Logical Problems with Calvinism

[GillDouglas]

Well, first, everyone will be destroyed both body and soul in Gehenna (the Lake of FIre) as Jesus said (See Matthew 10:28). Second, God punishes everyone according to their sins. Those who were treated unfairly as sinners will know that those who did bad towards them will face the punishment of their crimes fairly by God if they did not repent.
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Those who judge their brother and sisters struggling with sin will surely reap what they sow.

 

[GillDouglas]

Actually, I have Jesus Christ in my life and He leads me into paths of righteousness for his name sake. But in your belief system, that is not all that important to walk as He walked because you teach that a believer does not need to worry about sin so as to remain in good standing with the Lord. In fact, you cannot walk as He walked because you do not believe a believer can stop sinning. This means, that those who hear your messsage will have a cavalier attitude towards sin and thereby remain in their sins like when they were an unbeliever. So living holy is not really all that important in this belief. It is rather amazing you do not see it. There are tons of warnings in the Bible to the believer about how we cannot sin and that we must live righteously.
....

You know very little of the walk of a true Christian. We all strive to walk as He did, to become an example of righteousness and bring hope to our fellow man. You're right to say that we cannot walk as He walked, because it is impossible. We are not perfect, like He is. We are not fully righteous and holy, as He is. We are not God, as He is. However, that does not stop us from trying and relying on Him to guide us and keep us on the path through prayer and study. We may experience trials of sin many times in our walk with Christ, so that we always look to Him, the example of perfection, to aid us through our struggles. The trials humble us so that we never become so arrogant that we believe we can do it on our own.

The trails that we go through do benefit us in sanctifying us further all the while glorifying God whom we have put our hope. Each day we pick up our Cross and become more and more like Christ, it is what keeps us reliant on Him. It is what keeps us focused on knowing Him better and making Him known to others. In fact, another reason we experience these trails of sin is so that we become sympathetic to our fellow man, those who are both believers and unbelievers. If we become, as you say, perfect and sinless then we are at risk to become arrogant and think ourselves better than our fellow man, being little to no benefit to them. Because we are still sinners, we understand that the struggle is hard and because we need Christ just as much as they do (believers and unbelievers) we benefit each other; By us bringing them to God, whom they desperately need and they reminding us how we once were and how desperately we still need Him.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You do not know what they believe then. They have admitted to believing in a sin and still be saved doctrine.

So no. I am not misrepresenting them.


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Jesus says He forgives all sin. So who that is saved has a sin problem?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Those who judge their brother and sisters struggling with sin will surely reap what they sow.

That's a good point.

It's a whole lot easier to sit on the side of judgment than of love and helping your fellow man.

 

[Marvin Knox]

But man carried out that sin and injustice and not God. Also, God did not decree sin or injustice to take place, either. ...........................In other words, just because God was able to use man's sinful actions that placed Christ on the cross does not mean God is in agreement or in league with their sinful or wrong actions. God is holy and is without sin (and separate from what man does that is sinful).

Yes, it does change the wording "injustice." An injustice is when there is no justice whatsoever going to take place for the crime that was committed. But the Lord says vengeance is mine, I will repay says the Lord. So justice will be served for every and all crimes; And man and not God is the one who does sin or things that breaks God's justice. God does not declare man to sin. That would be wrong to say that. God is holy and good and only wants man to do that which is righteous and good. However, seeing God knows the future, the Lord can use man's sin or the breaking of his laws to his advantage for the greater good. This does not mean God is on the side of immorality or that God is against morality in any way....

Nonsense!

Unlike you, I know the meaning of the word injustice.

Simply stating again and again the well known fact that God had a perfect reason for allowing injustice doesn't change the fact that He allowed it to happen.

Simply saying the well known fact that God will judge the actions of men doesn't change the fact that He allowed injustice to happen.

You said that God doesn't allow injustice in this world. I refuted what you said.

You were wrong. Admit it and let's move on.

Also, God did not decree sin or injustice to take place, either..............

See, this is where you are wrong, my friend. God does plan or predestine evil to take place. God can predict future events that involve the sinful actions of men. But God no more decrees, commands, declares predestines that men must sin so as to accomplish His plan or good will. That would be wrong to say that.

No. This is a contradiction in terms. For example: If John was a king and he decrees that sin must take place, then John the king will be partially responsible for that decree of sin that he declared to take place. See where I am coming from?

I do see where you are coming from. You are trying to fully understand the thoughts of the creator of all things who's thoughts are inscrutable.

God has predestined everything that happens in His creation. There is not a chance that what He knew before time will take place will not take place.

Since nothing can take place until He acts in such a way that will allow those things to happen - He is, by those very actions, destining those things to happen. Since there was no one there but Him when He knew it and chose to act - He is the one who predestined whatever happens to happen. This isn't difficult logic nor should it be a difficult doctrine for anyone who reads and believes what the scripture teach to understand. (We are talking about the God of the Bible aren't we?).

By the way "John" is not the eternally existent, omniscient, sovereign God of all creation.

Neither are the predestination of all things that happen in God's creation and the free will of man contradictory.

I am not in disagreement that God's Word comes to pass. This is prophecy and not God declaring or decreeing sin to take place which would be against God's holy and good will...

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:8-11

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Colossians 1:15-17

You seem to be woefully ignorant of the nature of God and His providential control over His entire creation.

Either that or you are purposefully choosing to ignore the facts stated clearly in scripture in order to prove your pet doctrines.

You just said just now that you believe a saint can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved. Which is saying that one can sin and still be saved. So I do not see how you can disagree with my saying that I am accusing you and others falsely here....

You have gone beyond merely stating again what people say they believe.

You are drawing conclusions concerning what those beliefs must also lead to.

Then you are stating those conclusions that you came to as representative of what others believe.

That's wrong.

But there is no teaching in God's Word about just believing in the finished work of Christ whereby I can ignore God's goodness and morality in regards to soteriology. .................To say that one can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved goes against Godliness.

Here you go again with your conclusions being presented as facts.

You are saying that people believe things that they have not, themselves, said that they believe.

No one said that goodness and morality do not play a part in salvation.

They have said that they do not play a part in the ultimate state of a person regarding Heaven and Hell.

Everyone here believes that all sin will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ and that the saints will suffer loss because of unrepentant sin in their lives.

You say that those positions go against Godliness. You are wrong. To say otherwise goes against what the scriptures clearly teach.

And here we go with the insults. You do realize that such a thing is not of God, right?................
And more insults to add. Please stick with Scripture and do not make it personal. .

Someone teaching another gospel (which is not good news at all) and causing people to stumble in their doctrine is personal to me as a member of the Body of Christ.

We are told to rebuke such a one. I am rebuking you here and now.

Perhaps you'd prefer it if I just went ahead and called you a "viper"?

P.S.

Not all of your "foes" here agree on doctrine. In fact there are rather stark differences in our doctrines.

But your so called "gospel" is so egregious that you have been successful where no one else has.

Congratulations you have managed to unite Calvinists, Arminians, Catholics, Anglicans and Free Grace against you and your insidious teaching.

Your teaching on holiness goes well beyond simply teaching that Christians should strive to be holy.

Your teaching has moved into the area of what is clearly false doctrine and the preaching of another gospel than the one we received from God.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Says you. Grace began in the Bible at Gen 1:1. And continues throughout all of eternity.

I didn't say that grace began in the mid 20th century I said that YOUR VIEW of grace had its origin in the mid 20th century. Geez man! Pay attention.

Free grace theology is a return to sound, biblically based theology.

No way!

What does it claim that has not been supported by Scripture? (this is a challenge)

Your definition of grace is NOT supported by scripture

 

[ToBeLoved]

You know very little of the walk of a true Christian. We all strive to walk as He did, to become an example of righteousness and bring hope to our fellow man. You're right to say that we cannot walk as He walked, because it is impossible. We are not perfect, like He is. We are not fully righteous and holy, as He is. We are not God, as He is. However, that does not stop us from trying and relying on Him to guide us and keep us on the path through prayer and study. We may experience trials of sin many times in our walk with Christ, so that we always look to Him, the example of perfection, to aid us through our struggles. The trials humble us so that we never become so arrogant that we believe we can do it on our own.

The trails that we go through do benefit us in sanctifying us further all the while glorifying God whom we have put our hope. Each day we pick up our Cross and become more and more like Christ, it is what keeps us reliant on Him. It is what keeps us focused on knowing Him better and making Him known to others. In fact, another reason we experience these trails of sin is so that we become sympathetic to our fellow man, those who are both believers and unbelievers. If we become, as you say, perfect and sinless then we are at risk to become arrogant and think ourselves better than our fellow man, being little to no benefit to them. Because we are still sinners, we understand that the struggle is hard and because we need Christ just as much as they do (believers and unbelievers) we benefit each other; By us bringing them to God, whom they desperately need and they reminding us how we once were and how desperately we still need Him.

PREACH Brother!

God is our example. We seek to be as our Father is.

Jason does not believe that anyone who is saved is motivated not to sin because they love God. He see's the only motivation not to sin is the fear of loosing salvation.

He does not understand the first and most important commandment and how we can be secure in our salvation and still not be raging sinners out on the sin train partying all night.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I didn't say that grace began in the mid 20th century I said that YOUR VIEW of grace had its origin in the mid 20th century. Geez man! Pay attention.

No way!

Your definition of grace is NOT supported by scripture

Umm....

Explain how his view of grace is NOT supported by scripture.

How about using scripture to explain that to us while your at it?

 

[GillDouglas]

Not all of your "foes" here agree on doctrine. In fact there are rather stark differences in our doctrines.
But your so called "gospel" is so egregious that you have been successful where no one else has.
Congratulations you have managed to unite Calvinists, Arminians, Catholics, Anglicans and Free Grace against you and your insidious teaching.
Your teaching on holiness goes well beyond simply teaching that Christians should strive to be holy.
Your teaching has moved into the area of what is clearly false doctrine and the preaching of another gospel than the one we received from God.

Amen!

 

[Jack Terrence]

Umm....

Explain how his view of grace is NOT supported by scripture.

How about using scripture to explain that to us while your at it?

Free Grace theology erroneously teaches that grace is acquired through faith when the scripture asserts just the opposite. Faith is acquired through grace.

"He helped them much who through grace had believed" Acts 18:27 NIV

The irony of Free Grace theology is that it defines grace simply as "unmerited favor." Then its disciples say that it is acquired through faith. Duh! If grace is acquired through faith then it is NOT unmerited.

I would advise you not to follow a scheme of soterological interpretation that is not even 75 years old and has no scriptural merit. Though salvation definitely is unmerited the word grace itself does NOT mean "unmerited favor." This definition is new with FGT. Neither is grace acquired through faith.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Free Grace theology erroneously teaches that grace is acquired through faith when the scripture asserts just the opposite. Faith is acquired through grace.

"He helped them much who through grace had believed" Acts 18:27 NIV

The irony of Free Grace theology is that it defines grace simply as "unmerited favor." Then its disciples say that it is acquired through faith. Duh! If grace is acquired through faith then it is NOT unmerited.

I would advise you not to follow a scheme of soterological interpretation that is not even 75 years old and has no scriptural merit. Though salvation definitely is unmerited the word grace itself does NOT mean "unmerited favor." This definition is new with FGT. Neither is grace acquired through faith.

I agree with you that faith is acquired through grace and not the other way around.

I would point out, however, that unmerited favor is a perfectly legitimate definition of grace. It has come to be a common definition in Christian circles - and not just in the Free Grace movement.

That definition is also used by the Webster's, Cambridge, and Oxford dictionaries as well as various theological dictionaries.

I'm not meaning to be argumentative here though - because I am generally in your camp on this one.

I would also point out that grace, in the scriptures, is sometimes unmerited favor and sometimes it is merited favor depending on the circumstances.

Obviously (to us at least) salvation in the basic sense is by grace and is unmerited by men.

But the scriptures talk also of God giving grace to the humble and further grace being given to some based on their stewardship of various things that have been entrusted to them.

We are also told that we can ask for grace in certain areas and receive it and that if we do not or if we do not have faith for it - the hoped for grace will not be forthcoming.

 

[Job8]

The irony of Free Grace theology is that it defines grace simply as "unmerited favor." Then its disciples say that it is acquired through faith. Duh! If grace is acquired through faith then it is NOT unmerited.

Not sure who these "disciples" are but nowhere in Scripture are we told that grace is "acquired" through faith. Grace flows from God as (a) unmerited favor, (b) mercy, (c) great love, (d) kindness, (e) undeserved and eternal spiritual blessings. So there is never any question of "acquiring" grace because of any merit. However, when a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption, and receives Him as Lord and Savior, he is justified by God's grace because he has exercised faith in Christ. That is the outcome of believing (Eph 2:8,9).

 

[EmSw]

Free Grace theology erroneously teaches that grace is acquired through faith when the scripture asserts just the opposite. Faith is acquired through grace.

"He helped them much who through grace had believed" Acts 18:27 NIV

The irony of Free Grace theology is that it defines grace simply as "unmerited favor." Then its disciples say that it is acquired through faith. Duh! If grace is acquired through faith then it is NOT unmerited.

I would advise you not to follow a scheme of soterological interpretation that is not even 75 years old and has no scriptural merit. Though salvation definitely is unmerited the word grace itself does NOT mean "unmerited favor." This definition is new with FGT. Neither is grace acquired through faith.

Why not choose what the Bible says? It says grace is given (acquired) through man humbling himself.

 

[EmSw]

I agree with you that faith is acquired through grace and not the other way around.

I would point out, however, that unmerited favor is a perfectly legitimate definition of grace. It has come to be a common definition in Christian circles - and not just in the Free Grace movement.

That definition is also used by the Webster's, Cambridge, and Oxford dictionaries as well as various theological dictionaries.

I'm not meaning to be argumentative here though - because I am generally in your camp on this one.

I would also point out that grace, in the scriptures, is sometimes unmerited favor and sometimes it is merited favor depending on the circumstances.

Obviously (to us at least) salvation in the basic sense is by grace and is unmerited by men.

But the scriptures talk also of God giving grace to the humble and further grace being given to some based on their stewardship of various things that have been entrusted to them.

We are also told that we can ask for grace in certain areas and receive it and that if we do not or if we do not have faith for it - the hoped for grace will not be forthcoming.

Marvin, Marvin, now you are using a dictionary to define your words? You definitely have two sides to you.

 

[nobdysfool]

Yes, Paul says we are to be slaves to righteousness and not slaves to sin. But again, your position is against the necessity of the believer living a holy life.

I never said any such thing as being against the believer living a holy life. where do you get such filthy lies from? Certainly not from what I said, which you have not even addressed. but that seems to be your method, especially when you cannot answer without somehow undermining your own false doctrine.

So this leads me to conclude you believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine. Living in sin (with thinking you are saved) is the only alternative to God's people living holy and upright so as to be in good standing with God. It's either one or the other.
....

Will you actually deal with what i said? You're avoiding it. You'd rather pass judgment on me (falsely) than actually address what i said, point by point. You don't because you can't, and that is plain for all to see.

 

[nobdysfool]

Actually, I have Jesus Christ in my life and He leads me into paths of righteousness for his name sake. But in your belief system, that is not all that important to walk as He walked because you teach that a believer does not need to worry about sin so as to remain in good standing with the Lord. In fact, you cannot walk as He walked because you do not believe a believer can stop sinning. This means, that those who hear your messsage will have a cavalier attitude towards sin and thereby remain in their sins like when they were an unbeliever. So living holy is not really all that important in this belief. It is rather amazing you do not see it. There are tons of warnings in the Bible to the believer about how we cannot sin and that we must live righteously.
....

Jason, that is so clearly a pack of lies you are telling about those who oppose you. You are lying, claiming to know things that you have no possible way of knowing, and passing judgment on fellow believers, without proof, and without cause. You should be ashamed of yourself, and the grievous sins you are committing even now. You are making false accusations against us, and in reality taking the Devil's part, and doing his work for him. The Devil is the accuser of the brethren, but you must be giving him a holiday, because you're the one accusing us falsely here.

You need to repent and apologize to us all in the forum for the sinful way you have falsely accused us. I mean it. You are so far out of line it isn't even funny.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, that is so clearly a pack of lies you are telling about those who oppose you. You are lying, claiming to know things that you have no possible way of knowing, and passing judgment on fellow believers, without proof, and without cause. You should be ashamed of yourself, and the grievous sins you are committing even now. You are making false accusations against us, and in reality taking the Devil's part, and doing his work for him. The Devil is the accuser of the brethren, but you must be giving him a holiday, because you're the one accusing us falsely here.

You need to repent and apologize to us all in the forum for the sinful way you have falsely accused us. I mean it. You are so far out of line it isn't even funny.

Not really. Most everyone here is against the words of Jesus that tell us to "sin no more unless a worse thing come upon you." They are saying he didn't really mean that. Most here are also against the words of Jesus that say, "be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect", too. The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless. Yet, again, folks here would rather ignore that truth and define the word "perfect" some other way. For most I have talked with here do not believe in Sinless Perfectionism or that they can stop sinning. Some here have even said it was a heresy. But that is what it means to live holy. Living holy means one is not sinning but they are living holy or righteous.

One who does evil cannot claim they are living holy. It defies all logic. Think about it.
Also, folks here have been saying they can die in unrepentant sin and still make it into Heaven, too. Which again, goes against God's goodness or morality.

....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Free Grace theology erroneously teaches that grace is acquired through faith when the scripture asserts just the opposite. Faith is acquired through grace.

"He helped them much who through grace had believed" Acts 18:27 NIV

The irony of Free Grace theology is that it defines grace simply as "unmerited favor." Then its disciples say that it is acquired through faith. Duh! If grace is acquired through faith then it is NOT unmerited.

I would advise you not to follow a scheme of soterological interpretation that is not even 75 years old and has no scriptural merit. Though salvation definitely is unmerited the word grace itself does NOT mean "unmerited favor." This definition is new with FGT. Neither is grace acquired through faith.

"Apollos decided to go into Achaia. The Christian brothers wrote to the disciples there and asked them to receive him. When he reached Achaia, he helped very much those who believed. They believed because God was kind to them." (Acts 18:27) (World Wide English).

"Apollos decided to travel through Achaia. So the Lord’s followers wrote letters, encouraging the followers there to welcome him. After Apollos arrived in Achaia, he was a great help to everyone who had put their faith in the Lord Jesus because of God’s kindness." (Acts 18:27) (Contemporary English Bible).

"Apollos wanted to go to Achaia. So the believers in Ephesus helped him. They wrote a letter to the Lord’s followers in Achaia and asked them to accept Apollos. When he arrived there, he was a great help to those who had believed in Jesus because of God’s grace." (Acts 18:27) (Easy to Read Version).

The above translations can be read here:

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Acts 18:27


....

 

[sdowney717]

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

And how are we sanctified?

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

Romans 15:16
that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That's a good point.

It's a whole lot easier to sit on the side of judgment than of love and helping your fellow man.

What makes you assume that I am not helping fellow mankind. Also, Scripture says we can judge righteously and correct others by God's Word.


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