Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Postvieww]

Regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (to us) (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13), right when the 7th trumpet sounds. It won't be until a little later that Jesus will physically return and take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). It is like if someone said: "It is time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately. The only part of Revelation 11:18 which will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come". For the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be physically resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the 1st vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California, 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will physically resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.



Note that just as the fall of current mankind occurred some 6,000 years ago with the fall of Adam (Romans 5:19), yet unsaved, current mankind won't be destroyed until sometime after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Matthew 10:28), so the fall of Revelation's figurative "Babylon" (Revelation 14:8) occurred some 6,000 years ago. For Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of Adamic mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). But Revelation's "Babylon" won't be destroyed until the 7th vial of God's wrath (Revelation 16:19,17), the final event of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the resurrection and marriage of the church (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).



Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

That is, Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians in our future being patient and faithful to the point of death in not worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do those things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do those things, if they are then killed by the Antichrist, their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Revelation 14:19-20 can refer to the Antichrist's killing of non-Christians who won't worship him (such as radical Muslims, ultra-Orthodox Jews, hardcore atheists, etc.) being God's wrath against those non-Christians. Revelation 14:20 could refer to when they get beheaded by the Antichrist (say, with one blow of a sword, while they are kneeling), their blood will shoot up from their necks like a geyser as high as a horse's bridle. Also, in Revelation 14:20, the city could be Jerusalem, and the 1,600 furlongs is about 200 miles, so that Revelation 14:19-20 could mean that the Antichrist's beheading of people who won't worship him will begin at Jerusalem and the surrounding region, when he sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

But when the Antichrist beheads Christians for not worshipping him (Revelation 20:4), this won't be God's wrath against those Christians, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17).

Bible2 said:

Regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus.

Neither does 1 Corin 15:51-52

Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (to us) (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13), right when the 7th trumpet sounds.

Nothing in the text suggest a future point in time (to us ). “are become” vs 15 “wrath is come” vs 18 suggest just the opposite.

It won't be until a little later that Jesus will physically return and take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

My dear brother He does come at the 7th (last ) trumpet. You have repeatedly failed to prove your case to me. Just one question. Are you a real person or a computer program? Just curious.

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). It is like if someone said: "It is time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately. The only part of Revelation 11:18 which will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come".

How can you be dogmatic about “thy wrath is come” and not “the kingdoms of this world ARE BECOME?’


For the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

That is one theory. I believe the wrath of Rev 6:17 is the same wrath of Rev 11:18, Rev 15:1. Seals, trumpets and vial overlap they do not run consecutively. I have numerous time offered evidence for that.

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52.

Why? Just because it goes against your timeline in Revelation does not prove your statement to be true.

The latter won't sound until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31;

Rev chapter 6 is an overview of most of the book.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be physically resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

I believe all of that happens at the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet.

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the 1st vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California, 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

You had 4 coulds, 1 possibly and 1 possible in that statement sounds like you’re not even sure.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will physically resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Not convinced you’ve got your “ time” line down.

Everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time".

Na.


For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.


Note that just as the fall of current mankind occurred some 6,000 years ago with the fall of Adam (Romans 5:19), yet unsaved, current mankind won't be destroyed until sometime after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Matthew 10:28), so the fall of Revelation's figurative "Babylon" (Revelation 14:8) occurred some 6,000 years ago.

Babylon of Rev 14:8, 18:2 is a literal city, could, possibly, maybe, might, be Mecca.


For Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of Adamic mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). But Revelation's "Babylon" won't be destroyed until the 7th vial of God's wrath (Revelation 16:19,17), the final event of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the resurrection and marriage of the church (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).


Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).


That is, Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians in our future being patient and faithful to the point of death in not worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do those things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do those things, if they are then killed by the Antichrist, their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).


Revelation 14:19-20 can refer to the Antichrist's killing of non-Christians who won't worship him (such as radical Muslims, ultra-Orthodox Jews, hardcore atheists, etc.) being God's wrath against those non-Christians.

So the angels reap the non Christians and throw them to the AC to slaughter, which is the wrath of God?????? I don’t think so. Don’t you say at the bottom of this post when AC beheads Christians that is the wrath of satan????

Revelation 14:20 could refer to when they get beheaded by the Antichrist (say, with one blow of a sword, while they are kneeling), their blood will shoot up from their necks like a geyser as high as a horse's bridle.

Maybe in a movie.

Also, in Revelation 14:20, the city could be Jerusalem, and the 1,600 furlongs is about 200 miles, so that Revelation 14:19-20 could mean that the Antichrist's beheading of people who won't worship him will begin at Jerusalem and the surrounding region, when he sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

It could mean a lot of things, let’s just let say what it says. I’ll just stick with, it is same as Rev 19:15.

I know that messes with your timeline, but I believe your timeline is wrong.


But when the Antichrist beheads Christians for not worshipping him (Revelation 20:4), this won't be God's wrath against those Christians, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17).

Agreed. Above sentence only that is.

My brother you work as hard as some pretribbers to make some of your theories work out.

 

[iamlamad]

The supply of oil is the anointing power of the Holy Spirit in the witness. Zechariah 4:9 says his hands laid the foundation of "this house". The Holy Spirit Zerubbabel did NOT lay the foundation of the second temple. Ezra 3:10 Ezra 5:16 He DID NOT even supervise the work Ezra 3:9. Who is present in supervising? Everyone EXCEPT Zerubbabel. All he did was appoint Levites 20 years and older, along with EVERY OTHER returned captive. Then he's gone whoosh, not involved in the laying of the foundation.


Look at the original word for foundation in Zechariah 4:9. It's a NOUN, no action. It has one other occurrence psalm 87:1. You think this talking about a physical foundation? You're reading a commentary which is incorrect. I'm bringing information for the Lord Himself.

Here is what Strong's says:
Strong's Number H3245 matches the Hebrew יָסַד (yacad),
which occurs 47 times in 41 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV

Are you confusing the Hebrew word translated "foundation" with another word, perhaps?

Please, tell us EXACTLY what the Lord said to you.

 

[Fusion77]

Here is what Strong's says:
Strong's Number H3245 matches the Hebrew יָסַד (yacad),
which occurs 47 times in 41 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV

Are you confusing the Hebrew word translated "foundation" with another word, perhaps?

Please, tell us EXACTLY what the Lord said to you.

It's Yesudah H3248 1

 

[Fusion77]

Here is what Strong's says:
Strong's Number H3245 matches the Hebrew יָסַד (yacad),
which occurs 47 times in 41 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV

Are you confusing the Hebrew word translated "foundation" with another word, perhaps?

Please, tell us EXACTLY what the Lord said to you.

It's yacad prim root verb H3245 yesud H3246 masculine noun but Zechariah 4:9 and psalms 87:1 are from Yesudah H3248 feminine noun.

 

[Fusion77]

Here is what Strong's says:
Strong's Number H3245 matches the Hebrew יָסַד (yacad),
which occurs 47 times in 41 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV

Are you confusing the Hebrew word translated "foundation" with another word, perhaps?

Please, tell us EXACTLY what the Lord said to you.

You ever use bible hub? That gives ancient Hebrew to original to English. It uses strongs. Just go to bible hub. It'll show it.

 

[Riberra]

Bible2 said:

Regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus.

Neither does 1 Corin 15:51-52

Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (to us) (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13), right when the 7th trumpet sounds.

Nothing in the text suggest a future point in time (to us ). “are become” vs 15 “wrath is come” vs 18 suggest just the opposite.

It won't be until a little later that Jesus will physically return and take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Possibly that Bible2 refers to something similar that was said by Jesus in Matthew 28:18 which did not mean that Jesus at this time 2,000 years ago have taken the Earth from the power and influence of the prince of the power of the air (Satan) Ephesians 2:2

You will notice that just before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet it is written in Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
....Jesus is certainly not the third woe....But it is Satan who will be cast out from Heaven down to Earth

Jesus will reign physically on the Earth when Satan will be lock into the Bottomless Pit.

Matthew 28

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[keras]

keras said: ↑
The very pretentious and most unbelievable idea of them sitting on the clouds and looking down from heaven that the rapture proponents have, is fiction of the worst kind. Satan is delighted that people believe such rubbish.
There is no removal to heaven of any people group to heaven anywhere in the Bible.
There is no war, just God's wrath upon the nations.
Jewish boys, or anyone's dreams and delusions should be taken with a grain of salt.

That's your theory: it is simply wrong. You may not believe in dreams and visions. They are SCRIPTURAL.

Yes, God does give dreams and visions to individuals. I can attest to that myself. However they are not the same as the ones the ancient prophets received, which were to reveal God's plans for the ages.
We cannot think someone's dreams have any relevance to the global situation at present. Personal situations, yes, but not future prophecy, all the details of what will happen are in our Bibles already. And to understand them takes serious study, but most of all: get out of your mind any teachings that don't conform to the Prophetic Word.
A pre-trib rapture to heaven is the worst one of them and as Isaiah 29:9-12 says:....the Lord will pour upon you a spirit of deep sleep..... So belief in false teachings results in inability to comprehend the truth. 1 Corinthians 3:18-20

The "rapture", will happen as Jesus Christs descends to earth again, and the faithful will be lifted up to meet him in the air. They will then join in his victorious entrance into the heavenly Jerusalem, where they will live with him in bliss for 1000 years. This Heavenly Jerusalem, will come down with Jesus Christ and is the size of a small continent. It will land in the Middle East, squashing the enemies of Israel and their cities.

Hi Felix, perhaps you need to do some more study of what the Bible actually tells us.
Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6 are clear: the saints will reign with Jesus on earth for the 1000 years.

 

[BABerean2]

So that means the twelve stars in Revelation 12:1 are 12 angels right? No. They're the 12 tribes of Israel.

The 2 lampstands are the 2 witnesses because it says. The 7 lampstands are the 7 churches because it says.

Well, you could call me either a sheep or a goat based on Matthew chapter 25.
However, I am really neither.

Context is always the key.

Since the Book of Revelation came directly from Christ, who is the head of the Church, and was recorded by the Apostle John, using the New Testament to interpret the book should be obvious.

Some will insist that Moses is one of two witnesses. However, we know Moses died and was buried.

Sadly, many of our Brothers and Sisters in the Middle East do lay dead in the streets, at the present time.

I agree 100% that there is no Gentile Church. It has been made up of Jewish and Gentile Christians, since the first century.

In Galatians chapter 3 Paul makes it clear that the Promises to Abraham were made only to Christ.
We inherit the promises through Christ, who is the One Seed of Galatians 3:16.
.

 

[Fusion77]

Here is what Strong's says:
Strong's Number H3245 matches the Hebrew יָסַד (yacad),
which occurs 47 times in 41 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV

Are you confusing the Hebrew word translated "foundation" with another word, perhaps?

Please, tell us EXACTLY what the Lord said to you.

It's cool friend. I can't tell you everything. All I can say is these were 2 demonic attacks in his life. Something only the eyes of the Lord see.

Haggai 2:20-23 is a Message to Zerubbabel. Any body should know that's not a message to the Zerubbabel of that era. It's a future event. We know God has NOT yet shaken both the heavens and the earth. Hebrews 12:26-27, this is yet a future event. It has NOT yet happened and Zerubbabel is long gone. Your commentaries will tell you he is a type of Christ, but he's not. Chist will be King in the Millenial reign Zerubbabel, this witness will be governor. Joshua the high priest was a type of Christ, not because I say so, because the bible says so. Zechariah 6:11 -15 see the crowning of Joshua that represents the coming together of both offices of Christ. He's the Symbolic of the Branch Isaiah 11:1-2.

 

[Fusion77]

Well, you could call me either a sheep or a goat based on Matthew chapter 25.
However, I am really neither.

Context is always the key.

Since the Book of Revelation came directly from Christ, who is the head of the Church, and was recorded by the Apostle John, using the New Testament to interpret the book should be obvious.

Some will insist that Moses is one of two witnesses. However, we know Moses died and was buried.

Sadly, many of our Brothers and Sisters in the Middle East do lay dead in the streets, at the present time.

I agree 100% that there is no Gentile Church. It has been made up of Jewish and Gentile Christians, since the first century.

In Galatians chapter 3 Paul makes it clear that the Promises to Abraham were made only to Christ.
We inherit the promises through Christ, who is the One Seed.
.

2 lampstands and 2 olive trees. Where's the olive trees in revelation 1. Not there! These are 2 prophets it says so. Look up prophet in the original.

 

[Fusion77]

Well, you could call me either a sheep or a goat based on Matthew chapter 25.
However, I am really neither.

Context is always the key.

Since the Book of Revelation came directly from Christ, who is the head of the Church, and was recorded by the Apostle John, using the New Testament to interpret the book should be obvious.

Some will insist that Moses is one of two witnesses. However, we know Moses died and was buried.

Sadly, many of our Brothers and Sisters in the Middle East do lay dead in the streets, at the present time.

I agree 100% that there is no Gentile Church. It has been made up of Jewish and Gentile Christians, since the first century.

In Galatians chapter 3 Paul makes it clear that the Promises to Abraham were made only to Christ.
We inherit the promises through Christ, who is the One Seed of Galatians 3:16.
.

An olive branch or a branch in general represents an individual. The olive tree tells us they'll be Gentiles. A prophet is not without honor but in his own country. He will send 2 Gentile believers to witness.

The cultivated olive tree isn't cultivated until the wild olive branch is grafted in. (That's how I see it). The Greek Kallion means improved or domesticated olive tree. Improved after the the unbelieving Jews are broken off and the believing (individual) is grafted in. The Jews can always be grafted back in though.
This grafting or adoption in the the family of faith happens through our faith in Christ. Remember Abraham believed and it was accredited to him as righteousness. It's the same with us its our faith that's brings into the family tree of God through Abraham. It's individual decision made by an individual "branch". Olive branch = individual believer.

 

[Fusion77]

Here is what Strong's says:
Strong's Number H3245 matches the Hebrew יָסַד (yacad),
which occurs 47 times in 41 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV

Are you confusing the Hebrew word translated "foundation" with another word, perhaps?

Please, tell us EXACTLY what the Lord said to you.

Type Yesudah 2 into a search engine you'll find it

 

[Luke17:37]

That would mean that the saints and the all the angels would be coming with the Lord at that time. I think you right, those two events are similar, but at different times. Glad you pointed that out, because we know that both events got to happen. The word taken had me in the mind frame of the first resurrection, not the mind set of the Rapture, lets not ever get me confuse with all that bad doctrine, Lol. But because the first resurrection its more like a super natural event (meeting the Lord in the air). This event I believe is more of a physical taken; like the flood took the people away in Noah Days.

My thoughts would be that maybe these are some slick wicket people, hanging around some good people. Just a thought, but I understand what you saying, and the way you line up the verses made it easier for to see what you saying. peace in Jesus name

Hi Tanzel,

I'm glad my post was helpful to you.

Resurrection-Gathering may be a better term to describe the Post-Tribulation event to avoid confusion.

Yes, these passages in Matthew 24 and Luke 17 about the taken or the destroyed are showing what happens to the wicked at the return of Christ--not the Christians.

 

[iamlamad]

Type Yesudah 2 into a search engine you'll find it

:-( But that is not the Hebrew word used in Zec. 4:9.

Hmmm. A interlinear shows 3248, and NOT 3245. Why would Strong's show a different form of this word than what is really there?

 

[iamlamad]

It's cool friend. I can't tell you everything. All I can say is these were 2 demonic attacks in his life. Something only the eyes of the Lord see.

Haggai 2:20-23 is a Message to Zerubbabel. Any body should know that's not a message to the Zerubbabel of that era. It's a future event. We know God has NOT yet shaken both the heavens and the earth. Hebrews 12:26-27, this is yet a future event. It has NOT yet happened and Zerubbabel is long gone. Your commentaries will tell you he is a type of Christ, but he's not. Chist will be King in the Millenial reign Zerubbabel, this witness will be governor. Joshua the high priest was a type of Christ, not because I say so, because the bible says so. Zechariah 6:11 -15 see the crowning of Joshua that represents the coming together of both offices of Christ. He's the Symbolic of the Branch Isaiah 11:1-2.

I have to agree with you here.

 

[iamlamad]

keras said: ↑
The very pretentious and most unbelievable idea of them sitting on the clouds and looking down from heaven that the rapture proponents have, is fiction of the worst kind. Satan is delighted that people believe such rubbish.
There is no removal to heaven of any people group to heaven anywhere in the Bible.
There is no war, just God's wrath upon the nations.
Jewish boys, or anyone's dreams and delusions should be taken with a grain of salt.

Yes, God does give dreams and visions to individuals. I can attest to that myself. However they are not the same as the ones the ancient prophets received, which were to reveal God's plans for the ages.
We cannot think someone's dreams have any relevance to the global situation at present. Personal situations, yes, but not future prophecy, all the details of what will happen are in our Bibles already. And to understand them takes serious study, but most of all: get out of your mind any teachings that don't conform to the Prophetic Word.
A pre-trib rapture to heaven is the worst one of them and as Isaiah 29:9-12 says:....the Lord will pour upon you a spirit of deep sleep..... So belief in false teachings results in inability to comprehend the truth. 1 Corinthians 3:18-20

Hi Felix, perhaps you need to do some more study of what the Bible actually tells us.
Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6 are clear: the saints will reign with Jesus on earth for the 1000 years.

We cannot think someone's dreams have any relevance to the global situation at present.
Strange, but John, a fellow believer (and a disciple of our Lord) saw much of the future in visions. If God chooses to show the future in a vision of today, He certainly is able. I believe He does this frequently.

A pretrib rapture is in the bible. I am just sorry you can't see it. Millions do, though.

 

[iamlamad]

You ever use bible hub? That gives ancient Hebrew to original to English. It uses strongs. Just go to bible hub. It'll show it.

Yes, I see that it disagrees with the Blue Letter bible on this word. I think the Bible Hub is the correct one here.

 

[iamlamad]

It's yacad prim root verb H3245 yesud H3246 masculine noun but Zechariah 4:9 and psalms 87:1 are from Yesudah H3248 feminine noun.

Now I agree.

 

[iamlamad]

The two trees standing before God, the witnesses, are Jewism, and Christianity. They will be personified in the tribulation, by 2 Holy men in Jerusalem.

The "rapture", will happen as Jesus Christs descends to earth again, and the faithful will be lifted up to meet him in the air. They will then join in his victorious entrance into the heavenly Jerusalem, where they will live with him in bliss for 1000 years. This Heavenly Jerusalem, will come down with Jesus Christ and is the size of a small continent. It will land in the Middle East, squashing the enemies of Israel and their cities.

This happens at the end of the Revelation, at the sound of the last trumpet.

After 1000 years, Satan and the world shall attack God again, and as is stated rather inconspicuously, then it is all over. This is the last day of reality, and from here comes the day of judgement, the last day. All who live or have lived, who weren't part of the first Rapture, shall stand before God and be judged, based solely of how they treated those who had Christ within them. That is to say, those who were part of the first Rapture at the Second coming.

Those who find Gods Mercy on this day, will be given eternal life for free, and given to enter The Heavenly Jerusalem, where the Holy have lived for 1000 years already.

That's how I read and interpret.

Peace in the Lord.

All we need: yet ANOTHER interpretation.

 

[iamlamad]

You font understand Romans chapter 11 it's a picture of individual adoption into the family of God. A gentile believes is broken off and grafted into the family of Abraham. Galatians 3:27 and Colossians 3:11. There's no Jew or gentile church. Individual salvation. I can't ride in on my moms faith.
Where do you gentile church anyways. Romans 11:13 says I speak to you Gentiles. Same word as Revelation 11:2. Is this the church too trampling the holy city?

Do think the church can lay dead in the streets? These are 2 prophets. People.

TRue, two people: I think Enoch and Elijah.

But I think the church of today is a different church than the Jewish churches. They disappeared after AD 70. Today the church is mostly made up of Gentile believers. And God did say "until the fullness of the Gentiles" comes in.