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Logical Problems with Calvinism

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ToBeLoved

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I agree with you that faith is acquired through grace and not the other way around.
How in the world is faith acquired through grace?

Grace is that Christ died for all of us to be reconciled back to God and asks for nothing but our faith in Him.

Grace is the unmerited favor that Christ died for us while we were without belief.

How is that gift of salvation that we do not deserve, faith?

Pls explain?
 
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Marvin Knox

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How in the world is faith acquired through grace?

Grace is that Christ died for all of us to be reconciled back to God and asks for nothing but our faith in Him.

Grace is the unmerited favor that Christ died for us while we were without belief.

How is that gift of salvation that we do not deserve, faith?

Pls explain?

Faith is acquired by hearing the Word of God preached to us.

“Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ.” Romans 10:17

We hear the Word, respond to the Word and that Word brings us saving faith.

Through that faith we are born again and we are justified before God.

Titus 2:11 tells us that “the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.”

That grace is the living and abiding Word of God – the Son of God incarnate – and the good news that accompanies His work on our behalf (the gospel that we heard that resulted in faith).

"The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ." John 1:14-17

Saving faith can only come where grace has first appeared.

Until grace appears there is nothing to have faith in.

Faith does not come first.

Grace comes first.

Faith is acquired through grace and not the other way around.

We are "saved" through faith. But we receive faith through grace.

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

By the way – and perhaps a little ironically - we also receive life changing grace through faith as well as saving faith through grace.

That is because “grace” means favor and blessing and we receive favor and blessings by faith.

“You do not have because you do not ask.” James 4:2

“Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.” Hebrews 11:6
 
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Jack Terrence

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I said this:
"Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men
All NATIONS of men and not every individual. Your application of this statement is intellectual suicide and you know it. Paul said that the gospel was preached to "EVERY creature under heaven" Colossians 1:23. After saying this he asked for prayer that God would open a door for him to preach the word, 4:3. No one in his right mind takes Paul to mean that the gospel had been preached to every individual man. And why would Paul after saying that ask for prayer that God would open a door for him to preach it if every individual had heard it?

Sound minds realize that the terms " all men" and "every creature" in biblical times simply meant "all NATIONS of men" and not Jews only.

So the grace of God has brought salvation to all NATIONS of men.

On Mars Hill Paul said that God has given "all men" the assurance that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. If we apply this statement the way you apply other "all men" statements we must conclude that no individual denies the resurrection of Christ. I have told you these things before but you stubbornly continue to impose your Western definitions on the ancient scriptures. This is why I cannot continue with you very long because I would lose control and get myself permanently banned. I have no patience with those who refuse to see.
 
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nobdysfool

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Do you believe in Sinless Perfectionism?

No, and the bible does not teach it.

Do you believe that a believer can stop sinning (Which is Sinless Perfectionism)?

A believer is (or should be ) always striving to be more like Christ. That's where God's Grace comes in, and covers where we still fall short.

So far, I have not met an OSAS proponent who believes in Sinless Perfectionism.

Because we live in the real world, and struggle daily with sin.
We have no delusions about the fight against sin, and look forward to the Day when we will no longer be subject to it.

Also, people have made the claim that they can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved here.
Do you believe that you can die in unrepentant sin and still be saved?

Not falling into that trap, because you have a different idea of what that means. There could be sins in anyone's life that they are not even aware of to be sins.
Under your view, even those sins could keep a person from salvation.

Do you believe 1 John 1:8 is saying you will always have some kind of sin in your life?

What 1 John 1:8 says is that if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. That tells me that The Sinless Perfection crowd (which you obviously are one of) are deceiving themselves, because to claim that they have no sin is itself a sin.

If so, then we must conclude you are saved despite having this sin.

I am saved by faith in the risen Christ, and cleansed by His Shed Blood. My sins have already been dealt with on Calvary, and I am joined to Christ and in Him with regard to the law, to sin, and to any other thing against me.

Unless of course you believe confession of sin is necessary for salvation.

1 John 1:9
 
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No, and the bible does not teach it.

Well, actually the Bible does clearly teach Sinless Perfectionism.

1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin.

Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

Romans 6:14 says sin shall not have dominion over you.

In Psalm 119:11, David says he hides His Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the LORD.

Jesus says to the disciples to pray so as not to be led into temptation (Matthew 26:41). Okay, so if you are to pray so as not to be led into temptation, then how can you sin if you are led away from temptation to sin by GOD?

Peter identifies the false prophets as having eyes full adultery and who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14).

Ephesians 4:17-27 says, "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:Neither give place to the devil."

How can you put off the former conversation of the old man if you believe that you can never do so in this life as a believer? How can you put away lying? Why even bother to be ye angry and sin not if you are just going to do so anyways? One would think God was playing a cruel joke on you in telling you not to sin and yet you couldn't really stop sinning.

Remember, the Scriptures say God places a way of escape for us in times of temptation.

Jesus says be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). The Heavenly Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless. If Jesus told you to be perfect (Which would include not sinning), then Jesus would be lying or tricking you into believing that you could be perfect (When in reality you could not be perfect like the Heavenly Father).

What did Joseph do when he was confronted with sexual temptation? Did he give in? Or did Joseph flee from such temptation? Do you think you can do what Joseph did?

There are more verses, but hopefully this should suffice.

A believer is (or should be ) always striving to be more like Christ.

No man can serve two masters. For he will hate the one and love the other (Matthew 6:24). For a double minded man is unstable in all his ways (James 1:8). Paul says we used to be sinners, but we are not that way anymore (Ephesians 2:2-3) (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) (Colossians 3:6-7).

That's where God's Grace comes in, and covers where we still fall short.

The Bible warns of those who turn the grace of God into a doctrine of immorality.

"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 1:4) (New International Version)​

Because we live in the real world, and struggle daily with sin.
We have no delusions about the fight against sin, and look forward to the Day when we will no longer be subject to it.

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:23-26).​

Not falling into that trap, because you have a different idea of what that means. There could be sins in anyone's life that they are not even aware of to be sins. Under your view, even those sins could keep a person from salvation.

Well, I am talking about sins that lead unto death (i.e. spiritual death). For 1 John 5:16-18 talks about sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death. I believe the sins that lead unto death are sins such as lying, murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, and drunkenness, etc. which will lead to the Second Death, i.e. the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8) (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) (Ephesians 5:5-6) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Colossians 3:5-10) (Romans 1:28-32).

I believe sins that do not lead unto death can be hidden or secret faults like Psalm 19:12 mentions. I believe these types of sins can be going over the speed limit a little (without realizing it), or disobeying the traffic laws to get your wife to the hospital, etc.; or not doing something "extra good" at your job for the Lord that you know you could have done, but you chose not to do it (Whereby you did only what was required instead). However, a biblical example of a sin that would not lead unto death is disobeying the command to be baptized. For Peter says that baptism is not for the putting away of the flesh (i.e. sin) (1 Peter 3:21).

Oh, and just in case you are wondering, I have been baptized.

What 1 John 1:8 says is that if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. That tells me that The Sinless Perfection crowd (which you obviously are one of) are deceiving themselves, because to claim that they have no sin is itself a sin.

No. We know 1 John 1:8 is addressing the gnostic or Antinomian who claims sin does not exist for them on a spiritual level. Today, this would be anyone claiming that they have no sin debt anymore because all their sin was paid for past, present, and future. So when they sin, it does not exist for them. But 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. This is also in context to 1 John 2:3-6 that says,

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6).​

I am saved by faith in the risen Christ, and cleansed by His Shed Blood. My sins have already been dealt with on Calvary, and I am joined to Christ and in Him with regard to the law, to sin, and to any other thing against me.

James says,

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:17-24).​

1 John 1:9

So you do believe confession of sin is necessary for salvation? If you do, that is a beginning to a very good step in understanding how a believer accesses God's grace, my friend. For the Scriptures say, he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.


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Since this is one of your favorite passages "in refuting OSAS or in the thinking that one can sin and still be saved" --- please show us where it refutes OSAS or even the thinking that one can sin and still be saved.

Since this particular passage is one of your all time favorites, explaining or attempting to explain it will go a long way toward showing everyone your biggest and best proof or your biggest and best lack of logic.

Surely your own favorite passage should really make or break your case for us.

I wait with bated breath for you to give it your best shot.

I'm pretty sure I wont be alone.

In 2 Timothy 3:1-9 it says there are those who have a FORM of Godliness but they deny the power thereof. In 2 Timothy 2:19 it says, let everyone that names the name of Christ to depart from iniquity. This is the context of of 2 Timothy 3:1-9. This same believer Paul warns us about is also the one mentioned in the book of Jude, too. For this type of believer has slipped among the church unaware in Jude and turning the grace of our God into a doctrine of immorality or lasciviousness (Jude 1:4).

How do these believers who slipped in unawares deny the power thereof? By denying Him in works.

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

Man directed works or God directed works?

God directed works that the Lord does thru the believer (of course). So the believer cannot take glory for himself or seek any kind of recognition.


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FreeGrace2

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All NATIONS of men and not every individual.
Is that really what Titus 2:11 actually says? No. It says "pas". That means all. Not "some from all nations", as you're trying to spin it.

Your application of this statement is intellectual suicide and you know it. Paul said that the gospel was preached to "EVERY creature under heaven" Colossians 1:23. After saying this he asked for prayer that God would open a door for him to preach the word, 4:3. No one in his right mind takes Paul to mean that the gospel had been preached to every individual man. And why would Paul after saying that ask for prayer that God would open a door for him to preach it if every individual had heard it?
Every use of "all" must be understood from its OWN CONTEXT. Not other cherry picked verses.

So, show me ONLY from Titus where Paul had "all nations of men" in mind.

Sound minds realize that the terms " all men" and "every creature" in biblical times simply meant "all NATIONS of men" and not Jews only.
I believe you really mean Calvinist minds.

So the grace of God has brought salvation to all NATIONS of men.
Nope. All men. That is exactly what the Scripture SAYS. Not your spin on it.

On Mars Hill Paul said that God has given "all men" the assurance that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. If we apply this statement the way you apply other "all men" statements we must conclude that no individual denies the resurrection of Christ.
Again, every use of "all" must be understood within its OWN CONTEXT, not from some other cherry picked verses.

I have told you these things before but you stubbornly continue to impose your Western definitions on the ancient scriptures.
Uh, excuse me, but Greek lexicons have been written by real Greek scholars, who by definition, KNOW the culture of the Greeks, so that they can tell us how the words were used THEN. Those who wrongly think that Greek lexicons are tainted by "western definitions" can just throw their lexcons out the window. And make up whatever definition they think is right.

This is why I cannot continue with you very long because I would lose control and get myself permanently banned. I have no patience with those who refuse to see.
No, the real reason why you "cannot continue" with me is because you continue to FAIL to refute what I post and continue to FAIL to prove your own claims.

As Marv even pointed out. :wave:
 
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ToBeLoved

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Faith is acquired by hearing the Word of God preached to us.

“Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ.” Romans 10:17

We hear the Word, respond to the Word and that Word brings us saving faith.

Through that faith we are born again and we are justified before God.

Titus 2:11 tells us that “the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.”

That grace is the living and abiding Word of God – the Son of God incarnate – and the good news that accompanies His work on our behalf (the gospel that we heard that resulted in faith).

"The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ." John 1:14-17

Saving faith can only come where grace has first appeared.

Until grace appears there is nothing to have faith in.

Faith does not come first.

Grace comes first.

Faith is acquired through grace and not the other way around.

We are "saved" through faith. But we receive faith through grace.

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

By the way – and perhaps a little ironically - we also receive life changing grace through faith as well as saving faith through grace.

That is because “grace” means favor and blessing and we receive favor and blessings by faith.

“You do not have because you do not ask.” James 4:2

“Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.” Hebrews 11:6
I guess I can see why you worded it the way that you did.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Well, actually the Bible does clearly teach Sinless Perfectionism.

1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin.

Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

Romans 6:14 says sin shall not have dominion over you.

Sin has no dominion over us because of what Christ did, not because of what we do. Christ conquered sin, and Christ has given us forgiveness of sin and justified us through His blood.

The Bible does not teach sinless perfectionism. The fruit of the spirit is not perfection. It is attributes that Jesus Christ had and that through sanctification and God's work in us that we display. Sanctification is becoming more like Christ, not living perfect lives. Christ shows us how to live because He did it first. However, that does not mean He expects perfection, that means He expects us to walk with Him and the Holy Spirit to be a light in the darkness. He forgives us our sins because He knows that we sin.

Those in Christ can boldly do His will because we know that if we make mistakes we have forgiveness. His will is that we love and do for others. We are servants of the Most High. In your scenario we should all hybernate in our homes afraid to walk out the door because we may be tempted into sin. But someone who lives like that, where is there testimony?

God says be not conformed to the world, but to be a light to the world. To walk in true faith when we know we are secure in our salvation is a true gift of God. What you preach is fear around each bend and a focus on ourselves and perfection. Not a focus on being a servant of Christ and a light to the world. One cannot have faith and walk by faith when they put their faith in themselves and their ability not to sin.

Than where is your faith in God? You walk by faith in Him that you will not sin... That does not sound like true faith in God. That sounds like you have faith that if you are perfect God will not cast you into hell.

There is no getting around that. Your words show where your faith is and it is in yourself primarily, not in the finished work of Christ. Your faith is not that Christ will advocate for you on Judgement Day to the Father. Your faith is that you are sinless and are then good enough to get to heaven yourself. Don't fool yourself. Everyone is telling you the same thing, and you are like the Emperer with no clothes.

You mistake who we are IN CHRIST with who we are standing on our own merit. You need sinless perfection to get to heaven in your mind, but we are not called to that. We are called to become sanctified and to be led by the Holy Spirit and to walk with Christ, not for Christ in sinless perfection.
 
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Marvin Knox

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In 2 Timothy 3:1-9 it says there are those who have a FORM of Godliness but they deny the power thereof. In 2 Timothy 2:19 it says, let everyone that names the name of Christ to depart from iniquity. This is the context of of 2 Timothy 3:1-9. This same believer Paul warns us about is also the one mentioned in the book of Jude, too. For this type of believer has slipped among the church unaware in Jude and turning the grace of our God into a doctrine of immorality or lasciviousness (Jude 1:4).....
It does not say that the people mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:1-9 are believers.

2 Timothy 3:19 (which comes after 2 Timothy 3:1-9 duhh) is NOT the "contest of 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

Nor does it say that the people in Jude 1:4 are believers.

You twist the scriptures with your assumptions. You make those assumptions because they seem to back up what you already believe.

If that passage is your favorite passage to refute OSAS then your doctrine is in big trouble. Because that passage does not such thing.

In fact your explanation of it gives evidence of your folly.

Jesus says be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). The Heavenly Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless. If Jesus told you to be perfect (Which would include not sinning), then Jesus would be lying or tricking you into believing that you could be perfect (When in reality you could not be perfect like the Heavenly Father).
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:14

No one here denies that we have been made perfect. We just deny that that perfection status comes though our own perfections.

And please don't tell us again and again that we need to refrain from sin in order to be holy. Everyone knows that already.
 
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It does not say that the people mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:1-9 are believers.

2 Timothy 3:19 (which comes after 2 Timothy 3:1-9 duhh) is NOT the "contest of 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

Actually, re-read my post. I did not re-edit the post (you are quoting now) since you posted this. I said, 2 Timothy 2:19, which proceeds 2 Timothy 3:1-9. Please take note that there were no chapter breaks in the original text. It says let everyone that names the name of Christ in verse 19 (2nd chapter of 3rd Timothy). This is a believer.

Nor does it say that the people in Jude 1:4 are believers.

In Jude 1:4 it says they crept in unawares. Jude 1:12 says, "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear:" This an allusion to the saints gathering together weekly for the Lord's supper and for fellowship. Those who crept in unawares amongst them.

You twist the scriptures with your assumptions. You make those assumptions because they seem to back up what you already believe.
If that passage is your favorite passage to refute OSAS then your doctrine is in big trouble. Because that passage does not such thing.

In fact your explanation of it gives evidence of your folly.

Actually, Peter talks about those who twist the Scriptures. And Peter talks of us believers by contrast and how we are to be found without spot and blameless. It warns us believers of being led aware of the error of the wicked.

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen." (2 Peter 3:13-18).​

Peter had just warned us about the false prophets in 2 Peter 2:1 and 2 Peter 2:14 who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin.

For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Hebrews 10:14

No one here denies that we have been made perfect. We just deny that that perfection status comes though our own perfections.

I have already explained this passage in this thread before. Hebrews 10:14 is talking in retrospect of an entire saint's life who had lived holy. God is forever perfecting that type of believer.

And please don't tell us again and again that we need to refrain from sin in order to be holy. Everyone knows that already.

No, people here are not claiming to "not sin" in order to be holy. Many here believe that the imputed righteousness of Christ over extends to cover them even if they are sinning.


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FreeGrace2

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No, people here are not claiming to "not sin" in order to be holy. Many here believe that the imputed righteousness of Christ over extends to cover them even if they are sinning....
Here's your error. WHEN one believes in Christ, they receive Christ's imputed righteousness THEN. It isn't a come and go thing, as you seem to insinuate.

Here's some verses about what the Bible says about righteousness:

Acts 13:39 Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Rom 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference.

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Rom 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),

Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Phil 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
 
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Dear Marvin:

Please read carefully Free Grace's post above. He is claiming that one can sin and still be saved.
He does not believe sin can separate him from God after becoming a believer. What concerns me is that you argue against me on the topic of holiness in regards to one's right standing with God, too. So I am leaning that you believe something similar. If I got your belief wrong, then please explain it to me so that there is no room for confusion on what you believe in regards to this matter.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


....
 
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Here's your error. WHEN one believes in Christ, they receive Christ's imputed righteousness THEN. It isn't a come and go thing, as you seem to insinuate.

Here's some verses about what the Bible says about righteousness:

Acts 13:39 Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Rom 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference.

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Rom 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),

Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Phil 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Do you really want me to explain these verses? It would be no trouble for me to do so. Do you really want me to explain what the text says in context?
Actually, I will do so later, not only for your benefit, but for the benefit of those who may come accross this website and read it.

In any event, in the mean time, perhaps you can provide for me a real world example out of what you believe.


....
 
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FreeGrace2

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Dear Marvin:

Please read carefully Free Grace's post above. He is claiming that one can sin and still be saved.
There is no evidence or claim of sinless perfection in Scripture.

In fact, just the opposite is true. Paul wrote "for all (both Jew and Gentile) are under sin" in Rom 3:9 and "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" in Rom 3:23.

He does not believe sin can separate him from God after becoming a believer.
Because the Bible never says such a thing. However, sin breaks fellowship, not relationship, with God.

Which is why we are to confess our sins. To restore fellowship.

If one could attain sinless perfection, and therefore earn eternal life, Christ died for nothing. Which is blasphemous.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Do you really want me to explain these verses? It would be no trouble for me to do so. Do you really want to explain what the text says in context?
Yep. Each and every one.

Actually, I will do so later, not only for your benefit, but for the benefit of those who may come accross this website and read it.

In any event, in the mean time, perhaps you can provide for me a real world example out of what you believe.....
I have already. But it seems to me that you don't really read with attention what I've posted.

1 Thess 5:4-11 is a passage that contrasts the lifestyle of unbeliever (darkness, drunkness, asleep) with how the believer is supposed to live (light, sober, alert).

Then Paul admonishes the Thessalonians to not be like others (v.6).

However, Paul concludes with this promise:
v.10 - who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Is that real world enough for you?

iow, regardless of the believer's lifestyle, "we will live together with Him".

In case someone wants to use this passage as an excuse for "doing their own thing", there are many warnings in Scripture of God's discipline for disobedience and faithlessness.
 
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GillDouglas

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Dear Marvin:

Please read carefully Free Grace's post above. He is claiming that one can sin and still be saved.
He does not believe sin can separate him from God after becoming a believer. What concerns me is that you argue against me on the topic of holiness in regards to one's right standing with God, too. So I am leaning that you believe something similar. If I got your belief wrong, then please explain it to me so that there is no room for confusion on what you believe in regards to this matter.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.

Sincerely,
~ Jason.

....
Everyone but you, and whatever bizarre previous denomination you were a part of (Pentecostal maybe?), would disagree with your stance that a sinner, once God has begun the sanctifying work in them, who sins will not be saved. Most certainly Calvinists will disagree with you because we believe, unlike the Armenian, that the sanctifying work started is permanent! So long as men remain in this world they have the remnants of the old sinful nature clinging to them; surrounded by the most alluring and most subtle temptations of the Devil. No man is equal to Christ in that, when tempted by the Devil, they can resist him every time.

It is possible for believers to fall away, stumbling temporarily. A parent walking with their child may tell them to stay out of the path of approaching traffic, and they may mess up, trip and step off the curb, but their parent has no intention of ever letting the child getting hit by oncoming traffic. Our walk with Christ is just the same way. The warnings you speak of in Scriptures are not designed to show a man his ability to keep them, but rather his duty to do so. A man SHOULD follow Christ's example and love God always, this does not mean a man CAN always do so. These commands are incitement to greater faith and prayer, as well as serve as restraints on unbelievers.

Take your false and heretical teachings elsewhere.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Yep. Each and every one.


I have already. But it seems to me that you don't really read with attention what I've posted.

1 Thess 5:4-11 is a passage that contrasts the lifestyle of unbeliever (darkness, drunkness, asleep) with how the believer is supposed to live (light, sober, alert).

Then Paul admonishes the Thessalonians to not be like others (v.6).

However, Paul concludes with this promise:
v.10 - who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Is that real world enough for you?

iow, regardless of the believer's lifestyle, "we will live together with Him".

In case someone wants to use this passage as an excuse for "doing their own thing", there are many warnings in Scripture of God's discipline for disobedience and faithlessness.
I'm interested in reading Jason's explanations too.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Everyone but you, and whatever bizarre previous denomination you were a part of (Pentecostal maybe?), would disagree with your stance that a sinner, once God has begun the sanctifying work in them, who sins will not be saved. Most certainly Calvinists will disagree with you because we believe, unlike the Armenian, that the sanctifying work started is permanent! So long as men remain in this world they have the remnants of the old sinful nature clinging to them; surrounded by the most alluring and most subtle temptations of the Devil. No man is equal to Christ in that, when tempted by the Devil, they can resist him every time.

It is possible for believers to fall away, stumbling temporarily. A parent walking with their child may tell them to stay out of the path of approaching traffic, and they may mess up, trip and step off the curb, but their parent has no intention of ever letting the child getting hit by oncoming traffic. Our walk with Christ is just the same way. The warnings you speak of in Scriptures are not designed to show a man his ability to keep them, but rather his duty to do so. A man SHOULD follow Christ's example and love God always, this does not mean a man CAN always do so. These commands are incitement to greater faith and prayer, as well as serve as restraints on unbelievers.

Take your false and heretical teachings and elsewhere.
I agree. It is heretical.
 
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