What Paul or ANYONE else went through back then has nothing to do with us at the end of this age. There was not "rapture" for any age but our age.
Yes, it is relevant. There is no basis for your hope in a pre-tribulation rapture.
We know there WILL BE a catching up because it is written. The choice seems to be on this thread that this catching up will be at the end of the 70th week or at the beginning. So our differences are only 7 plus years. You have to ask yourself, if only 7 years, WHY NOT BEFORE when the other choice is to beat up and Kill the bride? Do you really imagine that is His will?
Why not before? Well, because there isn't any biblical reason to hope for it. The clearest reading of Scripture never suggests it.
Yes, I do imagine that this is His will. And this is why:
Matthew 24:9 (NKJV)
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and
kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
Luke 21:12–19 (NKJV)
12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and
they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.
John 16:2–4 (NKJV)
2 They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever
kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. 4 But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.
“And these things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.
Revelation 2:10 (NKJV)
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days.
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Revelation 6:9–11 (NKJV)
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar
the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then
a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of
their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Revelation 7:9–17 (NKJV)
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb,
clothed with white robes [martyrs--see chapter 6], with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “
Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are
the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
Revelation 12:10–11 (NKJV)
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And
they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and
they did not love their lives to the death.
Revelation 12:17 (NKJV)
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to
make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 13:5–10 (NKJV)
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to
make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 13:15 (NKJV)
15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast
to be killed.
Revelation 14:9–13 (NKJV)
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘
Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”
Revelation 15:2 (NKJV)
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.
Revelation 17:6 (NKJV)
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the
martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.
Revelation 18:24 (NKJV)
24 And in her was found
the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”
Revelation 19:2 (NKJV)
2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the
blood of His servants shed by her.”
Revelation 20:4–6 (NKJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw
the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
When we put all the end time scriptures together, we know this catching up will be so that we escape God's wrath poured out.
I don't see this.
Neither can one hope to live through this time of the 70th week and escape His wrath while being left behind at the pretrib rapture. NO ONE ON EARTH will escape His wrath. I could say "no one under the sun..." When God cranks up the heat of the sun it will affect ALL on the earth. Neither can one say they will escape God's wrath but not Satan's wrath, for they are CONCURRENT.
This is all dependent on your classification of the word "wrath." If you are using a different classification than God, you are in trouble, since you aren't prepared to consider living in the Tribulation (which I don't, for the most part, see as being "God's wrath"). The bowls are classified as wrath. But the first bowl, for example, only afflicts those with the mark of the beast (no Christians).
If your view of God persists in being so narrow, you are at great risk for disowning Him.
Not at all. I just know the truth in this matter.
So, if it turns out that I am right and God does fully intend to allow His Church to be overcome (physically) for the most part during the Tribulation, you are saying that you will still follow Him? Good. Because it sounds like you can't worship a God who would allow such widespread terrible suffering.
Please don't! Read the book of Acts.
Did you miss the fact that the book of Acts was the first century church? What does that have to do with the rapture which is still future? I will answer for you: NOTHING. Perhaps you don't understand that all that happened to Christian people in the past was NOT God being angry with them. It was Satan's hatred for them. The future rapture will be so the church can escape God's wrath poured out. Perhaps you need to study 1 Thes. 5 again.
Acts is not irrelevant. God allowed the first century church to experience enormous persecution. Why should we be different? And why should we be different than the Iraqi and Syrian Christians who are being beheaded by ISIS right now? The Tribulation, for Christians, will NOT be God being angry with them. It will be Satan's hatred for them. By the time the true wrath of God comes around, personally I believe that all the Christians will be dead except for the 144,000 sealed Jewish believers.
Revelation 9:4 (NKJV)
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Do a word study on persecution in the New Testament.
This would be a non-sequitur. We are at the very end of this age and what happened before in the chuch age has nothing to do with the rapture.
You are in error. The Scriptures are timeless.
Matthew 5:10–12 (NKJV)
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matthew 10:24–26 (NKJV)
24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household! 26 Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.
2 Corinthians 4:8–11 (NKJV)
8 We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed—10 always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
2 Timothy 3:12 (NKJV)
12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
Read Revelation and see how most of the faithful are given into Satan's hand to be killed.
Again a non-sequitur. They are given into Satan's hands because they were left behind when God pulled those that believe in Him out from His wrath. In other words, they set their OWN appointment with wrath.
All your other reasons (in the next paragraph) are only human reasoning that does not fit this discussion. The rapture comes a moment before the judgment where God will judge the entire world. The church - the body of Christ on earth will have no business being judged for we have judged ourselves. This judgment will be God's wrath poured out. If you wish to set your OWN appointment for His wrath, you can, and He will allow it. but don't try to set an appointment for others!
This is your opinion; it is not a Scriptural fact.
The Lord will be our judge and it will be applied personally, not through a blanket "judgment."
1 Corinthians 4:4–5 (NKJV)
4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.
2 Corinthians 5:10 (NKJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Persecution and wrath are not the same thing. Persecution is promised to all believers.
And the church has lived through persecution for much of the church age. So what? It has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture. We are at the END of the church age, and judgment is coming. God's plan will be to destroy the world and the sinners in the world.
Most of the Tribulation
is persecution of believers.
Matthew 24:9–13 (NKJV)
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Wrath is poured out on the wicked.
EXACTLY! Good point! The Body of Christ is NOT the wicked. That is why God has planned an escape for us. Did you not read Luke 21:36?
Luke 21:36 (NKJV)
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Those who die before the Tribulation starts will have been counted worthy to escape.
Revelation 3:10 (NKJV)
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Since the hour of trial comes on the whole world, the Philadelphian church will already be physically dead.
In contrast, to the Laodicean church:
Revelation 3:18 (NKJV)
18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
White garments may be the white robes that the martyrs get. God may require their faith to be refined in the fire of affliction.
In the trumpet/bowl judgments, the 144,000 sealed Jewish believers in Jesus are protected from the wrath
Another good point. So please explain, if the Body of Christ is still on the earth, WHY would the Jews be sealed for their protection and NOT THE CHURCH? Another good observation that many here don't believe: that God's wrath is in the trumpet judgments.
Because it seems the Lord will allow the rest to be overcome by the government of the beast before the wrath comes into question.
Personally I believe it is impossible for Christians to survive the Tribulation unless they are one of the 144,000, which is something no one should assume.
Wow! I am beginning to be amazed at your theories! You just said the 144,000 are JEWS. Are you of the "Jehovah's Witness" group that believes ONLY 144,000 will be saved? I surely hope not! Well, they ARE Jews: every one a descendant of Jacob. Meanwhile, most of the Gentile church of today are NOT descendants of Jacob. I guess perhaps you really DO believe that God meant what He said: that the saints would be OVERCOME. Most here simply refuse to believe this.
No, I am not a Jehovah's Witness. I believe that God will give these 144,000 Jewish believers the only clear protection to survive the Tribulation. Surviving and being saved are not the same thing. Just because "most here refuse to believe this" doesn't mean I am wrong.
Who are we to accuse Him of being unloving?
This goes back to the very question I asked of you. God IS love. I can assure you, His love for us would prevent Him EVER submitting His beloved to His own wrath! He is not mad at US! His wrath is for the sinners! God has no reason to punish His beloved. Neither will He. That is simply false doctrine.
His love for us will not prevent us from being persecuted unto death. You really don't have a biblical basis for maintaining that God will not allow this. Yes, He loves us, but He loves those who He appointed but who don't know Him yet. Who's to say they won't know Him because of the witness of many people around them who are willing to die for their faith?
YOU can escape His wrath if you could only believe. If I were you, I would camp out on Luke 21:36.
The secret of the seed sown in stony ground is "yet he has no root in himself." If someone is born again and immediately begins studying God's word, praying, attending church at every opportunity, they WILL grow deep roots.
You think I am stony ground because I don't believe your posttrib theories? I can assure you, NEITHER DOES JESUS believe your theories.
Luke 21:35–36 (NKJV)
35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Since it comes on all those who dwell on the face of the earth, the only way to avoid it is to die before it starts.
No, I am concerned you are stony ground on the basis of your refusal to entertain that God could in fact let most of His Church be persecuted severely as in the Tribulation. If the Tribulation happens as I think and you are here, will you love Him or will you shake your fist at Him?
I guess you just don't know yet that what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 about the TIMING of the rapture points to only ONE place in Revelation and that is just before the 6th seal. The rapture will come a moment before the earthquake. In fact, the earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising around the world. It will be the first worldwide earthquake. It will also be Paul's "sudden destruction." Paul told us that this sudden destruction will be the start of the DAY and the start of His WRATH. Then, John SAW with his own eyes the raptured church IN HEAVEN right after the 6th seal. What more proof do you need? But God gave us still more. We have no appointment with His wrath.
1 Thessalonians 5:1–11 (NKJV)
5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
Your thoughts are all conjecture. Paul is saying is that true Christians will not be surprised by the day of the Lord. We are appointed for salvation, as opposed to a place in the Lake of Fire.
I think you are referring to Revelation 7:9-17. I believe these are the martyrs from the Tribulation who are dressed in white robes. They are introduced in Seal 5 (Chapter 6, verses 9-11). Notice the white robes are in both passages. Also, these "are they who have come out the great tribulation", so they couldn't have gotten there without having lived in the Tribulation.
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rev 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Every one of these verses is proof of a pretrib rapture.
No, they aren't proof of a pre-tribulation rapture.
The wrath we are not appointed to is an eternity in the Lake of Fire. Jesus' death is what made it possible for us to live as opposed to dying (eternally apart from God, conscious, feeling) in the Lake of Fire.