Can we reach a compromise regarding abortion?

[Vicomte13]

Any person who has to say, "This is right, and if you disagree, I'll bash you up," is a monster.

Any person who says "I have the right to murder a baby" is a monster.

 

[KitKatMatt]

Any person who says "I have the right to murder a baby" is a monster.

Anyone who says "I have the right to force my decisions on something growing in someone else's body" is a monster.

 

[farout]

Wouldn't it be good for everyone is reversible sterilization was common from age 10 for everyone?

Either way I'm in favour of abortion for almost any reason at any time.

A fetus isn't any closer to being a person than an adult cow. There's no significant moral attribute.

Glad your mother did not feel that way when she found she was in a family way with you, hey.

 

[Loudmouth]

For us to have the sort of social safety net and human development structure we require now, and certainly we WOULD require if we stopped murdering babies, . . .

We are talking about fetuses, not babies.

 

[Archivist]

Mods please close this thread. Discussion was civil at first, but when we have people saying that others will be thrown in the lake of fire and that they are murderers that is going too far. I don't believe that cleanup is possible.

 

[grandvizier1006]

At least they can get some helpful information to kids about sex education . . . oh wait.

Haha, yes. Conservatives have different values than you and see the world very differently. It's still hilarious from when it was first said decades ago.

If I'm not allowed to generalize and hate people, then why are you?

 

[grandvizier1006]

Mods please close this thread. Discussion was civil at first, but when we have people saying that others will be thrown in the lake of fire and that they are murderers that is going too far. I don't believe that cleanup is possible.

Not to mention the absolute mockery and condescension the non-Christians here are having towards anyone pro-life. Just because the pro-lifers act dogmatic doesn't mean they have to as well.

 

[Loudmouth]

Haha, yes. Conservatives have different values than you and see the world very differently. It's still hilarious from when it was first said decades ago.

If I'm not allowed to generalize and hate people, then why are you?

I don't hate conservatives. I just think they are wrong. Surely you can disagree with a person's opinions without hating them, can't you?

 

[grandvizier1006]

I don't hate conservatives. I just think they are wrong. Surely you can disagree with a person's opinions without hating them, can't you?

Honestly, I thought other people, at least on here, tended to hate those whose disagreed with them even if they wouldn't admit. I mean, it seems that on here everyone acts like the "other guys" are going to destroy the world with their ideas. I've seen this paranoia on both sides and I'm not used to it. It's appalling how people devolve in debates, myself included.

 

[redleghunter]

Where/when did God "reveal life begins at conception "?

I presented such to you three times.

 

[redleghunter]

Baloney.

What a rebuttal!

 

[Archivist]

Again, mods please close this thread.

 

[redleghunter]

He did mention it directly: you shall not kill. He always speaks of babies in the womb as persons - saying that he knew us when we were in the womb, telling us how John the Baptist leapt for joy in his mother's womb when brought into the presence of Jesus in his mother's womb, prescribing the death penalty for the man who, in a fight with another man, strikes a pregnant woman causing premature birth in which the baby or the mother are killed.

God set one general rule prohibiting man from killing man, and then made a narrow generic exception for the execution of those who kill other men. Jesus told his apostles to arm themselves with swords for their protection, but warned them against taking up the sword. Within the boundaries of his kingdom of ancient Israel, God imposed the death penalty for other crimes, but God obliterated ancient Israel.

The case of unborn babies is very straightforward: they come into being when begotten, God knows them, and men are prohibited from killing other men except those adjudicated guilty of capital crimes - which babies cannot be for they are wholly innocent.

It's clear as day, really.

Not to mention embryologists define conception as the moment where a distinct new human being is created:


WHEN DO HUMAN BEINGS BEGIN?

"SCIENTIFIC" MYTHS AND SCIENTIFIC FACTS

Dianne N. Irving, M.A., Ph.D.

https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html

The science is settled.

 

[redleghunter]

I crushed an acorn with a hammer. Did I destroy an oak tree?

Last I checked we are not trees.

 

[redleghunter]

Not true. The punishment for causing an unintentional miscarriage is different than causing harm to a living person. So now we're stuck interpreting how to apply that to cases where the women wants an abortion, but it seems hard to imagine that would suddenly change the fetus from property into a living person.

Not true and I refuted you on this in another thread.
There is no miscarriage or still birth in Exodus 21. The Hebrew word for such does not appear.

 

[redleghunter]

I disagree. I think most people who call themselves pro-choice agree with Roe--the current Gallop poll show that 51% of Americans think that abortion should be legal undercertain circumstances, which would be in line with the Roe decision. http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx According to the poll 29% do think that abortion should be legal under any circumstances, but that is not the majority view.

If you have any evidence to the contrary I would love to see it.

Subjective morality by poll. Wow. How post modern chic is that?

 

[redleghunter]

Scripture tells me that "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." I don't see anything saying that "killers" are thrown into the Lake of Fire at final judgment.

Revelation 22:

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[pat34lee]

And if you ever get pregnant, then you can make that decision for yourself.

But you do not have the right to use your opinions to dictate what another person can and can't do with their body.

We do it all the time, from forced medical care to forced psychiatric care,
to intervention for drug use or attempted suicide. When there is another
life involved, then it gets even stricter. No matter how you want to phrase
it, from conception forward, there is a second life inside the mother. One
that should have just as much a right to grow and live as her.

 

[pat34lee]

Teens can get pregnant who are unable to carry a baby to term
and give birth to it. Sorry I wasn't clear.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-03NHbFj2D...ltXd9elMoRU/s1600/Copy+of+Kids+2011+010_2.jpg

There are also mentally impaired (and average kids) who get pregnant
in grade school. Granted, you usually have to experience these situations
before you think differently.

Worry about the other 99.99% first. The exceptions can be dealt with
one at a time.

 

[redleghunter]

You have read a passage that has been mistranslated. What you have read, you have read correctly, but it is not what the Hebrew underlying the translation says. What it says is that if two men fight and hit a pregnant woman and the boys come out of her, that the harm is assessed.

The boys coming out of her is not a miscarriage - "miscarriage" is the mistranslation of the Hebrew - it is, rather, exactly what it says: a premature birth.

So, there's a fight, and a combatant strikes a pregnant woman and causes her to go into labor and deliver her baby - then the harm is assessed. If the woman or the baby are damaged, the combatant who struck her is harmed eye for eye, tooth for tooth, bruise for bruise. If the woman or the baby is killed, life for life.

If there is no harm - not cut, no eyes lost, the baby is born whole and alive, then the combatant who strikes the woman is still fined, by the husband whose wife was struck.

That is what the Scripture actually says. The mistranslation of the word as "miscarriage" causes this mischief.
A better word would be "delivers".

If men fight and strike a pregnant woman such that she delivers, if there is no harm, a fine, but if there is harm, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe, bruise for bruise...and life for life.

If the woman or the baby dies, the man is a killer and he is to be killed.
That is what the Scripture says, and it is completely consistent with life being measured from begetting, Jesus and John both persons in the womb, and God knowing us in the womb.

I'll add for English translations the the YLT and KJV do a good job of identifying the child in the womb as "fruit of the womb."