Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[ivebeenshown]

What you are missing is that the gospels are not a part of the church. That was OLD Covenant and the NEW did not come until after Jesus rose from the dead. Then, it was God's plan that Israel as a nation would accept Him as their Messiah and then the JEWS would take the gospel to the world. Obviously that did not happen. God gave them a few years to repent, but they did not, so God turned to the Gentiles.

The Jewish church, of which the Disciples were a part, disappeared. God sent Paul to the Gentiles to "bring forth the fruits thereof." Therefore, much of what you are using to prove a posttrib rapture has nothing to do with the Gentile church of today or the rapture of said church. For that we must study Paul, for He was given the revelation of the rapture. You can't find the timing of the rapture in the Gospels for it is simply not there, except perhaps in a parable.

The coming of Jesus is written of in more letters than just those to the Thessalonians. It appears in 1 Corinthians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, James, Jude, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, Hebrews, Titus, Philippians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Colossians. It may appear elsewhere, but why would all of these letters speak of the Lord's coming without a single mention that it is a different coming than the one the Lord himself spoke of in the Gospels? Every time, it is a singular event, which no distinguishing adjective like "his third coming" or "his coming before the tribulation":

• Acts of the Apostles 1:11 "Shall come"
• 1 Corinthians 1:7 "The coming"
• 1 Corinthians 4:5 "The Lord come"
• 1 Corinthians 11:26 "Til he come"
• 1 Corinthians 15:23 "At his coming"
• 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "Wait for his Son from heaven"
• 1 Thessalonians 2:19 "At his coming"
• 1 Thessalonians 3:13 "At his coming"
• 1 Thessalonians 4:15 "The coming"
• 1 Thessalonians 5:23 "The coming"
• 2 Thessalonians 2:1 "The coming"
• 2 Thessalonians 2:8 "The coming"
• 1 Timothy 6:14 "Til the appearing"
• 2 Timothy 4:1 "At his appearing"
• 2 Timothy 4:8 "At his appearing"
• Philippians 3:20 "we look for the savior"
• Titus 2:13 "the appearing"
• Hebrews 9:28 "shall appear a second time"
• Colossians 3:4 "shall appear"
• 1 Peter 1:7 "the appearing"
• 1 Peter 1:13 "the revelation"
• 2 Peter 3:4 "his coming"
• James 5:7-8 "the coming"
• Jude 1:14-15 "the Lord cometh"
• 1 John 2:28 "his coming"

Please, do explain for us which of these references to the Lord's coming are referring to one coming or the other that you believe in, and why.

Next, when Jesus mentioned Noah and Lot, His PURPOSE there was only about the SUDDENNESS of their destruction. If you doubt this, look at the preposition "for." Jesus TELLS us what His meaning was, WHY He brought up Noah and Lot.

In both cases they got up one morning thinking life would be just like all mornings before that one, and life would go on. But in truth, they never lived to see another day. THAT was the point Jesus was making. Paul added to this thought by telling us His coming for the pretrib rapture would come in a time of peace and safety. Those in Noah's day had NO IDEA that morning would be their last morning. Same with Lot. They were LIVING in "peace and safety."

His intent was not only to convey the suddenness of the destruction, but the destruction itself. When Jesus comes in power and glory, the wicked will be utterly destroyed.

Now, how do you propose to find a time of "peace and safety" when almost all of earth's population has been decimated? And after all the trumpets and vials? NO ONE will even think of peace and safety. They will all be scared out of their wits. In fact, just about the ONLY time for peace and safety will be just before the pretrib rapture. After that, WRATH and the DAY of wrath. No peace, and no safety after the 1st trumpet sounds. So Noah and Lot were not about who was taken and who was left. It was about suddenness. The "one taken" will most likely be in the parable of the tares.

But, that being said, whenever the rapture will be, "one will be taken and one left."

I don't think anyone has said that the vials will occur before the rapture. I know I haven't, anyways. I believe the vials are God's wrath -- Revelation clearly says that they are. It does not say that the trumpets are God's wrath. I believe the seven seals are opened in order, and the seven trumpets are blown in order, and the seven vials are poured in order. I just don't believe that each of these 'sets' are temporally exclusive of each other.

John SAW the church in heaven before he even began the 70th week. That fact squashes all posttrib arguments.

It does not, because John did not say they were there because of the rapture, or that they were resurrected in any way, or that they were gathered at a coming of Christ. John simply recorded that he envisioned souls in heaven.

 

[Luke17:37]

What Paul or ANYONE else went through back then has nothing to do with us at the end of this age. There was not "rapture" for any age but our age.

Yes, it is relevant. There is no basis for your hope in a pre-tribulation rapture.

We know there WILL BE a catching up because it is written. The choice seems to be on this thread that this catching up will be at the end of the 70th week or at the beginning. So our differences are only 7 plus years. You have to ask yourself, if only 7 years, WHY NOT BEFORE when the other choice is to beat up and Kill the bride? Do you really imagine that is His will?

Why not before? Well, because there isn't any biblical reason to hope for it. The clearest reading of Scripture never suggests it.

Yes, I do imagine that this is His will. And this is why:

Matthew 24:9 (NKJV)
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

Luke 21:12–19 (NKJV)
12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.

John 16:2–4 (NKJV)
2 They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. 4 But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.
“And these things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Revelation 2:10 (NKJV)
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Revelation 6:9–11 (NKJV)
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Revelation 7:9–17 (NKJV)
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes [martyrs--see chapter 6], with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Revelation 12:10–11 (NKJV)
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Revelation 12:17 (NKJV)
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:5–10 (NKJV)
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 13:15 (NKJV)
15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

Revelation 14:9–13 (NKJV)
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Revelation 15:2 (NKJV)
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.

Revelation 17:6 (NKJV)
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

Revelation 18:24 (NKJV)
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

Revelation 19:2 (NKJV)
2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”

Revelation 20:4–6 (NKJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

When we put all the end time scriptures together, we know this catching up will be so that we escape God's wrath poured out.

I don't see this.

Neither can one hope to live through this time of the 70th week and escape His wrath while being left behind at the pretrib rapture. NO ONE ON EARTH will escape His wrath. I could say "no one under the sun..." When God cranks up the heat of the sun it will affect ALL on the earth. Neither can one say they will escape God's wrath but not Satan's wrath, for they are CONCURRENT.

This is all dependent on your classification of the word "wrath." If you are using a different classification than God, you are in trouble, since you aren't prepared to consider living in the Tribulation (which I don't, for the most part, see as being "God's wrath"). The bowls are classified as wrath. But the first bowl, for example, only afflicts those with the mark of the beast (no Christians).

If your view of God persists in being so narrow, you are at great risk for disowning Him.

Not at all. I just know the truth in this matter.

So, if it turns out that I am right and God does fully intend to allow His Church to be overcome (physically) for the most part during the Tribulation, you are saying that you will still follow Him? Good. Because it sounds like you can't worship a God who would allow such widespread terrible suffering.

Please don't! Read the book of Acts.

Did you miss the fact that the book of Acts was the first century church? What does that have to do with the rapture which is still future? I will answer for you: NOTHING. Perhaps you don't understand that all that happened to Christian people in the past was NOT God being angry with them. It was Satan's hatred for them. The future rapture will be so the church can escape God's wrath poured out. Perhaps you need to study 1 Thes. 5 again.

Acts is not irrelevant. God allowed the first century church to experience enormous persecution. Why should we be different? And why should we be different than the Iraqi and Syrian Christians who are being beheaded by ISIS right now? The Tribulation, for Christians, will NOT be God being angry with them. It will be Satan's hatred for them. By the time the true wrath of God comes around, personally I believe that all the Christians will be dead except for the 144,000 sealed Jewish believers.

Revelation 9:4 (NKJV)
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Do a word study on persecution in the New Testament.

This would be a non-sequitur. We are at the very end of this age and what happened before in the chuch age has nothing to do with the rapture.

You are in error. The Scriptures are timeless.

Matthew 5:10–12 (NKJV)
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 10:24–26 (NKJV)
24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household! 26 Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.

2 Corinthians 4:8–11 (NKJV)
8 We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed—10 always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. 11 For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

2 Timothy 3:12 (NKJV)
12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

Read Revelation and see how most of the faithful are given into Satan's hand to be killed.

Again a non-sequitur. They are given into Satan's hands because they were left behind when God pulled those that believe in Him out from His wrath. In other words, they set their OWN appointment with wrath.

All your other reasons (in the next paragraph) are only human reasoning that does not fit this discussion. The rapture comes a moment before the judgment where God will judge the entire world. The church - the body of Christ on earth will have no business being judged for we have judged ourselves. This judgment will be God's wrath poured out. If you wish to set your OWN appointment for His wrath, you can, and He will allow it. but don't try to set an appointment for others!

This is your opinion; it is not a Scriptural fact.

The Lord will be our judge and it will be applied personally, not through a blanket "judgment."

1 Corinthians 4:4–5 (NKJV)
4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

2 Corinthians 5:10 (NKJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Persecution and wrath are not the same thing. Persecution is promised to all believers.

And the church has lived through persecution for much of the church age. So what? It has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture. We are at the END of the church age, and judgment is coming. God's plan will be to destroy the world and the sinners in the world.

Most of the Tribulation is persecution of believers.

Matthew 24:9–13 (NKJV)
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Wrath is poured out on the wicked.

EXACTLY! Good point! The Body of Christ is NOT the wicked. That is why God has planned an escape for us. Did you not read Luke 21:36?

Luke 21:36 (NKJV)
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Those who die before the Tribulation starts will have been counted worthy to escape.

Revelation 3:10 (NKJV)
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Since the hour of trial comes on the whole world, the Philadelphian church will already be physically dead.

In contrast, to the Laodicean church:
Revelation 3:18 (NKJV)
18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

White garments may be the white robes that the martyrs get. God may require their faith to be refined in the fire of affliction.

In the trumpet/bowl judgments, the 144,000 sealed Jewish believers in Jesus are protected from the wrath

Another good point. So please explain, if the Body of Christ is still on the earth, WHY would the Jews be sealed for their protection and NOT THE CHURCH? Another good observation that many here don't believe: that God's wrath is in the trumpet judgments.

Because it seems the Lord will allow the rest to be overcome by the government of the beast before the wrath comes into question.

Personally I believe it is impossible for Christians to survive the Tribulation unless they are one of the 144,000, which is something no one should assume.

Wow! I am beginning to be amazed at your theories! You just said the 144,000 are JEWS. Are you of the "Jehovah's Witness" group that believes ONLY 144,000 will be saved? I surely hope not! Well, they ARE Jews: every one a descendant of Jacob. Meanwhile, most of the Gentile church of today are NOT descendants of Jacob. I guess perhaps you really DO believe that God meant what He said: that the saints would be OVERCOME. Most here simply refuse to believe this.

No, I am not a Jehovah's Witness. I believe that God will give these 144,000 Jewish believers the only clear protection to survive the Tribulation. Surviving and being saved are not the same thing. Just because "most here refuse to believe this" doesn't mean I am wrong.

Who are we to accuse Him of being unloving?

This goes back to the very question I asked of you. God IS love. I can assure you, His love for us would prevent Him EVER submitting His beloved to His own wrath! He is not mad at US! His wrath is for the sinners! God has no reason to punish His beloved. Neither will He. That is simply false doctrine.

His love for us will not prevent us from being persecuted unto death. You really don't have a biblical basis for maintaining that God will not allow this. Yes, He loves us, but He loves those who He appointed but who don't know Him yet. Who's to say they won't know Him because of the witness of many people around them who are willing to die for their faith?

YOU can escape His wrath if you could only believe. If I were you, I would camp out on Luke 21:36.

The secret of the seed sown in stony ground is "yet he has no root in himself." If someone is born again and immediately begins studying God's word, praying, attending church at every opportunity, they WILL grow deep roots.

You think I am stony ground because I don't believe your posttrib theories? I can assure you, NEITHER DOES JESUS believe your theories.

Luke 21:35–36 (NKJV)
35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Since it comes on all those who dwell on the face of the earth, the only way to avoid it is to die before it starts.

No, I am concerned you are stony ground on the basis of your refusal to entertain that God could in fact let most of His Church be persecuted severely as in the Tribulation. If the Tribulation happens as I think and you are here, will you love Him or will you shake your fist at Him?

I guess you just don't know yet that what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 about the TIMING of the rapture points to only ONE place in Revelation and that is just before the 6th seal. The rapture will come a moment before the earthquake. In fact, the earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising around the world. It will be the first worldwide earthquake. It will also be Paul's "sudden destruction." Paul told us that this sudden destruction will be the start of the DAY and the start of His WRATH. Then, John SAW with his own eyes the raptured church IN HEAVEN right after the 6th seal. What more proof do you need? But God gave us still more. We have no appointment with His wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:1–11 (NKJV)
5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

Your thoughts are all conjecture. Paul is saying is that true Christians will not be surprised by the day of the Lord. We are appointed for salvation, as opposed to a place in the Lake of Fire.

I think you are referring to Revelation 7:9-17. I believe these are the martyrs from the Tribulation who are dressed in white robes. They are introduced in Seal 5 (Chapter 6, verses 9-11). Notice the white robes are in both passages. Also, these "are they who have come out the great tribulation", so they couldn't have gotten there without having lived in the Tribulation.

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rev 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Every one of these verses is proof of a pretrib rapture.

No, they aren't proof of a pre-tribulation rapture.
The wrath we are not appointed to is an eternity in the Lake of Fire. Jesus' death is what made it possible for us to live as opposed to dying (eternally apart from God, conscious, feeling) in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Luke17:37]

While the term "the first resurrection" occurs in Rev 20:5, that is only because it must be contrasted with the second resurrection (of the unjust or the unrighteous) in Rev 20:12.

As a matter of fact, the first resurrection (of the just) has three phases similar to a Hebrew harvest (1 Cor 15:23,24): (1) Christ the first fruits, (2) then they that are Christ's at His coming (the Rapture) which is the main harvest, and (3) then cometh the end (the Tribulation saints which are the gleanings).

So once again, the Church does has nothing to do with the universal weeping, wailing, and mourning connected with the Second Coming of Christ. That would be ludicrous.

Fact, huh? There is no Scriptural basis for this conjecture that the first resurrection is divided between the beginning and the end of Revelation. That's just your opinion. The mourning at Jesus' coming will be from all the wicked (who will be almost everyone).

 

[Luke17:37]

Most pretribbers believe the rapture of the church is PART of the first resurrection. How many times must I remind you that the word "first" there is a translation of a Greek word? Have you ever looked up the Greek word? John was not speaking of sequence or timing! ALL believers will take part in the "first" or primary resurrection, INCLUDING JESUS as the very first one.

Oh, the scolding! Like a parent of a wayward child! "How many times must I remind you?" You are so disrespectful. You are only emboldened to talk like this because you can't see me face to face.

Like I told you, the most frequent context of the word is translated "first", not "chief". You are not the authority the book of Revelation. Jesus is. He can judge me. I always aspire to take Scripture at its clearest context. That, to me, is that the first resurrection is the post-tribulation resurrection. May I remind you that I was a pre-tribber until I was 16 or 17. The lack of clear Scriptural basis for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (and my willingness let my views conform to Scripture, even though I don't like the idea of being killed) is what changed my mind.

 

[Luke17:37]

You misunderstood me. The rapture is part of the first resurrection and this first resurrection happens in stages. The first resurrection is for the righteous only. The second resurrection is entirely different and is for the unbelievers.

I don't see a biblical basis for dividing the first resurrection into stages.

 

[Luke17:37]

OF COURSE the meaning of the Greek is important! That is the language much of the New Testament was written in. I am trying to tell you that the Greek behind the word "first" is not a TIMING issue, it is a priority issue. This same word was translate CHIEF several times. So read that with chief in it:

4. I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the chief or most honorable resurrection.

It cannot mean first as in a sequence, because Jesus was a part of this chief or most honorable resurrection. As I said before, since there are only TWO resurrections, Jesus MUST BE the firstfruits of one of the two. Will you assign his resurrecton to the resurrection of the sinner? I think not!

The first resurrection is after the Tribulation and the second resurrection is after the Millennium.

No, you are mistaken. Of course PART of it will after, as in those beheaded. The first or primary or most honorable resurrection began with JESUS as the firstfruits. You only THINK it started after the tribulation. It is written there, but that is certainly NOT where it started. Did you know that the 144,000 are also a part of this resurrection? ALL righteous were, are and will be a part of this most honorable of resurrections. And certainly those that lost their head also will be. So PLEASE quit thinking TIMING and think either honorable or not honorable. How do you suppose those seen seating upon throne judging got there? What resurrection did they come from?

Here is Strong's definition of the Greek word Protos:

1. first in time or place
   1. in any succession of things or persons
2. first in rank
   1. influence, honour
   2. chief
   3. principal
3. first, at the first

So a real and true meaning CAN BE "first in rank or influence or honor: chief or principle." Strongs also has "most important." This is the intended meaning in Rev. 20. It is the MOST IMPORTANT resurrection.

Of course it can also be first in timing, but this is NOT the meaning for Rev. 20.

I think I already addressed this sufficiently in our earlier posts. Just because the meaning can be chief, does not mean that it is chief. I'll let Jesus decide whether I am mistaken or not, just as I'll let Jesus decide the intended meaning of Revelation 20.

 

[Luke17:37]

Yes, there will be a gathering of the elect after the tribulation, but it will probably be for the sheep and goat judgment at that time.

For timing on the rapture, we must look at Paul's writing for he was the only writer to received revelation on it. Study 1 thes. 5 and discover that Paul's rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY and the start of His wrath. That fits ONLY at the 6th seal. Then John SAW the raptured church in heaven right after the 6th seal. What more proof do you need?

It's not a thing for the Church to experience to whisk them out before the Tribulation.

OF COURSE It is: God has given us an escape. Of course, if you don't wish to take it, I believe He will allow you to witness His wrath first hand. Just know that you will be overcome.

The first resurrection/rapture occurs in Revelation 20 and includes the souls of those who are beheaded during the Tribulation

This most honorable of resurrections will also include Jesus' resurrection, the pretrib raptured church's resurrection, the resurrection of the 144,000 and finally those beheaded.

 

[n2thelight]

I disagree with Bible2 on this issue.
No one goes to heaven..... How clear is that? Jesus said it: John 13:3

If no one goes to heaven,how does Christ bring them from there at His return?

 

[n2thelight]

It is impossible to read scripture and not believe in the rapture...

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.- Revelation 13:5

If we were around when the anti-Christ comes...

1. Christ would not come as in the times of Noah or in the times of Lot
2. You would be able to discern the reign of the Anti-Christ and thus the time of Christ's second return.
3. As the Bible says that no man knows the time of the rapture so this cannot be something obvious
4. If we are to return with Christ to reign a thousand years, how would that be so if we are already on earth?

1. All will think him to be Christ
2 If you don't know,God will send you that spirit of slumber
3. No one knows the time of Christ return,yet if you watch the signs,you should know the season.Again it's like a prgnant woman
4. Those who have died in Him return with Him.

 

[Luke17:37]

Yes, there will be a gathering of the elect after the tribulation, but it will probably be for the sheep and goat judgment at that time.

For timing on the rapture, we must look at Paul's writing for he was the only writer to received revelation on it. Study 1 thes. 5 and discover that Paul's rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY and the start of His wrath. That fits ONLY at the 6th seal. Then John SAW the raptured church in heaven right after the 6th seal. What more proof do you need?

See, this is interesting! Since none of the other Scriptures testify to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, you base your entire faith in Pre-Tribulation on one passage: 1 Thessalonians 5.

1 Thessalonians 5:1–11 (NKJV)
5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

True Christians obtain salvation, not wrath (eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire).

Paul refers to the day of the Lord as a thief in the night. How would they "know" this about the "pre-tribulation rapture" if this was the first revelation of the pre-tribulation rapture? They couldn't. Paul was talking about the resurrection/rapture at the return of Christ, of which Christ warned that it is like a thief in the night. Those who are not prepared--all the wicked, the apostate (most likely), the hypocrites, the people who claim to know Christ but refuse to obey Him--will go "where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Please understand, iamlamad, I am not trying to make you feel bad. I am sharing because I don't want you to be deceived.

It's not a thing for the Church to experience to whisk them out before the Tribulation.

OF COURSE It is: God has given us an escape. Of course, if you don't wish to take it, I believe He will allow you to witness His wrath first hand. Just know that you will be overcome.

There's nothing else to say here; we disagree.

The first resurrection/rapture occurs in Revelation 20 and includes the souls of those who are beheaded during the Tribulation

This most honorable of resurrections will also include Jesus' resurrection, the pretrib raptured church's resurrection, the resurrection of the 144,000 and finally those beheaded.

You define it in a strange way in order to try to fit your obtuse view into Scripture. This is not unlike people who claim that the days of Genesis 1 are millions or billions of years. Yet Scripture says, "For in six days God made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them" (Exodus 20:11). And the foundation of the gospel rests on Genesis 1-3, especially, that there was no death before sin, we need a blood sacrifice, and we have the promise of the Savior (Genesis 3:15). Yes, it's possible to believe the gospel and take a compromised position on Genesis 1-3, but in such a position there is no logical foundation for a belief in the gospel (What is sin? Why is death the penalty for sin? Why do we need a blood sacrifice? Why do we need a Savior...). The compromise of Genesis is also a slippery slope to believing that there is no such thing as a literal, bodily return of Christ (see 2 Peter 3:3-9).

 

[Luke17:37]

22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. - Luke 17


These passage only work with a pre-trib rapture...

1. As in the days of Noah - Everyday times... And then they were taken away
2. As in the days of Lot - Everyday times... And then they were taken away

Luke 17 includes this same parable, except for Jesus says, "For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left." (Luke 17:37-41) The taken are clearly the point, not whether there is peace on the earth. The taken of the flood are those who were killed when the flood came. So the taken at the return of Christ are those who are killed when Christ comes again. Their carcasses will be eaten by vultures (Luke 17:37). This is consistent with Revelation 19:17-18, 21, which records birds eating the flesh of the slain armies, and is also consistent with a post-tribulation rapture.

 

[Psalm3704]

Fact, huh? There is no Scriptural basis for this conjecture that the first resurrection is divided between the beginning and the end of Revelation. That's just your opinion. The mourning at Jesus' coming will be from all the wicked (who will be almost everyone).

I don't see a biblical basis for dividing the first resurrection into stages.

Well another day goes by and another topic we find you in error. The 1st resurrection DOES happen in several stages. And it does not start at the beginning of the tribulation. The first of the 1st resurrection happened 2000 years ago when Christ died on the cross. He raised the dead (OT saints) and took them with Him to heaven: Matthew 27:50-53.

Matthew 27:50-53 NKJV
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.​

.

 

[Psalm3704]

If no one goes to heaven,how does Christ bring them from there at His return?

LOL good question!

 

[Psalm3704]

I disagree with Bible2 on this issue.
No one goes to heaven..... How clear is that? Jesus said it: John 13:3

You're in error again Keras. Click on John 13:3 and you see it say nothing about no one goes to heaven. Instead, what it does say is:

[Jesus], knowing that the Father had given all the things into his hands, and that he came forth from God, and goeth unto God,​

Now, how clear is this? And I showed you Matthew 27:50-53 before, last month. You're just deliberately ignoring scripture.

Matthew 27:50-53 NKJV
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.​

.

 

[Psalm3704]

His next try will just be the same thing copied and pasted.

Some things in life are guaranteed to happen.





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[Bible2+]

Psalm3704 said in post 5310:

It tells us the woman (who is figuratively Israel) will flee to the wilderness for a time, times and half a time (3.5 years).

Note that the woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

*******

Psalm3704 said in post 5312:

Paul said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God . . .

1 Corinthians 15:50 refers to people in mortal/corruptible flesh and blood bodies, as opposed to people in immortal/incorruptible resurrection "flesh and bone" bodies (possibly without blood as we know it) like Jesus was resurrected into on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).

1 Corinthians 15:50 means that people in mortal bodies won't inherit the eternal (as opposed to the millennial) aspect of the kingdom of God, which will be on the new earth, in the descended New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:1 to 22:15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 22:15).

1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies will inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom, which will be on the present earth. For the elect Jews who won't become believers until Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14) could inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom (Zechariah 14:5-21, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) could be experienced only by those who had become believers before the 2nd coming.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies will even enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For just as people can enter someone's house and stay there for awhile without inheriting that house, so the people left alive at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) who won't get saved at that time will enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom in their mortal bodies without inheriting the kingdom. Instead, they will be its forced subjects (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3), ruled over with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2).

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies can even enter the 3rd-heaven aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For at the time of Revelation 11:11-12, at one point during the tribulation, the 2 witnesses will be in resuscitated mortal bodies, like, for example, the resuscitated mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). For the resurrection of believers into immortal physical bodies won't happen until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And when Revelation 11:12 shows that the 2 witnesses will ascend up to the 3rd heaven in their resuscitated mortal bodies, it doesn't say that they will inherit the 3rd heaven, just as when Paul says that he at one point during his lifetime could have been taken to the 3rd heaven in his mortal body (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), he doesn't say that he inherited the 3rd heaven, and just as when Enoch and Elijah were taken to the 3rd heaven in their mortal bodies (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11), it doesn't say that they inherited the 3rd heaven.

*******

Psalm3704 said in post 5314:

Read the comment I made to Riberra in the above post concerning 1 Cor 15:50-55 and Isaiah 65:17-20.

Isaiah 65:20 could refer to a new race of humans who will be created along with the new earth (Isaiah 65:17), but who will fall into sin and mortality like Adam and Eve did. But even as mortals, they could live for about 900 years, like Adam and generations after him lived that long (Genesis 5:5-27), so that if one of them dies at 100, it will be like he died in his youth (Isaiah 65:20b).

If Isaiah 65:20 does refer to the new earth, then it can't refer to any humans born on our present earth. For by the time that the new earth is created (Revelation 21:1), all humans born on our present earth who got saved and remained obedient will have been resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal physical bodies (Revelation 21:4; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Romans 8:23-25). And all who didn't get saved or who remained disobedient will have been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 21:8, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Isaiah 66:22,24, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

The physically resurrected, immortal humans could minister to the new race of fallen, mortal humans (of Isaiah 65:20) in the same way that angels now minister to us (Hebrews 1:14). For resurrected, immortal humans will be equal to the angels (Luke 20:36).

Psalm3704 said in post 5314:

Now can you find the rapture mentioned anywhere in the book of 2 Thessalonians?

2 Thessalonians 2:1 ¶Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him . . .

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

*******

Psalm3704 said in post 5392:

He raised the dead (OT saints) and took them with Him to heaven: Matthew 27:50-53.

Note that the original Greek word (egeiro: G1453) translated as "arose" in Matthew 27:52 can refer to recently-dead people's bodies being resuscitated back to mortal life, like how Jesus "raised (egeiro)" the recently-dead Lazarus (John 12:1), who was one of Jesus' followers (John 11:11, cf. John 15:14), back to mortal life, by crying out with a loud voice (John 11:43-44). The dead saints who were raised sometime later when they heard Jesus cry out with a loud voice on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-52, John 5:25), and who came out of their graves after Jesus' physical resurrection (Matthew 27:53), could have also been recently-dead followers of Jesus. Their bodies were resuscitated back to mortal life, like happened with Lazarus (John 12:1). For the resurrection of Jesus' followers into immortal physical bodies won't happen until his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

*******

Psalm3704 said in post 5393:

How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven?

Note that Matthew 24:31's parallel verse of Mark 13:27 shows that the church will be gathered together from both heaven and earth.

Psalm3704 said in post 5393:

People go up in a rapture, they don't come down.

Note that they can come down after they go up, and not necessarily in the same spot on the earth. For the rapture is not just a catching up, but also a gathering together to Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). That is, the rapture will take believers straight up into the sky wherever they are on the earth's surface. But this will be thousands of different places in the sky (the 1st heaven), all around the globe. So then they will need to be gathered together by angels (Mark 13:27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where Jesus will be, above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). For example, if a believer is raptured into the sky above New Zealand, he will then need to be led by an angel over oceans and continents until he arrives above Jerusalem.

So this is one purpose for the rapture: to get believers from all around the globe into one place in the sky above Jerusalem, to meet with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17b).

A 2nd purpose will be so that the church can then be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church can then be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), in the sky, before Jesus descends to wage war against the armies of the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

 

[Bible2+]

BABerean2 said in post 5317:

You also continue to insist that a temple made with hands will be the temple of God.

Note that Acts 7:48-50, like Acts 17:24, refers back to the principle of Isaiah 66:1-2a, which was true even at the time of Solomon's temple (2 Chronicles 2:6). It means that the Creator God YHWH is too big to dwell only in temples made with hands. For it is not contradicting that God did dwell in Solomon's temple in the earthly Jerusalem (1 Kings 8:11), and then God dwelt in the 2nd temple in the earthly Jerusalem (Matthew 23:21), in which 2nd temple the church continued to worship God, even after Jesus' sacrificial death for our sins and his physical resurrection (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17). And so nothing requires that God won't also dwell in the 3rd temple which will be built in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). And God could also dwell in the 4th temple which will be built in the earthly Jerusalem during the future millennium (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13), which won't begin until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

BABerean2 said in post 5317:

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

John 2:19,21 was fulfilled at Jesus' physical resurrection on the 3rd day after his death on the Cross for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3-4, Luke 24:36).

The ultimate temple will be the Trinity itself on the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, which contains no temple building (Revelation 21:22). While Jesus' individual human body is already a temple of God (John 2:21), note that at the time of his 1st coming, his body-temple coexisted with the 2nd temple building in Jerusalem, which was also indwelt by God at the same time (Matthew 23:21). And his body-temple also coexisted, and still coexists today, with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19). There is now also the church-as-a-whole figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), and the myriad different temples of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). There will also be a 3rd, earthly, literal temple building in Jerusalem during the future tribulation (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and also a 4th, earthly, literal temple building in Jerusalem during the future millennium (Zechariah 14:20-21), which won't begin until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

BABerean2 said in post 5317:

The New Testament temple is Jesus Christ and those indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

Note that while the church as a whole is indeed a figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), it isn't the only temple of God. For it coexisted with the literal, 2nd temple building which was in Jerusalem in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), just as the church coexisted, and still coexists today, with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus' individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). And if the church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all of these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21), and even at the time of the early church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). That is why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in his temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the 2nd temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old-Covenant-Mosaic-law 3rd temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God, because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6), because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

 

[Bible2+]

iamlamad said in post 5319:

I am the one warning people that they will be left behind.

Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture.

Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that these passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) in the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

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iamlamad said in post 5320:

The moment the pretrib rapture takes place, the age of grace is over.

Regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

iamlamad said in post 5320:

Go back and read what Daniel said: the 70th weeks concern HIS people, not Gentiles.

Note that just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

iamlamad said in post 5320:

Of course the Old Covenant will be Old. I think in all bibles it is called "the Old Testament." But it will not be finished until the 70th week is finished.

Actually, it was finished on the Cross. For on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

iamlamad said in post 5320:

God created a parentheses for the Gentile church age.

Note that there is no such thing as "the Gentile church". For the church includes both believing Jews and believing Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:13).

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iamlamad said in post 5321:

One can come now and escape what is coming . . .

Note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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iamlamad said in post 5324:

The truth is, the first five seals were broken as soon as Jesus ascended and took the book from the Father.

Actually, the last 3 of the 4 horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

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iamlamad said in post 5325:

John then SAW THE RAPTURED CHURCH IN HEAVEN shortly after that.

Note that Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture into heaven. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

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iamlamad said in post 5337:

Revelation 14:6-7

Note that both elements of the "everlasting gospel" (i.e. for all time) in Revelation 14:6-7 are synecdochic parts of the gospel which Jesus and the apostles preached in the 1st century AD (e.g. Matthew 10:28, Romans 11:20-22, Romans 15:6), and which is recorded in the New Testament.

Revelation 14:6-20 will occur after the events of the future tribulation's first 6 trumpets up to Revelation 9:21, and at the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Revelation 14:9-11 will be a warning to people (including those in the church) not to worship the Antichrist or they will suffer the eternal wrath of God, which will be in the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

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iamlamad said in post 5339:

I don't think there is anything in Matthew 24 concerning the church of today.

Note that Jesus spoke specifically of his "church" (Matthew 16:18, Matthew 18:17) before he spoke Matthew 24. And Matthew 24 refers to the future tribulation, by which time the church will have existed for some 2,000 years. The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today (whether Jewish or Gentile), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately only to believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed only to believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14, Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21, and Matthew 28 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3, Matthew 28:18-19), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, whether genetic Jews or Gentiles, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), and/or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he is letting them and their little ones suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:37-39).

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iamlamad said in post 5351:

I guess you just don't know yet that what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. 5 about the TIMING of the rapture points to only ONE place in Revelation and that is just before the 6th seal. The rapture will come a moment before the earthquake. In fact, the earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising around the world.

Note that there is no coming of Jesus or resurrection at the 6th seal. Instead, the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the 1st heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

iamlamad said in post 5351:

It will also be Paul's "sudden destruction."

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Note that this could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

iamlamad said in post 5351:

Rev 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Note that the 7 letters to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the 1st century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

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iamlamad said in post 5369:

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

In Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but who will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus himself (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will be ashamed, and will all weep and become saved when they see Jesus and realize that he truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18).

Also, the fullness of the Gentiles coming in during the tribulation doesn't mean that no Gentiles will be added to the church during the subsequent millennium, because they will be (Isaiah 66:19-20). For "fullness" doesn't have to mean "no more after that". For example, even after a cup has been filled with wine, more wine can be added to it, so that the "cup runneth over" (Psalms 23:5b). Also, it doesn't matter that the new believers during the millennium will be added to the church/bride (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6, Ephesians 5:30-32) after the marriage occurred at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7). For as many husbands have discovered, a bride can increase in size after her wedding.

iamlamad said in post 5369:

HOW will you get to the marriage?

In Revelation 19:7, the church is in the 1st heaven, the sky, for the wedding, and it got there at the post-tribulation rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31).

 

[Bible2+]

keras said in post 5334:

No one goes to heaven..... How clear is that? Jesus said it:

John 3:13 means that no man but Jesus had ascended into heaven in a way involving his own power. For Elijah had ascended into heaven, but by an external power (2 Kings 2:11). And if he did that, then Enoch and Moses could have also ascended into heaven by an external power (Hebrews 11:5, Genesis 5:24, Jude 1:9). And at one point during the future tribulation, so will the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church, represented by the "man child", be caught up into heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus). And the 2 witnesses will also eventually be taken into heaven (Revelation 11:12). Also, the apostle Paul, at one point during his lifetime, was temporarily taken into heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), just as the apostle John was at one point (Revelation 4).

In John 3:13, "ascended" is in the active voice, which, while it doesn't require that the subject ascended by his own power, it can mean that. For example, compare Jesus "rising up" in Luke 22:45.

Regarding Jesus' post-resurrection ascension, the passive-voice ascension in Acts 1:11 can be taken together with the active voice ascension in Ephesians 4:8 to mean that Jesus' post-resurrection ascension occurred by both an external power and his own power working together at the same time. An analogy would be a man walking up an ascending escalator. But John 3:13 was spoken years before Acts 1:11 occurred. And John 3:13 was referring to a perfect-tense ascension of Jesus, meaning that it had already been completed sometime before John 3:13 was spoken. This prior ascension of Jesus, like his later ascension in Ephesians 4:8 and Acts 1:11, could have involved his own power. For in John 3:13, "ascended" is in the active voice.

 

[Bible2+]

rockytopva said in post 5340:

If we were around when the anti-Christ comes...

1. Christ would not come as in the times of Noah or in the times of Lot

Note that Matthew 24:37-41 refers to "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-30).

Matthew 24:37-41 means that the unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it actually happens. For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (of Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9); and the power that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36); and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected 1st battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

rockytopva said in post 5340:

2. You would be able to discern the reign of the Anti-Christ and thus the time of Christ's second return.
3. As the Bible says that no man knows the time of the rapture so this cannot be something obvious

Note that Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36); he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and preterist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the 1st verse means that no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the 2nd verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

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Coming to know at a certain point in our future the date of Jesus' 2nd coming will help believers to endure patiently during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers. As an analogy, imagine that during a persecution of believers, you are thrown naked into a walk-in freezer. The door is locked and the lights are turned off, and you are just left in there to slowly suffer the freezing cold. You could freak out at this if you have no idea how long you are going to have to be in there. But what if right after they turn the lights off, you see a little light in the corner, and you walk over and see a note on the wall: "You will be let out and set free in 13.35 minutes" (cf. the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-12). This would greatly help you to remain calm and hang in there patiently for the whole time, even though you might suffer terribly from the cold. In the same way, knowing exactly when Jesus' 2nd coming will occur (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15) will help believers, during the worst time of the future tribulation for believers, to endure patiently to the end (Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10b).

rockytopva said in post 5340:

4. If we are to return with Christ to reign a thousand years, how would that be so if we are already on earth?

Note that Jesus' coming FOR the church and WITH the church will occur at the same 2nd coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth, and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be in the clouds above Jerusalem, before he descends to set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).