Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[iamlamad]

So that means the twelve stars in Revelation 12:1 are 12 angels right? No. They're the 12 tribes of Israel.

The 2 lampstands are the 2 witnesses because it says. The 7 lampstands are the 7 churches because it says.

In reality the 12 stars are what really does look like stars in the constellation Virgo. But in 2 BC when Jesus was born, 3 of the 12 were really planets. Rev. 12: 1-5 is a parentheses speaking of the birth of Christ and how the devil tried to kill him.

 

[iamlamad]

I need you look at Zechariah 3:8 REAL no RRREEEAAAALL close. Joshua and his friends who sit before him are a SIGN, TYPE, SYMBOLIC REPRESENTATION, OF Things come. Stop listening to commentaries. Nobody can tell you what I'm saying. Joshua is a type of the Branch. Zerubbabel is a type of the witness. Thy fellows who sit before thee. Then 3 verses after Joshua 3:8, the same encounter, with the same angel, the same prophet is roused and sees a vision, of objects. These objects have NOTHING to do with the second temple era. And, EVERYTHING to do with the 2 witnesses. Those objects are Gods message to the witness. Zerubbabel is a type of him. Not because I said so, but because the Lord told the angel and the angel told this to Zechariah 3:8.

Commentaries are good, but as you say, many times lead people astray. I agree with you here.

 

[Fusion77]

:-( But that is not the Hebrew word used in Zec. 4:9.

Hmmm. A interlinear shows 3248, and NOT 3245. Why would Strong's show a different form of this word than what is really there?

Did I tell you it's been veiled for 2500 years.

 

[Fusion77]

:-( But that is not the Hebrew word used in Zec. 4:9.

Hmmm. A interlinear shows 3248, and NOT 3245. Why would Strong's show a different form of this word than what is really there?

Because when the translators went to translate it, it makes no sense. The translators, to try and make sense out of it, made it a verb. Obviously, assuming, well it is Zerubbabel we'll just say laid the foundation. Translating is not easy business and translators have to do their best. But, the truth is it's not talking about the foundation of the second temple. Again, he didn't build it. We know that from Ezra 3:10 and Ezra 5:16


Friend, the second temple era is a type and shadow of us these end times. Zechariah 6:12-15 do you think this means a physical temple? Do you see the people from far off that build the temple, in Zechariah6:15 That's the end time church. You'll be here. I wish it weren't so because I have a family. The Holy Spirit won't be taken away, but will be ever present in the "Building" of the heavenly temple...living stones.

 

[Fusion77]

In reality the 12 stars are what really does look like stars in the constellation Virgo. But in 2 BC when Jesus was born, 3 of the 12 were really planets. Rev. 12: 1-5 is a parentheses speaking of the birth of Christ and how the devil tried to kill him.

Genesis 37:9-10 the stars are the 12 tribes the sun is Jacob (Israel), the patriarch. The moon is Rachel one of the matriarchs and mother of Benjamin and Joseph.
Because the bible tells us.

Man these commentaries are killin' me.

 

[Fusion77]

TRue, two people: I think Enoch and Elijah.

But I think the church of today is a different church than the Jewish churches. They disappeared after AD 70. Today the church is mostly made up of Gentile believers. And God did say "until the fullness of the Gentiles" comes in.

Joshua the high priest son of Jehozadak the Branch type of Jesus Joshua = Yeshua, Jesus = Yeshua Joshua = Jesus. Joshua the high priest= Jesus our high Priest. Yeshua, Jesus, Joshua all = Jehovah saves. Joshua son of Jehozadak. Jehozadak means Jehovah justified. High priest crowned as King in Zechariah 6:11-12, demonstrating the joining of both offices of our King and high priest.

Zerubbabel the heavenly name of the witness. The earthly Zerubbabel was a type of the spiritual. Zechariah 3:8. Zerubbabel is incorrectly misunderstood as meaning begotten of Babylon (the name is misunderstood). However, it means sower of seed in Babylon (zera) to sow of scatter seed (Babylon). The seed meaning the word of God Luke 8:11. Babylon figurative of bondage and slavery to sin as is Egypt. he will be a gentile believer, and a sower of seed in end time Babylon.

There's one witness. Don't know about the other one though.

 

[Fusion77]

Commentaries are good, but as you say, many times lead people astray. I agree with you here.

Want to hear something really wild? the temple structure took 3.5 years to complete if my math is correct. Assuming Darius made his ascent to King in September. After its completion, It was rededicated about 43 days later. They started building the structure in the 6th month of Elul (August, early September) 2nd year of Darius's reign. If he became me King in September, that would be at the end of his 2nd year. It was finished on the 3rd day of Adar in Darius's 6th year. This would be 3.5 years which is significant to the last 3.5 years. It very well could've been exactly 1335 days from the command to rebuild Haggai 1:1-2 until its dedication Ezra 6:16-6:19. Type and shadow. According to Zechariah 3:8

 

[keras]

We cannot think someone's dreams have any relevance to the global situation at present.
Strange, but John, a fellow believer (and a disciple of our Lord) saw much of the future in visions. If God chooses to show the future in a vision of today, He certainly is able. I believe He does this frequently.

John was an ancient prophet, in the same category as Isaiah, etc. God doesn't do that today, as we are now in the time that most of those prophesies will come true. Psalms 74:9

A pretrib rapture is in the bible. I am just sorry you can't see it. Millions do, though.

In the Bible is it? I know the Bible very well and nowhere is it said that God will take His people to heaven. You only get that idea by adding words and reading prophesies to mean what you want them to mean.
God's plan was to have a people to be a light to the nations and His witness's. Ancient Israel failed in this task, but God doesn't change and soon His righteous people will occupy all of the holy Land, that is the destiny and the fulfilment for all true believers.
At least I admire you for your determination to promote the pre-trib rapture, but you and those millions of hopeful commuters to the great Disneyland in the sky will be terribly disappointed.

 

[iamlamad]

John was an ancient prophet, in the same category as Isaiah, etc. God doesn't do that today, as we are now in the time that most of those prophesies will come true. Psalms 74:9

In the Bible is it? I know the Bible very well and nowhere is it said that God will take His people to heaven. You only get that idea by adding words and reading prophesies to mean what you want them to mean.
God's plan was to have a people to be a light to the nations and His witness's. Ancient Israel failed in this task, but God doesn't change and soon His righteous people will occupy all of the holy Land, that is the destiny and the fulfilment for all true believers.
At least I admire you for your determination to promote the pre-trib rapture, but you and those millions of hopeful commuters to the great Disneyland in the sky will be terribly disappointed.

No, it is all the mindset of the one reading. I read that Jesus went to prepare homes for us. Did He go to Jerusalem? No, He LEFT Jerusalem for the New Jerusalem. Then said He was going to prepare houses for us.

It is quite simple: I believe this - you don't. The INTENT of this passage is that He will take us to the places prepared, not take the places prepared to us. Does Paul tell us He descends with the New Jerusalem with Him? I don't read that. He comes with at least one angel, but no city foursquare. Apparently you think this is adding meaning. I think it is just understanding the intent of the Author.

God doesn't do that today...

Where have you been? That theory that the gifts of the Spirit left with the last Disciple of Jesus is silly! These gifts were gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT, not gifts of the disciples. He, the Holy Spirit is STILL WITH US. One of these gifts is the gift of prophecy. God is still using this gift today.

 

[iamlamad]

Want to hear something really wild? the temple structure took 3.5 years to complete if my math is correct. Assuming Darius made his ascent to King in September. After its completion, It was rededicated about 43 days later. They started building the structure in the 6th month of Elul (August, early September) 2nd year of Darius's reign. If he became me King in September, that would be at the end of his 2nd year. It was finished on the 3rd day of Adar in Darius's 6th year. This would be 3.5 years which is significant to the last 3.5 years. It very well could've been exactly 1335 days from the command to rebuild Haggai 1:1-2 until its dedication Ezra 6:16-6:19. Type and shadow. According to Zechariah 3:8

Very interesting. I have a friend that absolutely will not preach something from the New Testament until God shows him the shadow from the old.

 

[iamlamad]

Joshua the high priest son of Jehozadak the Branch type of Jesus Joshua = Yeshua, Jesus = Yeshua Joshua = Jesus. Joshua the high priest= Jesus our high Priest. Yeshua, Jesus, Joshua all = Jehovah saves. Joshua son of Jehozadak. Jehozadak means Jehovah justified. High priest crowned as King in Zechariah 6:11-12, demonstrating the joining of both offices of our King and high priest.

Zerubbabel the heavenly name of the witness. The earthly Zerubbabel was a type of the spiritual. Zechariah 3:8. Zerubbabel is incorrectly misunderstood as meaning begotten of Babylon (the name is misunderstood). However, it means sower of seed in Babylon (zera) to sow of scatter seed (Babylon). The seed meaning the word of God Luke 8:11. Babylon figurative of bondage and slavery to sin as is Egypt. he will be a gentile believer, and a sower of seed in end time Babylon.

There's one witness. Don't know about the other one though.

I guess we will see. I have met people silly enough to think THEY were one of the two.

 

[iamlamad]

Genesis 37:9-10 the stars are the 12 tribes the sun is Jacob (Israel), the patriarch. The moon is Rachel one of the matriarchs and mother of Benjamin and Joseph.
Because the bible tells us.

Man these commentaries are killin' me.

Yes, certainly what John wrote was to identify the woman as ISRAEL. No question there. But I was speaking of the heavenly SIGN. I searched from 8 BC to 2 AD and only ONE PLACE in time do we find the exactly sign in the sky except Sept. 2 BC.

 

[iamlamad]

Because when the translators went to translate it, it makes no sense. The translators, to try and make sense out of it, made it a verb. Obviously, assuming, well it is Zerubbabel we'll just say laid the foundation. Translating is not easy business and translators have to do their best. But, the truth is it's not talking about the foundation of the second temple. Again, he didn't build it. We know that from Ezra 3:10 and Ezra 5:16


Friend, the second temple era is a type and shadow of us these end times. Zechariah 6:12-15 do you think this means a physical temple? Do you see the people from far off that build the temple, in Zechariah6:15 That's the end time church. You'll be here. I wish it weren't so because I have a family. The Holy Spirit won't be taken away, but will be ever present in the "Building" of the heavenly temple...living stones.

I have never doubted that Jesus will build the temple of the last chapters of Ezekiel. Only in a way will the Holy Spirit be taken away: there are millions in the world today anointed by Him. When they go up in the rapture, the anointing goes with them. So in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, there is no one on earth anointed of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hazrus]

No, it is all the mindset of the one reading. I read that Jesus went to prepare homes for us. Did He go to Jerusalem? No, He LEFT Jerusalem for the New Jerusalem. Then said He was going to prepare houses for us.

It is quite simple: I believe this - you don't. The INTENT of this passage is that He will take us to the places prepared, not take the places prepared to us. Does Paul tell us He descends with the New Jerusalem with Him? I don't read that. He comes with at least one angel, but no city foursquare. Apparently you think this is adding meaning. I think it is just understanding the intent of the Author.

God doesn't do that today...

Where have you been? That theory that the gifts of the Spirit left with the last Disciple of Jesus is silly! These gifts were gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT, not gifts of the disciples. He, the Holy Spirit is STILL WITH US. One of these gifts is the gift of prophecy. God is still using this gift today.

iamlamad, while I rarely agree with you, I think you are spot on here.

 

[keras]

No, it is all the mindset of the one reading. I read that Jesus went to prepare homes for us. Did He go to Jerusalem? No, He LEFT Jerusalem for the New Jerusalem. Then said He was going to prepare houses for us.

It is quite simple: I believe this - you don't. The INTENT of this passage is that He will take us to the places prepared, not take the places prepared to us. Does Paul tell us He descends with the New Jerusalem with Him? I don't read that. He comes with at least one angel, but no city foursquare. Apparently you think this is adding meaning. I think it is just understanding the intent of the Author.

Unfortunately for your belief, we know from Revelation 21:1-2, that; the New Jerusalem comes down to earth; made ready like a bride for her husband....
So the true meaning of John 14:1-3, is that Jesus is in heaven preparing the new Jerusalem, making it ready for the day it will come down from heaven, at the end of the Millennium and only then will it be inhabited.
The rapturists belief that they will go to heaven to live in this new Jerusalem, is just another wrong assumption, made without really finding out what will actually happen.

 

[n2thelight]

You are misunderstanding Revelation 12:9, thinking that passage indicates that Satan is not now on this earth. Satan is on this earth, and also the second heaven (the cosmos) - and he currently has freedom of movement between the two.

When the future war in heaven (the second heaven) takes place, it will be right after the two witnesses come back to life and ascend to heaven (the third heaven).

There is the big earthquake in Jerusalem. And the 7th trumpet sounds. It is not at the end of the 7 years as some reason, because they are not understanding it says the kingdoms of this world "are become" the kingdoms of God and His Christ. It a process is that starts of taking away Satan's dominion overshadowing this world.

The kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of God and his Christ - that unfolding is the mystery of God that should be finished, in Revelation 10. John is given a little book to eat, and that the contents of that book is what we read in Revelation after chapter 10. The seventh trumpet is not at the end of the seven years; it is at the mid-point, just a the person has become the beast and just killed the two witnesses. Which, God at that point has become fed up with Satan and begins to prosecute him and his kingdom. Beginning with casting Satan down to earth.

Revelation 10
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What God declared to the prophets is that His Kingdom would come to earth and rule over the kingdoms of men. In Daniel 2 it is in the days of the ten kings of the fourth empire. In their time, God will setup his everlasting Kingdom here on earth.

The ten kings' time is in Revelation 17:17 as their pledge their kingdom to the beast for that last 42 months in Revelation 13. The ten horns have their crowns in Revelation 13:1, signifying their rule will the beast the 42 months. During that 42 months, Satan will be restricted to here on earth. Right now, he has freedom of movement.

The first action of the kingdoms of this world becoming under the rule of the kingdom of God, - instead of the kingdom of Satan - in that process is to take away Satan's place in the "second" heaven. That's where the war will take place. Satan and his angels don't reside (not allowed to) in the third heaven because it would be chaos there.

The second heaven in the cosmos. It says in Revelation 12, that their place would be found there (heaven) no more. Not only Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth, but the place of their residency, the cosmos, will be removed in Revelation 6, the sixth seal.

What the status of Satan is right now is that he is not restricted to this earth. But that doesn't mean that he doesn't roam this earth as part of his freedom of movement.

"the evil day" is just saying this time in history, which has been since the garden of eden fall. The evil day exists because Satan is allowed to roam around creating trouble. When Satan and his angels are cast down, it will still be the evil day - and will continue to be until Satan is bound and cast into the bottomless pit.

You are confused will just leave you with

How can satan get kicked out after the two witnesses are killed,when it's him that kills them?

 

[Psalm3704]

It is the same event and you have yet to respond to the post that debunked your statement “How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down”.

Still waiting to hear a scriptural response to that post.

There is none! No scriptural support of a post trib rapture in Matthew 24:31. Only people like yourself always promoting a rapture here without taking into consideration the elects are gathered from heaven. Here's your scriptural response: "In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down...silly clown."

Where's your scriptural evidence Matthew 24:31 is the rapture? Because you think so?

No not really the main point still stands, you were trying to play off of the specific wording to say passages that are the same were different. It still matters not trump, trumpet, trump of God, as the deciding factor

That's just your opinion, which doesn't hold much credibility, nor scriptural support. Just a bunch of "I think so" theories. Context is key, your opinions are not. Context is everything, your opinions are not. Context is what stands, your opinion does not as it'll be proven wrong once Christ comes for the church and the tribulation begins with sudden destruction.

Bad example the context is different in the two you show here. The context is the same in the passages we are really discussing. Try addressing the real point.

It's already been addressed. You just haven't figured it out yet cause it keeps going over your head. How long is this thread now with others having tried to explain the rapture to you as well? The only way you'll figure it out is when the rapture happens, millions of people just vanished and you'll still be on CF debating with others on this same thread over the timing of the rapture.

Silly clown!

I do not believe anyone was discussing Rev 8:2 when I said “They are all God’s trumpet’s”. Nor were we talking about those 7 angels.

Exactly! This is why you don't get it! If all trumpets are the same, why does the 7 trumpets being handed out to the 7 angels not referred as 7 trumpets of God? Why are the 7 angels not referred as 7 archangels? Just like everything else, this too went over your head.









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[Psalm3704]

Do you always try to find what you're looking in places where they are obviously not there?

When you go shopping at the grocery store, do you always search the pet food isle for produce? Do you always search the for ribeye steak in the dairy isle? When you don't find what you're looking for in those isles, do you whine to the employees for not using common sense in your search?

Case and point. Examples below.

24. The Great Multitude hold PALM BRANCHES in their hands (like Israel did when they celebrated Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey). The 24 ELDERS have “stephonos” CROWNS (given for “winning a race” and “obtaining a victory”) upon their heads.

The word for crowns in Rev 4:4 is the same Greek word as in Rev. 6:2, Rev. 12:1, Rev. 12:3, Rev. 13:1, Rev 14:14 and Rev. 19:12. Scripture doesn’t say why they were given their crowns. The Elders are not members or representatives of the church.

Why would you look for the great multitude in Revelation 4:4 when John first introduced them in Revelation 7:9. {Doh!)

Why would you look for crowns being given out: (given for "winning a race" and "obtaining a victory") in Rev 6:2, Rev 12:1, Rev 12:3, Rev 13:1, Rev 14:14 and Rev 19:12 when Paul told us it's in 1 Corinthians 9:24-29 and 2 Timothy 4:7-8. (Dah!)

Silly clown! Do people go up or down during the rapture?

25. The Great Multitude CRY WITH A LOUD VOICE. The 24 ELDERS of the Church SING A NEW SONG.

Rev. 5:8-9 the 4 beasts sang the same song.

Once again, John did not introduced the great multitude until Revelation 7:9. Answer found in Revelation 7:10-12 (Dah!)

Silly clown! Do people go up or down during the rapture?

26. The Great Multitude come OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION (the LAST half of Daniel’s 70th week). The 24 ELDERS come out of the AGE OF THE CHURCH.

What scripture tells you the 24 elders come out of the “AGE OF THE CHURCH”? Please post it.

Do you know who the 24 elders represent or who they are?

First answer this question. In a rapture, do people go up or down?









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[Psalm3704]

You have forget to include the sentence Unto the Coming of the Lord 1 Thessalonians 4:15 which relate the Trump of God directly with the Coming of Jesus in Glory AFTER the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31

No I didn't forget. I can't believe you need verse 15 to figure out what verses 16-17 means.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 NKJV
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.​

Okay, here it is. Now, it this coming of the Lord for the church in a rapture or not?

the great sound of a trumpet is Jesus' voice sounding the resurrection and giving the order to the angels to gather them up with the elect still alive ...

You're speculating Riberra. Where in the bible does it say the trumpet sounding is Jesus' voice?

Matthew 24:31 said they are gathered from HEAVEN! How do you gather up when gathering from HEAVEN?







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[n2thelight]

John 14:1
"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me."

Jesus is telling us that He doesn't want us to worry. As we go through this fourteenth chapter, we will return to this verse several times. If you love the Lord Jesus Christ, and you believe on Him, then you don't have anything to worry about. Now He is going to tell us why.

John 14:2
"In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Have you ever heard Christians say before, "I have a mansion in the sky"? Friend, that is not what "mansions" is talking about here, however it is even more beautiful then those thoughts of a large house in the sky. Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ".

It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.

What is the subject of this chapter,? "Don't worry." Jesus is telling you don't worry at any time if you believe.