Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Postvieww]

Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

You must think there's 7 archangels right?

DEBUNKED!

Worst nonsense I've ever heard!










.

I do not believe anyone was discussing Rev 8:2 when I said “They are all God’s trumpet’s”. Nor were we talking about those 7 angels.

 

[iamlamad]

This is just the beginning. The golden oil represents the anointing power of the Holy Spirit. That vision is Gods message to Zerubbabel. The Holy Spirit would not be involved in building a physical temple. This is a covenant God has made with the witness, so to speak. Tell me anything else in Zechariah 4 that you think pertains to the second temple era and I'll explain it. You'll have to pay attention though.

Sorry, but you lost me on your first theory. You can't fight history! He DID build the temple, and these verses EXPLAIN what the meaning is.

If perhaps there is a second meaning, relating to the two witnesses, That would be another theory.

 

[iamlamad]

The very pretentious and most unbelievable idea of them sitting on the clouds and looking down from heaven that the rapture proponents have, is fiction of the worst kind. Satan is delighted that people believe such rubbish.
There is no removal to heaven of any people group to heaven anywhere in the Bible.
There is no war, just God's wrath upon the nations.
Jewish boys, or anyone's dreams and delusions should be taken with a grain of salt.

That's your theory: it is simply wrong. You may not believe in dreams and visions. They are SCRIPTURAL.

 

[Fusion77]

That theory takes the verses 2-3 OUT OF CONTEXT.

4 So I asked the angel who was speaking with me, “What are these, my lord?” 5 Then the angel who was speaking with me answered me, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 6 Then he said to me, “This [continuous supply of oil] is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel [prince of Judah], saying, ‘Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit [of whom the oil is a symbol],’ says the Lord of hosts. 7 ‘What are you, O great mountain [of obstacles]? Before Zerubbabel [who will rebuild the temple] you will become a plain (insignificant)! And he will bring out the capstone [of the new temple] with loud shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”’”

Sorry, my friend, but this is already HISTORY: history books TELL US that He DID build that temple. You can't UNDO history with a theory.

The supply of oil is the anointing power of the Holy Spirit in the witness. Zechariah 4:9 says his hands laid the foundation of "this house". The Holy Spirit Zerubbabel did NOT lay the foundation of the second temple. Ezra 3:10 Ezra 5:16 He DID NOT even supervise the work Ezra 3:9. Who is present in supervising? Everyone EXCEPT Zerubbabel. All he did was appoint Levites 20 years and older, along with EVERY OTHER returned captive. Then he's gone whoosh, not involved in the laying of the foundation.


Look at the original word for foundation in Zechariah 4:9. It's a NOUN, no action. It has one other occurrence psalm 87:1. You think this talking about a physical foundation? You're reading a commentary which is incorrect. I'm bringing information for the Lord Himself.

 

[Fusion77]

Sorry, but you lost me on your first theory. You can't fight history! He DID build the temple, and these verses EXPLAIN what the meaning is.

If perhaps there is a second meaning, relating to the two witnesses, That would be another theory.

He didn't touch the foundation. Ezra 3:10, Ezra 5:16 once you realize the foundation isn't physical you know the capstone isn't either. The word for foundation in Zechariah 4:9 has 1 other occurrence it's a Feminine NOUN Yesudah H3248 Psalms 87:1.

 

[Postvieww]

Psalm 3704 said in post 5922:

24. The Great Multitude hold PALM BRANCHES in their hands (like Israel did when they celebrated Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey). The 24 ELDERS have “stephonos” CROWNS (given for “winning a race” and “obtaining a victory”) upon their heads.

The word for crowns in Rev 4:4 is the same Greek word as in Rev. 6:2, Rev. 12:1, Rev. 12:3, Rev. 13:1, Rev 14:14 and Rev. 19:12. Scripture doesn’t say why they were given their crowns. The Elders are not members or representatives of the church.

25. The Great Multitude CRY WITH A LOUD VOICE. The 24 ELDERS of the Church SING A NEW SONG.

Rev. 5:8-9 the 4 beasts sang the same song.

26. The Great Multitude come OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION (the LAST half of Daniel’s 70th week). The 24 ELDERS come out of the AGE OF THE CHURCH.

What scripture tells you the 24 elders come out of the “AGE OF THE CHURCH”? Please post it.

27. The Great Multitude SERVE GOD day and night in His TEMPLE. The 24 ELDERS of the Church RULE and REIGN with Jesus.

KJV says Rev 5:9b“for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Question for you. Are the 4 beast redeemed by His blood and will they reign on the earth?

Look at verse 8 the 4 beasts are with the elders in the “we” and “us” of verse 9 &10.


Read the same passage in the RSV

9 and they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals,

for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God

from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God,

and they shall reign on earth.”

I believe one has to conclude the KJV version is incorrect in translation of this passage unless one can explain redeemed by His blood beasts that rule and reign.

The twenty 24 elders are not out of the church age they are usually mentioned in the company of the 4 beasts or other angels doing the same things they do. Look up all of the passages that mention the elders.

I believe the elders are created beings just as the 4 beasts and angels, part of the heavenly hosts.

 

[Fusion77]

Sorry, but you lost me on your first theory. You can't fight history! He DID build the temple, and these verses EXPLAIN what the meaning is.

If perhaps there is a second meaning, relating to the two witnesses, That would be another theory.

Keep reading commentaries on it, you'll keep getting the wrong information. Shesbazzar wasn't Zerubbabel, that's just people trying to explain what appeared to be a contradiction in scripture. Ezra was a SCRIBE raised up by God to pen much of the Old Testament. I'm now explaining why it's not a contradiction. It's because NOTHING in Zechariah 4 including Zechariah 4:9 has ANYTHING to do with that Zerubbabel or the second temple era.

 

[Fusion77]

That theory takes the verses 2-3 OUT OF CONTEXT.

4 So I asked the angel who was speaking with me, “What are these, my lord?” 5 Then the angel who was speaking with me answered me, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 6 Then he said to me, “This [continuous supply of oil] is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel [prince of Judah], saying, ‘Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit [of whom the oil is a symbol],’ says the Lord of hosts. 7 ‘What are you, O great mountain [of obstacles]? Before Zerubbabel [who will rebuild the temple] you will become a plain (insignificant)! And he will bring out the capstone [of the new temple] with loud shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”’”

Sorry, my friend, but this is already HISTORY: history books TELL US that He DID build that temple. You can't UNDO history with a theory.

Correction, this is prophecy, not history. The Holy Spirit is not involved in building a Physical temple His work is Spiritual. This Zerubbabel will be a spiritual builder empowered by the Holy Spirit. Doing spiritual work. Epeshians 2:20 1 Peter 2:4-5.

If the nation of Israel needed protection it would be by the Hand of the Lord as before. Deuteronomy 26:8 Jeremiah 32:21

 

[Bro.T]

You are not understanding what I'm saying. The taken refer to the wicked, not the righteous. We've been so indoctrinated by Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching that most everyone associates the taken with the righteous being raptured. However, this is not the context of these verses. Yes, the vultures eat the carcasses of the wicked at the return of Christ. The gathering of the believers is not emphasized in this portion of Scripture--the focus is on the wicked. I've pasted both passages here:

Luke 17:26-37
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Matthew 24:36-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

Look:
In Luke, it says the flood destroyed them all. In Matthew, it says the flood took them all away. Taken = destroyed. When the disciples asked where the taken went, Jesus said, "Where the carcass is, there the vultures will gather." The taken are the wicked who are killed at the return of Christ and whose bodies are eaten by vultures.

This Noah example has nothing to do with the righteous, but Jesus told it as a warning. He calls the Church to be faithful throughout the "long" wait for His return (a theme in each of the three successive parables in Matthew 24-25).

The gathering of the righteous in the sky is in Matthew 24, after the Tribulation. It is mentioned just after the appearing of Jesus in the sky (the second coming).

That would mean that the saints and the all the angels would be coming with the Lord at that time. I think you right, those two events are similar, but at different times. Glad you pointed that out, because we know that both events got to happen. The word taken had me in the mind frame of the first resurrection, not the mind set of the Rapture, lets not ever get me confuse with all that bad doctrine, Lol. But because the first resurrection its more like a super natural event (meeting the Lord in the air). This event I believe is more of a physical taken; like the flood took the people away in Noah Days.

My thoughts would be that maybe these are some slick wicket people, hanging around some good people. Just a thought, but I understand what you saying, and the way you line up the verses made it easier for to see what you saying. peace in Jesus name

 

[iamlamad]

Correction, this is prophecy, not history. The Holy Spirit is not involved in building a Physical temple His work is Spiritual. This Zerubbabel will be a spiritual builder empowered by the Holy Spirit. Doing spiritual work. Epeshians 2:20 1 Peter 2:4-5.

If the nation of Israel needed protection it would be by the Hand of the Lord as before. Deuteronomy 26:8 Jeremiah 32:21

It is interesting, one commentary agrees with you. However, we must consider what the readers in that day would have understood: they would have understood the two to be Zerubbabel and Joshua. Therefore this may well be a double prophecy will a "now" meaning and a future meaning." I think many of the scriptures concerning the Day of the Lord were for then and for the future, as in a double meaning.

Coffman commentaries:
"The two olive trees must be understood in the additional light afforded by John's vision in Rev. 11:3,4:

"And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing before the Lord of the earth."
The same terminology being used in both passages makes it mandatory to find the articulation between them, for it can hardly be questioned that the olive trees in Revelation are the same as those in Zechariah."

John Gill
This [is] the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel;
this signifies what was said by the Lord to Zerubbabel, by some one of the prophets sent unto him: saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the
Lord of hosts:
that is, that as the candlestick was supplied with oil, from the two olive trees by the side of it, without the help of any man, to pour in the oil, and trim the lamps; so the temple should be built by Zerubbabel, not through the multitude and strength of men, but through the Spirit of God, animating, exciting, encouraging, and strengthening them to go through the work.

Some interpreters understand by them Enoch and Elias

David Guzik commentaries
b. These are the two anointed ones: In Zechariah's day, the two anointed ones were Zerubbabel and Joshua. It seems that they were not the entire trees, but two olive branches from the trees, probably one branch from each tree. The trees themselves may represent the kingly and priestly offices in Israel.

ii. God promises to raise up two more witnesses, anointed ones to preach the gospel to the world immediately before Jesus' return (Revelation 11:3-13). Revelation 11:4 specifically says of these witnesses: These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

Commentary Critical
14. anointed ones--literally, "sons of oil" (Isa 5:1, Margin). Joshua the high priest, and Zerubbabel the civil ruler, must first be anointed with grace themselves, so as to be the instruments of furnishing it to others (compare 1Jo 2:20, 27).

This vision in total was for Zerubbabel, to encourage him in the world of building the 2nd temple. I disagree completely with you that the Holy Spirit does not get involved in such projects. He comes along side to assist in ANYTHING done in the will of God. This chapter makes it clear this temple was certainly the will of God to be rebuilt. I am beginning to think that you are right about the two olive trees. I think you nailed that. I don't understand why God included them in this vision of the building of the 2nd temple.

"This Zerubbabel" was a real man with this name that built the second temple. This is history, found in many places. YOu cannot deny the truth of this. That would be like saying the Holocaust never happened.

Finally I agree with one commentary that suggested the two would be Enoch and Elijah.

 

[iamlamad]

Keep reading commentaries on it, you'll keep getting the wrong information. Shesbazzar wasn't Zerubbabel, that's just people trying to explain what appeared to be a contradiction in scripture. Ezra was a SCRIBE raised up by God to pen much of the Old Testament. I'm now explaining why it's not a contradiction. It's because NOTHING in Zechariah 4 including Zechariah 4:9 has ANYTHING to do with that Zerubbabel or the second temple era.

This is a HUGE stretch: to say it had NOTHING to do with what was happening at that time in the life of Zechariah.

8 Also the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundations of this house, and his hands will finish it.

The question is, DID Zerubbabel build the temple? I was not there, but history books tell us he did. From Wikipedia:
"Under the reign of Darius, Zechariah also emerged, centering on the rebuilding of the Temple."

Therefore I have to believe verse 9 means exactly what it says. Since you say differently, please explain it.

 

[Fusion77]

It is interesting, one commentary agrees with you. However, we must consider what the readers in that day would have understood: they would have understood the two to be Zerubbabel and Joshua. Therefore this may well be a double prophecy will a "now" meaning and a future meaning." I think many of the scriptures concerning the Day of the Lord were for then and for the future, as in a double meaning.

Coffman commentaries:
"The two olive trees must be understood in the additional light afforded by John's vision in Rev. 11:3,4:

"And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing before the Lord of the earth."
The same terminology being used in both passages makes it mandatory to find the articulation between them, for it can hardly be questioned that the olive trees in Revelation are the same as those in Zechariah."

John Gill
This [is] the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel;
this signifies what was said by the Lord to Zerubbabel, by some one of the prophets sent unto him: saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the
Lord of hosts:
that is, that as the candlestick was supplied with oil, from the two olive trees by the side of it, without the help of any man, to pour in the oil, and trim the lamps; so the temple should be built by Zerubbabel, not through the multitude and strength of men, but through the Spirit of God, animating, exciting, encouraging, and strengthening them to go through the work.

Some interpreters understand by them Enoch and Elias

David Guzik commentaries
b. These are the two anointed ones: In Zechariah's day, the two anointed ones were Zerubbabel and Joshua. It seems that they were not the entire trees, but two olive branches from the trees, probably one branch from each tree. The trees themselves may represent the kingly and priestly offices in Israel.

ii. God promises to raise up two more witnesses, anointed ones to preach the gospel to the world immediately before Jesus' return (Revelation 11:3-13). Revelation 11:4 specifically says of these witnesses: These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

Commentary Critical
14. anointed ones--literally, "sons of oil" (Isa 5:1, Margin). Joshua the high priest, and Zerubbabel the civil ruler, must first be anointed with grace themselves, so as to be the instruments of furnishing it to others (compare 1Jo 2:20, 27).

This vision in total was for Zerubbabel, to encourage him in the world of building the 2nd temple. I disagree completely with you that the Holy Spirit does not get involved in such projects. He comes along side to assist in ANYTHING done in the will of God. This chapter makes it clear this temple was certainly the will of God to be rebuilt. I am beginning to think that you are right about the two olive trees. I think you nailed that. I don't understand why God included them in this vision of the building of the 2nd temple.

"This Zerubbabel" was a real man with this name that built the second temple. This is history, found in many places. YOu cannot deny the truth of this. That would be like saying the Holocaust never happened.

Finally I agree with one commentary that suggested the two would be Enoch and Elijah.

I need you look at Zechariah 3:8 REAL no RRREEEAAAALL close. Joshua and his friends who sit before him are a SIGN, TYPE, SYMBOLIC REPRESENTATION, OF Things come. Stop listening to commentaries. Nobody can tell you what I'm saying. Joshua is a type of the Branch. Zerubbabel is a type of the witness. Thy fellows who sit before thee. Then 3 verses after Joshua 3:8, the same encounter, with the same angel, the same prophet is roused and sees a vision, of objects. These objects have NOTHING to do with the second temple era. And, EVERYTHING to do with the 2 witnesses. Those objects are Gods message to the witness. Zerubbabel is a type of him. Not because I said so, but because the Lord told the angel and the angel told this to Zechariah 3:8.

 

[Fusion77]

This is a HUGE stretch: to say it had NOTHING to do with what was happening at that time in the life of Zechariah.

8 Also the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundations of this house, and his hands will finish it.

The question is, DID Zerubbabel build the temple? I was not there, but history books tell us he did. From Wikipedia:
"Under the reign of Darius, Zechariah also emerged, centering on the rebuilding of the Temple."

Therefore I have to believe verse 9 means exactly what it says. Since you say differently, please explain it.

Di you listen to thebible or history books? Ezra 3:10 Ezra 5:16 Zerubbabel did NOT lay the foundation of the second temple. He did NOT even supervise Ezra 3:9 everyone is there except Zerubbabel. Wala he is gone. All he did was appoint Levites 20 years and older with EVERY other exile and then whoosh, he's gone. So people in this day will know Zechariah 4 is speaking of some thing else. A spiritual house. Zechariah 4:9 the word for foundation is a noun 1 other occurrence Psalms 87:1 can't get an action out of a noun.

Yes he built the temple structure. As will the witness play a major role in building the end time spiritual temple...living stones.

 

[BABerean2]

It is interesting, one commentary agrees with you. However, we must consider what the readers in that day would have understood: they would have understood the two to be Zerubbabel and Joshua. Therefore this may well be a double prophecy will a "now" meaning and a future meaning." I think many of the scriptures concerning the Day of the Lord were for then and for the future, as in a double meaning.

Coffman commentaries:
"The two olive trees must be understood in the additional light afforded by John's vision in Rev. 11:3,4:

"And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing before the Lord of the earth."
The same terminology being used in both passages makes it mandatory to find the articulation between them, for it can hardly be questioned that the olive trees in Revelation are the same as those in Zechariah."

John Gill
This [is] the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel;
this signifies what was said by the Lord to Zerubbabel, by some one of the prophets sent unto him: saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the
Lord of hosts:
that is, that as the candlestick was supplied with oil, from the two olive trees by the side of it, without the help of any man, to pour in the oil, and trim the lamps; so the temple should be built by Zerubbabel, not through the multitude and strength of men, but through the Spirit of God, animating, exciting, encouraging, and strengthening them to go through the work.

Some interpreters understand by them Enoch and Elias

David Guzik commentaries
b. These are the two anointed ones: In Zechariah's day, the two anointed ones were Zerubbabel and Joshua. It seems that they were not the entire trees, but two olive branches from the trees, probably one branch from each tree. The trees themselves may represent the kingly and priestly offices in Israel.

ii. God promises to raise up two more witnesses, anointed ones to preach the gospel to the world immediately before Jesus' return (Revelation 11:3-13). Revelation 11:4 specifically says of these witnesses: These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

Commentary Critical
14. anointed ones--literally, "sons of oil" (Isa 5:1, Margin). Joshua the high priest, and Zerubbabel the civil ruler, must first be anointed with grace themselves, so as to be the instruments of furnishing it to others (compare 1Jo 2:20, 27).

This vision in total was for Zerubbabel, to encourage him in the world of building the 2nd temple. I disagree completely with you that the Holy Spirit does not get involved in such projects. He comes along side to assist in ANYTHING done in the will of God. This chapter makes it clear this temple was certainly the will of God to be rebuilt. I am beginning to think that you are right about the two olive trees. I think you nailed that. I don't understand why God included them in this vision of the building of the 2nd temple.

"This Zerubbabel" was a real man with this name that built the second temple. This is history, found in many places. YOu cannot deny the truth of this. That would be like saying the Holocaust never happened.

Finally I agree with one commentary that suggested the two would be Enoch and Elijah.

How long will we continue the confusion by using the types and shadows of the Old Testament to interpret the symbols of the New Testament?


Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Instead, we ignore what is plainly written in the text and spend time on our own conjecture.

.

 

[Riberra]

Riberra, lets look at it in a different way.

You said the rapture is post tribulation. You said 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the rapture. You said the trump of God is the last trump. You said the last trump happens at Matthew 24:29-31. Okay lets look at what the bible say.

A) In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, there's an archangel. (One archangel, no other angels).

B) In Matthew 24:31, He sends His angels. (Many angels, no archangel).

You have forget to include the sentence Unto the Coming of the Lord 1 Thessalonians 4:15 which relate the Trump of God directly with the Coming of Jesus in Glory AFTER the tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31

A) In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, there's "the" trumpet of God.
B) In matthew 24:31, there's "a" trumpet.

Riberra, where's the trumpet of God in Matthew 24:31? Please show us.

The trump of God is the -great sound- of a trumpet mentioned in Matthew 24:31
-31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet-// the great sound of a trumpet is Jesus' voice sounding the resurrection and giving the order to the angels to gather them up with the elect still alive ...
Unto the Coming of the Lord that Paul talk about in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 / which is the The Coming of Jesus in Glory mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 that Jesus Himself said will happen AFTER the Tribulation. That -great sound- of a Trumpet is DIFFERENT that the 7Th trumpet of Revelation sounding during the Tribulation.

 

[Fusion77]

This is a HUGE stretch: to say it had NOTHING to do with what was happening at that time in the life of Zechariah.

8 Also the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundations of this house, and his hands will finish it.

The question is, DID Zerubbabel build the temple? I was not there, but history books tell us he did. From Wikipedia:
"Under the reign of Darius, Zechariah also emerged, centering on the rebuilding of the Temple."

Therefore I have to believe verse 9 means exactly what it says. Since you say differently, please explain it.

Nothing to do with the physical building of the foundation.

 

[Fusion77]

How long will we continue the confusion by using the types and shadows of the Old Testament to interpret the symbols of the New Testament?


Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Instead, we ignore what is plainly written in the text and spend time on our own conjecture.

.

So that means the twelve stars in Revelation 12:1 are 12 angels right? No. They're the 12 tribes of Israel.

The 2 lampstands are the 2 witnesses because it says. The 7 lampstands are the 7 churches because it says.

 

[Fusion77]

How long will we continue the confusion by using the types and shadows of the Old Testament to interpret the symbols of the New Testament?


Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Instead, we ignore what is plainly written in the text and spend time on our own conjecture.

.

You font understand Romans chapter 11 it's a picture of individual adoption into the family of God. A gentile believes is broken off and grafted into the family of Abraham. Galatians 3:27 and Colossians 3:11. There's no Jew or gentile church. Individual salvation. I can't ride in on my moms faith.
Where do you gentile church anyways. Romans 11:13 says I speak to you Gentiles. Same word as Revelation 11:2. Is this the church too trampling the holy city?

Do think the church can lay dead in the streets? These are 2 prophets. People.

 

[Fusion77]

How long will we continue the confusion by using the types and shadows of the Old Testament to interpret the symbols of the New Testament?


Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Instead, we ignore what is plainly written in the text and spend time on our own conjecture.

.

Grafted into the family tree of Abraham Galatians 3:27-29

 

[FelixDane]

The two trees standing before God, the witnesses, are Jewism, and Christianity. They will be personified in the tribulation, by 2 Holy men in Jerusalem.

The "rapture", will happen as Jesus Christs descends to earth again, and the faithful will be lifted up to meet him in the air. They will then join in his victorious entrance into the heavenly Jerusalem, where they will live with him in bliss for 1000 years. This Heavenly Jerusalem, will come down with Jesus Christ and is the size of a small continent. It will land in the Middle East, squashing the enemies of Israel and their cities.

This happens at the end of the Revelation, at the sound of the last trumpet.

After 1000 years, Satan and the world shall attack God again, and as is stated rather inconspicuously, then it is all over. This is the last day of reality, and from here comes the day of judgement, the last day. All who live or have lived, who weren't part of the first Rapture, shall stand before God and be judged, based solely of how they treated those who had Christ within them. That is to say, those who were part of the first Rapture at the Second coming.

Those who find Gods Mercy on this day, will be given eternal life for free, and given to enter The Heavenly Jerusalem, where the Holy have lived for 1000 years already.

That's how I read and interpret.

Peace in the Lord.