the Catholic understanding and participation in the mass....

Since you introduced the idea of the Mass and were commenting on the previous claim about the picture, you can see why anyone would think you were saying that it showed us something about Mass.

 

[Arsenios]

All right. However, here's the sequence of posts...

The picture was of women in kneeling in front of an altar with an icon and statues of the Madonna. It was presented as evidence of saint worship. You followed that by saying this:


Since you introduced the idea of the Mass and were commenting on the previous claim about the picture, you can see why anyone would think you were saying that it showed us something about Mass.

I did not see an Altar in the picture, but did notice the statuary...
An Altar is the Table where the Gifts are Consecrated...
All that was there was a rail to apparently keep the lipstick off the Icon...
Because Christians kiss icons...
And lips can get messy...

Jes' sayin'...



Arsenios

 

[Albion]

I did not see an Altar in the picture, but did notice the statuary...
An Altar is the Table where the Gifts are Consecrated...

What is showing does appear to be an altar like the side altars in many churches. But whichever it is, I don't see that it affects our discussion.

 

[Arsenios]

What is showing does appear to be an altar like the side altars in many churches.

I do not have a lot of experience with other Church's altars... Is an approach rail, or a kneeling rail, before an icon an altar, say in the Anglican Church? I thought an Altar had to be a Table...

But whichever it is, I don't see that it affects our discussion.

Roger that!

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

I do not have a lot of experience with other Church's altars... Is an approach rail, or a kneeling rail, before an icon an altar, say in the Anglican Church? I thought an Altar had to be a Table...

Given the Vatican style of altars, this could be one in a Roman Catholic Church, yes. You do see what could be used as an altar/table showing in that picture, and it appears to have a faircloth upon it.

You may be right to say it's not, but unless we could see the whole thing close-up, I don't know that we can say which it is.