Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

And how are we sanctified?

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

Romans 15:16
that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

It is talking in retrospective of those who lived a sanctified and holy life.

'For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.' (Hebrews 10:14) (King James Version).

I mean, just keep reading. Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Those who judge their brother and sisters struggling with sin will surely reap what they sow.

But you believe that a believer cannot stop sinning. You also believe a believer can sin and still be saved. I do not believe that such beliefs are biblical. So no. I am not judging the believer as described in God's Word.


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[FreeGrace2]

I didn't say that grace began in the mid 20th century I said that YOUR VIEW of grace had its origin in the mid 20th century.

Please tell the thread what my view of grace is.

Your definition of grace is NOT supported by scripture

So, what is my definition of grace, since your post insinuates that you know.

 

[sdowney717]

It is talking in retrospective of those who lived a sanctified and holy life.

'For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.' (Hebrews 10:14) (King James Version).

I mean, just keep reading. Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.


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your not believing in the 'forever' part of being perfected.
You have the same trouble believing that Christ gives to believers eternal life, according to your view, it is only life, you're not believing it is eternal.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Free Grace theology erroneously teaches that grace is acquired through faith when the scripture asserts just the opposite. Faith is acquired through grace.

I directly challenge you to provide proof for your claim here. God's grace is extended to everyone. Regardless of faith. Did Jesus require any of those He healed to have faith? No.

"He helped them much who through grace had believed" Acts 18:27 NIV

Nice quote. Now, what does it mean and how does it support your claim?

Eph 2:8 says we are saved by grace through faith. iow, our salvation is by God's grace, meaning we don't deserve it and we can't earn it.

The irony of Free Grace theology is that it defines grace simply as "unmerited favor." Then its disciples say that it is acquired through faith. Duh! If grace is acquired through faith then it is NOT unmerited.

Until you provide evidence of your statement, I sincerely hope no one believes your post.

I would advise you not to follow a scheme of soterological interpretation that is not even 75 years old and has no scriptural merit.

Well, I guess you forgot my challenge to you.

 

[sdowney717]

Jason think about what you believe about this verse and believers committing sins and then will go to hell.
Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

For if some christian saved believer sins, there is no longer a sacrifice for sins, but only wrath, how could someone repent and be forgiven if there is no longer a sacrifice for sin for them?
Christ is only sacrificed one time, not again and again for our sins. Your logic would lead to being forgiven a possibility only one time and forever after a judgement of wrath and hell.

 

[Jack Terrence]

I agree with you that faith is acquired through grace and not the other way around.

I would point out, however, that unmerited favor is a perfectly legitimate definition of grace.

No sir! Grace is NOT unmerited. There is no scripture which unambiguously asserts this. It is salvation that is unmerited.

It has come to be a common definition in Christian circles - and not just in the Free Grace movement.

It has "come" to be a common definition in Christian circles due to the the corrupt influence of FGT on modern Christianity.

 

[Jack Terrence]

I directly challenge you to provide proof for your claim here. God's grace is extended to everyone. Regardless of faith. Did Jesus require any of those He healed to have faith? No.

So you equate healing with salvation now and imply that one may be saved without faith?

Eph 2:8 says we are saved by grace through faith.

It does NOT say that grace comes through faith. And the grammar allows for faith to be the antecedent of the clause "THIS is not from yourselves."

 

[Jack Terrence]

Delete duplicate

 

[GillDouglas]

Not really. Most everyone here is against the words of Jesus that tell us to "sin no more unless a worse thing come upon you." They are saying he didn't really mean that. Most here are also against the words of Jesus that say, "be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect", too. The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless. Yet, again, folks here would rather ignore that truth and define the word "perfect" some other way. For most I have talked with here do not believe in Sinless Perfectionism or that they can stop sinning. Some here have even said it was a heresy. But that is what it means to live holy. Living holy means one is not sinning but they are living holy or righteous.

One who does evil cannot claim they are living holy. It defies all logic. Think about it.
Also, folks here have been saying they can die in unrepentant sin and still make it into Heaven, too. Which again, goes against God's goodness or morality.

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Why would the writers of the Bible warn the saved of how they should live if they're incapable of sinning?

Your bizarre and false theology defies logic. You claim that the saved, like yourself, can not sin because they are fully sanctified, being holy like God. Then you say that the saved can lose their salvation. How does that work?

All are sinners, the saved and the damned. Even you! The saved have a different nature than the damned, driven to do spiritual good by the Holy Spirit. The saved yet live here in sin filled flesh and are tempted by this world. The saved may fall and stumble yet seek God for forgiveness. Only the damned live and die in unrepentant sin, and they will not make it into Heaven.

 

[Marvin Knox]

No sir! Grace is NOT unmerited. There is no scripture which unambiguously asserts this. It is salvation that is unmerited..

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Clearly it says that salvation is a gift of God unmerited by man. But one can only saved by grace.

Therefore the grace to be saved is also unmerited by man.

Grace, in this instance, is unmerited favor which leads to salvation.

If you, perchance, choose to say that "faith" is the gift of God - then faith comes by grace and it amounts to the same thing.

I will agree with you that grace as presented in the scriptures is often (it seems to me even most) presented as something that is given because of merit.

But it is also presented as something unmerited.

If you were only charging that many have come to state that grace is always unmerited and that that is wrong - then I would agree with you in that.

But if you are saying that all grace is always merited -- I must disagree with you in much the same way I would disagree with those who say that grace is always unmerited..

You might want to stand against Free Grace theology in some areas for some reason. But you logic here is found wanting.

I am not of the same flavor as FreeGrace2 in many areas. But I join with him is asking you to tell us exactly what your view of his beliefs is.

It would be easier to follow exactly what your beef is if you would tell us that right up front as he asked you to.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason think about what you believe about this verse and believers committing sins and then will go to hell.
Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

For if some christian saved believer sins, there is no longer a sacrifice for sins, but only wrath, how could someone repent and be forgiven if there is no longer a sacrifice for sin for them?
Christ is only sacrificed one time, not again and again for our sins. Your logic would lead to being forgiven a possibility only one time and forever after a judgement of wrath and hell.

Your argument is against what Hebrews 10:26 clearly says at face value. This is obvious if you were to keep reading after verse 26. It compares of how one would be punished in the breaking the Old with the New.

"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? " (Hebrews 10:28-29).

As for Hebrews 10:14: Again, read this passage from the perspective of the saint who has lived a holy life (i.e. he was sanctified). Meaning, God forever perfects those saints who are truly partaken of the Sanctification process of the Spirit (Which is to live holy by the power of God and His Word) over their entire lives. The passage is talking past tense of the believer who has lived holy until the point of death. To be sanctified does not mean one can continue in sin with thinking they are saved. That type of belief runs contrary to holiness or the Sanctification process.

Hebrews 10:26 talks about one being sanctified initially but they have trodden under foot the Son of God by their evil or willfully sinful actions. For if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

But.... if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9) (Which is in context to obeying God's Commandments - 1 John 2:3-4, or walking in the light - 1 John 1:7). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Why would the writers of the Bible warn the saved of how they should live if they're incapable of sinning?

The same reason one warns an alcoholic to stop drinking themselves into oblivion. That does not mean alcoholics cannot stop drinking themselves to death. In fact, the Bible tells the believer that they can stop sinning. If nobody could ever stop sinning: Then Jesus would have never said to: "sin no more." to the woman caught in the act of adultery; Nor would Jesus say, "sin no more, unless a worse thing come upon thee" to the man that He healed.

In fact, 1 Peter 4:1 says, they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased (stopped) from sin. Galatians 5:24 says, they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. David said he hid His Word (i.e. God's Word) in his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord (Psalm 119:11).

Your bizarre and false theology defies logic. You claim that the saved, like yourself, can not sin because they are fully sanctified, being holy like God. Then you say that the saved can lose their salvation. How does that work?

Actually, your belief defies all logic, dear sir. Not only do we NOT find anywhere in the Bible where Jesus and the apostles taught a sin and still be saved doctrine, but you will never be able to illustrate your belief by way of a real world example (i.e. parable). I say this because Jesus used real world examples (parables) to illustrate spiritual truth. For even the Canaanite woman had expounded upon one of Christ's sayings with a parable (0r real world example) of her own (And the Lord accepted it).

So far, over the years I have discussed with others who hold to your belief, they have never been able to make a real world example to defend the goodness behind it. Also, many (and not all) who also hold to your belief have been really nasty towards me with their words, too. This lets me know that they are not believing and acting in accordance with God's Word.

All are sinners, the saved and the damned. Even you! The saved have a different nature than the damned, driven to do spiritual good by the Holy Spirit. The saved yet live here in sin filled flesh and are tempted by this world. The saved may fall and stumble yet seek God for forgiveness. .

Actually, the Bible says he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8); And he that does righteousness is born of Him (1 John 2:29).

Only the damned live and die in unrepentant sin, and they will not make it into Heaven

Do you believe confessing and forsaking sin is a requirement for receiving mercy?
Are you telling me you believe Proverbs 28:13 in what it says plainly at face value?


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[GillDouglas]

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Clearly it says that salvation is a gift of God unmerited by man. But one can only saved by grace.

Therefore the grace to be saved is also unmerited by man.

Grace, in this instance, is unmerited favor which leads to salvation.

If you, perchance, choose to say that "faith" is the gift of God - then faith comes by grace and it amounts to the same thing.

I will agree with you that grace as presented in the scriptures is often (it seems to me even most) presented as something that is given because of merit.

But it is also presented in as something unmerited.

If you were only charging that many have come to state that grace is always unmerited and that that is wrong - then I would agree with you in that.

But if you are saying that all grace is always merited -- I must disagree with you in much the same way I would disagree with those who say that grace is always unmerited..

You might want to stand against Free Grace theology in some areas for some reason. But you logic here is found wanting.

I am not of the same flavor as FreeGrace2 in many areas. But I join with him is asking you to tells us exactly what your view of his beliefs is.

It would be easier to follow exactly what your beef is if you would tell us that right up front as he asked you to.

No sir! Grace is NOT unmerited. There is no scripture which unambiguously asserts this. It is salvation that is unmerited.

It has "come" to be a common definition in Christian circles due to the the corrupt influence of FGT on modern Christianity.

There are two types of grace we should consider for this argument. Saving grace and common grace. If all are born sinners, none are worthy of special consideration in regards to saving grace. It is God Himself, in His infinite wisdom and judgement, who is the authority over His saving grace. We must be careful when we consider those who have benefited from this type of grace. It is a gift not given as a result of our faith but as undeserved benefit of His love. Common grace is given to all men, a method in which He uses to limit the power of sin on men. All are unworthy, yet receive such grace earned by just being a sinner. Again, God is the authority and it is His responsibility to share His gifts according to His will all for His glory.

 

[sdowney717]

A quick google for the heresy of sinless perfectionism as Jason teaches brought this one
http://fundamentalbaptistchristian.blogspot.com/2011/11/heresy-of-sinless-perfection.html
And this one discusses how sinful those who believe they are sinless are, they are an affront, an offense to Christ.
http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/housechu/perfectioncult.htm
This verse ought to be enough refutation, except of course it will be 'explained' by them.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[GillDouglas]

A quick google for the heresy of sinless perfectionism as Jason teaches brought this one
http://fundamentalbaptistchristian.blogspot.com/2011/11/heresy-of-sinless-perfection.html
And this one discusses how sinful those who believe they are sinless are, they are an affront, an offense to Christ.
http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/housechu/perfectioncult.htm
This verse ought to be enough refutation, except of course it will be 'explained' by them.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

On a scale between Nominal Christian and Fanatic Christian, this type leans toward Fanatic.

 

[sdowney717]

On a scale between Nominal Christian and Fanatic Christian, this type leans toward Fanatic.

Yes, quite a few various wide ranging christian groups consider it very bad doctrine.
I have found many who are heavily indoctrinated into a doctrinal position to be very fanatic about that position. I used to have long discussions with a Church of Christ teacher at work and he was extremely sectarian, only his church had the truth type of things.. and other churches deceived and hell bound.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No sir! Grace is NOT unmerited. There is no scripture which unambiguously asserts this. It is salvation that is unmerited.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men

The Bible says that God's grace has appeared…to all men. Marvin is correct.

It has "come" to be a common definition in Christian circles due to the the corrupt influence of FGT on modern Christianity.

I've already shown your view of FGT to be incorrect.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"I directly challenge you to provide proof for your claim here. God's grace is extended to everyone. Regardless of faith. Did Jesus require any of those He healed to have faith? No."

So you equate healing with salvation now and imply that one may be saved without faith?

Where ever would anyone come to such a conclusion from what I said?? I've implied no such nonsense. Titus 2:11 tells us that God's grace has appeared to all men. Not "some men", or "only the elect", or any other such twisting.

My question stands, which I see you've ignored (dodged). If He required faith, please prove it from Scripture.

And I HAVEN'T equated healing with salvation. That is ludicrous.

Jesus healed by grace, as well as saves by grace. That doesn't equate the 2 in any way. iow, all of what God does for mankind is by grace.

It does NOT say that grace comes through faith.

I never said that grace comes through faith either.

Let's see what the Bible does say:
Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; NASB
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, ESV
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift ofGod NIV

We are saved through faith, BY GRACE.

 

[Jack Terrence]

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Clearly it says that salvation is a gift of God unmerited by man. But one can only saved by grace.

Therefore the grace to be saved is also unmerited by man.

Grace, in this instance, is unmerited favor which leads to salvation.

Grace in this instance is NOT unmerited favor, but is the divine INFLUENCE in the heart. See verse 5. We were saved by something God done TO us, a work of God IN us. Strong's defines grace as "the divine influence in the heart AND its reflection in the life."

Paul said that God's grace made them alive (by influencing the heart), and that they no longer walked as other gentiles walked (the reflection of grace in the life). Grace NECESSARILY includes the response of the heart under its influence. Therefore, grace CANNOT be defined as something that is unmerited.

Peter said that the "TRUE grace in which we stand" is that which efectually perfects and strengthens and settles us. 1 Peter 5:5-12. It is NOT some cheap "unmerited favor" that Peter calls "TRUE grace."