On the Trinity vs Oneness

[Isaiah55:6]

Do you have scriptural support for your accusation?

(John 8:24) That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

God was with God?

That's what it says. the word was God and the word became flesh.
God is a trinity. Father, Son (the word), Holy Spirit

Of course Jesus existed before Abraham.

In this verse he doesn't say "before Abraham I was."
He says "Iam". He is claiming the Divine name of God he spoke to Moses.

Would you please identify who was speaking in the verse?

The Pharisees

God was equal with Himself?

All the persons of the trinity are equal.

 

[justlookinla]

All the persons of the trinity are equal.

To be equal means that one must compare something to something which isn't itself.

(John 8:24) That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

Nothing there about your requirement that one must believe Jesus is God.

God is a trinity. Father, Son (the word), Holy Spirit

Not what I asked. I ask again, God was with God?

In this verse he doesn't say "before Abraham I was."
He says "Iam". He is claiming the Divine name of God he spoke to Moses.

"I am" is Jesus saying 'I exist'

And....the Divine name of God is YHWH.

The Pharisees

Right.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

To be equal means that one must compare something to something which isn't itself.

The father is not the son. The son is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the father.

Nothing there about your requirement that one must believe Jesus is God.

It's the title again. Unless you believe that IAM

Not what I asked. I ask again, God was with God?

I don't know how to make this clearer. Have you ever studied the trinity?

"I am" is Jesus saying 'I exist'

And....the Divine name of God is YHWH.

He is claiming the title God gave Moses 'IAM'

"Right.

Ok. What was your point in asking?



Let me ask you this. Anytime in the OT when a person saw God, eg) Adam walking in the garden with God. Who were they seeing, the father?

 

[justlookinla]

The father is not the son. The son is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the father.

You then have multiple Gods who aren't each other.

It's the title again. Unless you believe that IAM

No, it's not the title again. Jesus simply said unless you believe I existed before Abraham, you'll die in your sins. Nowhere is the verbiage you're suggesting....Jesus saying that unless you believe I'm God you'll die in your sins.

I don't know to make this clearer. Have you ever studied the trinity?

Yes. Now, again, was God with God?

He is claiming the title God gave Moses 'IAM'

No He's not. He's saying 'I emni'.

eimi
i-mee'
First person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic): - am, have been, X it is I, was.
​

Ok. What was your point in asking?

The point was that Jesus wasn't speaking in the passage.

Let me ask you this. Anytime in the OT when a person saw God, eg) Adam walking in the garden with God. Who were they seeing, the father?

Actually, it was the voice of God (YHWH) which interacted with Adam. And it was the voice of the Father.

 

[Mrs.PGL]

Actually, Ttus 2:13 reads....

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
​

Concerning John 1, was God with God?

Yes, God is made up of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If you look to Genesis 1:26 - "New International Version
Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." God referred to Himself in a plural respect. Three separate but equal Persons. One God. The mystery of the Trinity.

 

[justlookinla]

Yes, God is made up of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If you look to Genesis 1:26 - "New International Version
Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." God referred to Himself in a plural respect. Three separate but equal Persons. One God. The mystery of the Trinity.

Nowhere does scripture indicate that God is made up of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God isn't separate but equal.

And I agree, the Trinity is a mystery. Unsolvable.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

You then have multiple Gods who aren't each other.

One God in three persons. If you look at time, you have past, present, future. But only one time not three.

Yes. Now, again, was God with God?

Ok what's you interpretation? It can't be any more clear. The WORD was God, the WORD became flesh. The only logical conclusion from this is the word that became flesh is God.

The point was that Jesus wasn't speaking in the passage.

Ok? It was still very clear to them that he was claiming to be God. That's why they said that.

Actually, it was the voice of God (YHWH) which interacted with Adam. And it was the voice of the Father.

(EXO. 6:2-3) And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: and I APPEARED unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."

(EXO 24:10) and they SAW the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.

(gen 17:1) Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord APPEARED to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless.

(gen 18:1) Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.

(Acts 7:2) 2 And he said, “Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,


I'll ask again. Who were they appeared to them The father?

 

[justlookinla]

One God in three persons. If you look at time, you have past, present, future. But only one time not three.

No, you have one person who isn't the other person, yet each person is God who isn't the other God.

Ok what's you interpretation? It can't be any more clear. The WORD was God, the WORD became flesh. The only logical conclusion from this is the word that became flesh is God.

Once more, was God with God?

Ok? It was still very clear to them that he was claiming to be God. That's why they said that.

No, He did not claim to be God. The pharisees, who completely missed who He was and rejected Him, made the claim.

(EXO. 6:2-3) And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: and I APPEARED unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them."

(EXO 24:10) and they SAW the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.

(gen 17:1) Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord APPEARED to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless.

(gen 18:1) Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.

(Acts 7:2) 2 And he said, “Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,


I'll ask again. Who were they appeared to them The father?

You actually asked me about the Eden encounter and I answered.

Let's just take the Abraham encounter and determine who appeared...

Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
​

Is the Father a man? There's only one divine entity who's been identified as a man, the man Christ Jesus.

Now, who do you identify as one of the three who appeared to Abraham? The Father or someone else?

 

[Mrs.PGL]

justlookinia - if you look at the book of Mark when the Lord is being baptized...chapter 1 starting in verse 9: He was being baptized, and a Spirit was ascending on Him like a dove (Holy Spirit) and the Father spoke from Heaven,'You are my beloved Son, with you I am well pleased." That is the trinity. They are all God. They are all three separate Persons.

Another analogy - although it isn't perfect either, would be water. You have steam, you have rain, and you have snow, but they are all still water........does that help?

 

[justlookinla]

justlookinia - if you look at the book of Mark when the Lord is being baptized...chapter 1 starting in verse 9: He was being baptized, and a Spirit was ascending on Him like a dove (Holy Spirit) and the Father spoke from Heaven,'You are my beloved Son, with you I am well pleased." That is the trinity. They are all God. They are all three separate Persons.

That doesn't make Jesus God, it makes Him the Son of God.

Another analogy - although it isn't perfect either, would be water. You have steam, you have rain, and you have snow, but they are all still water........does that help?

I don't do analogies. The argument always moves to the place of arguing about the analogy. I prefer to stick with scripture.

 

[Mrs.PGL]

That doesn't make Jesus God, it makes Him the Son of God.



I don't do analogies. The argument always moves to the place of arguing about the analogy. I prefer to stick with scripture.

I assume that you know the scripture in the OT where God says, I am, who I am?
In the NT, Jesus has stated, "Before Abraham was, I am." That along with the word from Paul, who learned directly from the Lord, and John, who was with the Lord should convince you honey. If not, blessings.

 

[justlookinla]

I assume that you know the scripture in the OT where God says, I am, who I am?
In the NT, Jesus has stated, "Before Abraham was, I am." That along with the word from Paul, who learned directly from the Lord, and John, who was with the Lord should convince you honey. If not, blessings.

Honey?

 

[Isaiah55:6]

No, you have one person who isn't the other person, yet each person is God who isn't the other God.

Through systematic theology we see the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other yet identical in essence. Each is fully divine in nature yet each is not the totality of the other persons of the Trinity. Each has a will, loves, and says, "I" and "You" when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son, who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit, and who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods but one God. Many theologians admit that the term "person" is not a perfect word to describe the three individual aspects found in God. When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God there are not three entities nor three beings. God is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.

Once more, was God with God?

I have answered it. You just don't like the answer I give you. This question is a category mistake. It can only be answered yes or no. And the answer I have cannot be answered with a simple yes or no.
The answer can only be understood in light of the trinity. The word was with God.

No, He did not claim to be God. The pharisees, who completely missed who He was and rejected Him, made the claim.

The Jews new fully well that's what he was saying. That's why they picked up stones to kill him.

You actually asked me about the Eden encounter and I answered.

Let's just take the Abraham encounter and determine who appeared...

Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
​

Is the Father a man? There's only one divine entity who's been identified as a man, the man Christ Jesus.

Now, who do you identify as one of the three who appeared to Abraham? The Father or someone else?

Since no man has seen nor can see the father because he dwells in inapproachable light, then it's logical to conclude that in the OT when people saw God they were seeing the pre-incarnate Christ.

 

[faroukfarouk]

The father is not the son. The son is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the father.

Well, exactly. One in Three. Three in One.

 

[justlookinla]

Through systematic theology we see the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Not really. Nowhere in scripture do we see God as a unity of three distinct persons. We do see, from scripture, that Jesus is one with His God and Father though.

Each of the persons is distinct from the other yet identical in essence.

Again, not scriptural.

Each is fully divine in nature yet each is not the totality of the other persons of the Trinity.

I'm not sure what you mean by "divine in nature". God isn't an 'each', He's God and that's it.

Each has a will, loves, and says, "I" and "You" when speaking.

Yes I agree. God doesn't say 'I love me as my other self loves me', God loves His Son, His Son loves His Father. The Father would exist without the Son, the Son would not exist without the Father.

The Father is not the same person as the Son, who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit, and who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods but one God.

This means there is a God who is distinct from another entity who is a God. That's polytheism in it's simplest form.

Many theologians admit that the term "person" is not a perfect word to describe the three individual aspects found in God. When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God there are not three entities nor three beings. God is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.

Subsistences do not die nor love each other. Persons do that.

I have answered it. You just don't like the answer I give you. This question is a category mistake. It can only be answered yes or no. And the answer I have cannot be answered with a simple yes or no.
The answer can only be understood in light of the trinity. The word was with God.

Was the word who was with God, God?

The Jews new fully well that's what he was saying. That's why they picked up stones to kill him.

The Jews didn't have an idea who He was, that's why they killed Him.

Since no man has seen nor can see the father because he dwells in inapproachable light, then it's logical to conclude that in the OT when people saw God they were seeing the pre-incarnate Christ.

Actually, scripture indicates that no man has seen God.....

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
​

​

 

[Isaiah55:6]

[

Was the word who was with God, God?

Absolutely

Now, can you answer the question I keep asking and you keep avoiding; if the word was God and the word became flesh then, is the word That became flesh God?

 

[dms1972]

At what point does it become important to have a correct understanding of the Godhead? Comments please.

Going back to the OPs very good question, I find that its not theological knowledge that saves - its the Person of Jesus the Messiah who saves (by his sinless life, death and resurrection) together with the ministry of the Holy Ghost. But one needs a little bit of theology as one goes on just as someone heading out to sea would need a map and compass, to use CS Lewis's illustration. I think theological knowledge can be a hindrance before one becomes a christian however, and even after can bring difficulties. Humility I'd say is what is important, and is what should come first.

Theological knowledge nowadays isn't what was called doctrine even in the last few centuries, doctrine was related to life and the difficulties one would be faced with as a christian. It was pre-eminently pastoral and aimed at lifting up the discouraged, exhorting the careless etc. William Bridge is a good example he could apply one verse for instance Psalm 42:11 to many different conditions of people providing encouragement and exhortation for a whole range of spiritual maladies.

When there was gnostic teachings circulating as in the first couple of centuries and also today, the theological task of formulating a Biblical doctrine of God was necessary to clearly set the church's understanding apart from what was false. Gnosticism needs a host religion as it has none of its own, no scripture of its own. It was important therefore that the church fathers delinated an authentic Biblical doctrine to counter these gnostic teachings.

Some churches would thoroughly prepare people interested in the christian faith through a catechism, before baptism, but this would be designed round the core of the Gospel message. The end of the catechism wasn't to be word perfect, or demonstrate theological precision but to lead someone to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. The seeker also would have been prayed for and prepared for baptism, and taught the Apostles creed.

So they'd have absorbed the Biblical teaching as part of their christian initiation, but it would have been in a less detached, less academic manner than studying a theology of the Trinity.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

Going back to the OPs very good question, I find that its not theological knowledge that saves - its the Person of Jesus the Messiah who saves (by his sinless life, death and resurrection) together with the ministry of the Holy Ghost. But one needs a little bit of theology as one goes on just as someone heading out to sea would need a map and compass, to use CS Lewis's illustration. I think theological knowledge can be a hindrance before one becomes a christian however, and even after can bring difficulties. Humility I'd say is what is important, and is what should come first.

Theological knowledge nowadays isn't what was called doctrine even in the last few centuries, doctrine was related to life and the difficulties one would be faced with as a christian. It was pre-eminently pastoral and aimed at lifting up the discouraged, exhorting the careless etc. William Bridge is a good example he could apply one verse for instance Psalm 42:11 to many different conditions of people providing encouragement and exhortation for a whole range of spiritual maladies.

When there was gnostic teachings circulating as in the first couple of centuries and also today, the theological task of formulating a Biblical doctrine of God was necessary to clearly set the church's understanding apart from what was false. Gnosticism needs a host religion as it has none of its own, no scripture of its own. It was important therefore that the church fathers delinated an authentic Biblical doctrine to counter these gnostic teachings.

Some churches would thoroughly prepare people interested in the christian faith through a catechism, before baptism, but this would be designed round the core of the Gospel message. The end of the catechism wasn't to be word perfect, or demonstrate theological precision but to lead someone to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. The seeker also would have been prayed for and prepared for baptism, and taught the Apostles creed.

So they'd have absorbed the Biblical teaching as part of their christian initiation, but it would have been in a less detached, less academic manner than studying a theology of the Trinity.

I agree to an extent that you can be saved without knowing proper doctrine. But if you are truly regenerated, you will come to believe the true doctrine when you hear it. Denying the deity of Christ and the denial of the trinity shows that there has been no regeneration.

 

[myarogancewasblottedout]

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/thomas/gospelthomas30.html
http://www.christianforums.com/bible/matthew/18:20/
I like the time-line version of trinity. since the dimension of time is supported by http://www.christianforums.com/bible/genesis/1:14/ verse. That is to say , the Father was before Jesus. Jesus was born and resurrected and now (for the scientifically minded sceptical-but-entrusted-with-truth) Holy Spirit as he said in John:14 of the Comforter.

does truth require trust? because I've been talking mph on the news about things people just don't teach (like genesis 1 dimensions.)

 

[justlookinla]

[





Absolutely

Which God was He with?

Now, can you answer the question I keep asking and you keep avoiding; if the word was God and the word became flesh then, is the word That became flesh God?

Yes.

Would this mean that flesh is God?