Question about praying to Saints in churches.

[The Portuguese Baptist]

I got him on ignore

Wow! Really? You ignore him only because he disagrees with you? Wow!

and no I do not believe it speaks of just some mystical church but a real Church

It's not a mystical church: it's the real church! The church is made up of all Christians (a.k.a., saved, forgiven, redeemed, elect, saints, children of God, God's holy people and bride of Christ) — not just the Catholic or the Orthodox Church.

No I have not. You have because nothing in the Bible says to do what you have, there is much more to Christianity than the Bible but that doesn't fit your agenda so you lot use the Bible to make up anything you want to and than act better because you follow something not even in the Bible!

No. Everything there is about Christianity is in the Bible. You, Catholics and Orthodox, by rejecting the Word of God as your sole source of faith and authority, have given way to countless falsities which have, over centuries past and still persisting today, permeated your ‘church’. These falsities are plainly contradicted by the Bible — and, regardless of what you say about that ‘Christianity is not just the Bible’, your history proves that such a philosophy has led to terrible things in your midst.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

"We are NOT, BY ANY MEANS, supposed to pray to ANYONE BESIDES THE LORD OUR GOD! The Bible NEVER EVEN HINTS at such a horrible thing."


Really why does your bible not have Romans 15:30? Or Ephesians 6:18-19?
The Saints are our brothers and sisters in faith living with God in heaven!

Yes, my Bible has Romans 15:30 and Ephesians 6:18-19. However, none of them say that we should pray to dead saints. in fact, they say just the opposite:

Romans 15:30 (ESV) — ‘I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf, [...]’ (emphasis mine). We should pray to God.

Ephesians 6:18-19 (ESV) — ‘[...] praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel, [...]’ (emphasis mine). Supplication is to be made for the saints, not to the saints.

 

[topcare]

Wow! Really? You ignore him only because he disagrees with you? Wow!

I have my reason and they are personal.

It's not a mystical church: it's the real church! The church is made up of all Christians (a.k.a., saved, forgiven, redeemed, elect, saints, children of God, God's holy people and bride of Christ) — not just the Catholic or the Orthodox Church.

You participate in a mystical body of Christ which if you look at Scriptures is never hinted at, there is no idea in Scripture that one can be any denomination and still be a Christian and in fact Christ knew that your type would exist when He prayed for unity. In fact the early Church was united all the way until 1054 A.D. when it split in two and then in the west in the 1500's a lone man thought he knew better than God and split from the Church and countless others have split from there when they have not liked what they heard. Christianity in the wet is a mess precisely because people have given into pride and think only Scriptures define Christianity and it's defined how they say it is and everyone else is wrong.

No. Everything there is about Christianity is in the Bible. You, Catholics and Orthodox, by rejecting the Word of God as your sole source of faith and authority, have given way to countless falsities which have, over centuries past and still persisting today, permeated your ‘church’. These falsities are plainly contradicted by the Bible — and, regardless of what you say about that ‘Christianity is not just the Bible’, your history proves that such a philosophy has led to terrible things in your midst.

You have not shown at all that Scriptures are to be the "sole source of faith and authority" especially when Scriptures never aid such a thing about itself and in Acts they did not consult Scripture when they had a council to decide what to do. Further Scripture itself says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of faith and it was not talking about some invisible idea, when that was penned by St. Paul through the Holy Spirit the Church was united and very visible.

Further you have no idea about which Church I go to so it's best to stop assuming. It is Protestantism that has allowed all manner of heresy to sweep in because you all reject the faith that was once delivered by the Apostles. St. Paul said "Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:15 NKJV). Notice no where does it say in there or any part of Scripture anywhere to go by the written word alone but by both written and tradition and when you reject one or the other you bring a new gospel and St. Paul had this to say about that "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. " (Galatians 1:8 NKJV).

 

[civilwarbuff]

In fact the early Church was united all the way until 1054 A.D. when it split in two and ......

There was a schism in 451 AD, the Oriental Orthodox Church.
http://3lotus.com/en/Reflections; Misc/Christian-schisms.htm#II
II. The First Major Schism (451 AD):
The Chalcedonian Schism
(return to list of contents)
The fourth Ecumenical Council was convened in Chalcedon (approximately 600 bishops), a suburb of Constantinople, in 451 AD to discuss the person and nature of Christ. It decided against the Alexandrian position led by Dioscorus, the Patriarch of Alexandria, who was deposed and exiled. He died in exile in 454. The emperor approved the decision of the council to install an Alexandrian priest called Proterius to succeed him in the See of Alexandria (452-7). The Egyptians responded by installing the rival native Patriarch Timothy the second (Aelurus) after the death of Dioscorus. Subsequently, the people revolted against the foreign appointed bishop. Angry Alexandrians assassinated him, dragged his body through the city streets, burnt it and cast its dust to the winds. Since then and till now, the see of Alexandria has been split between two lines of Patriarchal succession. The Melkite, or royalist, line is Greek Chalcedonian originating from Constantinople. The other is the non-Chalcedonian native Coptic Church. At this time, the Greek bishop of Alexandria has no following in Egypt. His main responsibility is evangelism in central Africa. The local Churches that rejected the language of Chalcedon were persecuted as heretical in the Byzantine empire. As a result, it went underground till the Islamic invasions of the seventh century.

Today, all Christendom (Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and the major Protestant denominations) except the Oriental Orthodox accepts the language of Chalcedon on the person and nature of Christ.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

You participate in a mystical body of Christ which if you look at Scriptures is never hinted at, there is no idea in Scripture that one can be any denomination and still be a Christian

Of course not! The term ‘denomination’ did not exist back then. But there are different understandings of the Bible in some aspects, and there is nothing in the Bible to say that, if we do not agree in every single thing, we are not all saved.

and in fact Christ knew that your type would exist when He prayed for unity. In fact the early Church was united all the way until 1054 A.D. when it split in two and then in the west in the 1500's a lone man thought he knew better than God

Hey! Take that back! Don't you dare speak like that about Martin Luther! He was a great guy. Had it not been because of him, I would probably be a Catholic and remain believing in falsities until I died. He realised that the Catholic Church was not following the Bible, and defended five key doctrines which the Catholic Church rejects to this day: Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo and Soli Deo Gloria.

and split from the Church and countless others have split from there when they have not liked what they heard. Christianity in the wet is a mess precisely because people have given into pride and think only Scriptures define Christianity and it's defined how they say it is and everyone else is wrong.

No, we don't say that everyone else is wrong. It's simply that everyone else who contradicts the Bible is wrong.

You have not shown at all that Scriptures are to be the "sole source of faith and authority" especially when Scriptures never aid such a thing about itself and in Acts they did not consult Scripture when they had a council to decide what to do. Further Scripture itself says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of faith and it was not talking about some invisible idea, when that was penned by St. Paul through the Holy Spirit the Church was united and very visible.

Yes, I have shown that Scripture is to be the sole source of authority. The best proof is that the rejection of this doctrine has led to the contradictions between the Bible and the Catholic Church — and, since the Bible was inspired by God, who cannot lie, it must be the Catholic Church which is wrong.

Regarding the church as ‘the pillar and foundation of truth’, we have talked about it: it is not the Catholic Church, but rather the entirety of the True Church, made all of all the people who have been justified, saved and redeemed, bought with the blood of the Living God.

Further you have no idea about which Church I go to so it's best to stop assuming.

I don't care what church you go to. I know it's wrong, because you believe in praying to saints and reject Sola Scriptura.

It is Protestantism that has allowed all manner of heresy to sweep in because you all reject the faith that was once delivered by the Apostles. St. Paul said "Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:15 NKJV). Notice no where does it say in there or any part of Scripture anywhere to go by the written word alone but by both written and tradition and when you reject one or the other you bring a new gospel and St. Paul had this to say about that "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. " (Galatians 1:8 NKJV).

Those traditions refer to the traditions of the apostles (which did not contradict the Bible), not the traditions of the Catholic Church (or whatever church you go to).

 

[Albion]

Of course not! The term ‘denomination’ did not exist back then. But there are different understandings of the Bible in some aspects, and there is nothing in the Bible to say that, if we do not agree in every single thing, we are not all saved.



Hey! Take that back! Don't you dare speak like that about Martin Luther! He was a great guy. Had it not been because of him, I would probably be a Catholic and remain believing in falsities until I died. He realised that the Catholic Church was not following the Bible, and defended five key doctrines which the Catholic Church rejects to this day: Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo and Soli Deo Gloria.



No, we don't say that everyone else is wrong. It's simply that everyone else who contradicts the Bible is wrong.



Yes, I have shown that Scripture is to be the sole source of authority. The best proof is that the rejection of this doctrine has led to the contradictions between the Bible and the Catholic Church — and, since the Bible was inspired by God, who cannot lie, it must be the Catholic Church which is wrong.

Regarding the church as ‘the pillar and foundation of truth’, we have talked about it: it is not the Catholic Church, but rather the entirety of the True Church, made all of all the people who have been justified, saved and redeemed, bought with the blood of the Living God.



I don't care what church you go to. I know it's wrong, because you believe in praying to saints and reject Sola Scriptura.



Those traditions refer to the traditions of the apostles (which did not contradict the Bible), not the traditions of the Catholic Church (or whatever church you go to).

Seems like he managed to work almost every erroneous cliche into that post, didn't he, PB?

Hold fast to your traditions means "Holy Tradition" is equal to the Bible, The Roman Catholic Church is what "pillar and foundation" refers to instead of the people of God, and Martin Luther thought he "knew better than God." Whew. If only "Henry VIII started a new church because he wanted a divorce" could have been included, it would have been a denominational Grand Slam!

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Seems like he managed to work almost every erroneous cliche into that post, didn't he, PB?

Hold fast to your traditions means "Holy Tradition" is equal to the Bible, The Roman Catholic Church is what "pillar and foundation" refers to instead of the people of God, and Martin Luther thought he "knew better than God." Whew. If only "Henry VIII started a new church because he wanted a divorce" could have been included, it would have been a denominational Grand Slam!

Whew! It appears so! I mean, gosh! I can't believe some people actually believe in these things! What shocked me the most was his saying that Luther ‘knew better than God’ (I honestly have some questions regarding whether such a statement is against CF policy — what do you think, Albion?). Gosh!

Albion, you seem to be very much aware of these arguments, and very much trained in arguing against them. That is remarkable! I have never had many debates with Catholics (and none with Orthodoxes). Even the ones I have had sometimes have never reached this point. You seem trained in this! Thank you so much for your support! God bless you!

 

[BrRichSFO]

It's all about the Communion of Saints, those passages do not exclude in any way any of the members of the Communion of Saints. There is no passage in Scripture where Paul or anyone says pray for me while I'm still alive, because once we have died we can no longer pray for each other.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

It's all about the Communion of Saints, those passages do not exclude in any way any of the members of the Communion of Saints. There is no passage in Scripture where Paul or anyone says pray for me while I'm still alive, because once we have died we can no longer pray for each other.

Why should anyone say, ‘Pray for me only whilst I am alive’? It is obvious! When you're here on Earth, you have troubles, and you want people to pray for you so that God may help you. But, when you get to Heaven, you no longer face trouble (Revelation 21:4), so you do not need God's help and your brothers' prayers any more.

 

[BrRichSFO]

Seems like he managed to work almost every erroneous cliche into that post, didn't he, PB?

Hold fast to your traditions means "Holy Tradition" is equal to the Bible, The Roman Catholic Church is what "pillar and foundation" refers to instead of the people of God, and Martin Luther thought he "knew better than God." Whew. If only "Henry VIII started a new church because he wanted a divorce" could have been included, it would have been a denominational Grand Slam!

Hold fast to the traditions means the Apostolic Teaching the Oral teaching of the Apostles, because there was no New Testament yet. The Church is the One Church founded by Christ, upon Peter, whatever Church that is. What Church is that that claims the successor of Peter as it leader? We know that there are many people today that know much better what the writers of the New Testament meant and what the Apostles taught, then those old guys of the 2nd and 3rd century. Those who knew people who, knew the writers of the New Testament and heard the Apostles.

 

[BrRichSFO]

Why should anyone say, ‘Pray for me only whilst I am alive’? It is obvious! When you're here on Earth, you have troubles, and you want people to pray for you so that God may help you. But, when you get to Heaven, you no longer face trouble (Revelation 21:4), so you do not need God's help and your brothers' prayers any more.

But I for one would surely would want those who are with God to pray for me since as Luke 16:19-31 shows they do know and care what we are going through and want to help us.

 

[Albion]

Whew! It appears so! I mean, gosh! I can't believe some people actually believe in these things! What shocked me the most was his saying that Luther ‘knew better than God’ (I honestly have some questions regarding whether such a statement is against CF policy — what do you think, Albion?). Gosh!

I don't think there's any rule about it.

Albion, you seem to be very much aware of these arguments, and very much trained in arguing against them. That is remarkable! I have never had many debates with Catholics (and none with Orthodoxes). Even the ones I have had sometimes have never reached this point. You seem trained in this! Thank you so much for your support! God bless you!

Thank you for saying that.

I was educated in Catholic schools, which is why I remember each of these lines being drilled into us students, word for word, just as they are being played back for us on CF by a new generation. The difference, I suppose, is that I investigated in order to find out what the real facts are.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Hold fast to the traditions means the Apostolic Teaching the Oral teaching of the Apostles, because there was no New Testament yet. The Church is the One Church founded by Christ, upon Peter, whatever Church that is. What Church is that that claims the successor of Peter as it leader? We know that there are many people today that know much better what the writers of the New Testament meant and what the Apostles taught, then those old guys of the 2nd and 3rd century. Those who knew people who, knew the writers of the New Testament and heard the Apostles.

But what does Peter have to do with the Catholic Church? Peter never claimed to be Catholic! There are no accounts of Peter in Rome. Peter never claimed to be superior to any of his brothers in any way, so it is wrong to say that he was the head of the Catholic Church. Besides, even if he were, nothing in the Bible indicates that such a role should pass down to his successors.

But I for one would surely would want those who are with God to pray for me since as Luke 16:19-31 shows they do know and care what we are going through and want to help us.

Where, in that passage, do you see any indication that the dead Christians in Heaven can know what is going on with us and hear us when we pray to them?

 

[Albion]

Hold fast to the traditions means the Apostolic Teaching the Oral teaching of the Apostles, because there was no New Testament yet.

No, it means to hold fast to the traditions they'd been given, not to some collection of upcoming speculation and legend that the institutional church would decide to label with the term "Holy Tradition." The two are different words, with different meanings, and they aren't even spelled the same way.

Not only do we not know what the traditions referred to in that verse are, but they could be almost anything from regular attendance at synagogue to observing the Hebrew holy days to gathering together with someone or other. And yet your church has invented Indulgences, Mary's bodily Assumption in to the heavens, Limbo, and much more under the guise of "Holy Tradition" equal to the word of God.

 

[Albion]

But I for one would surely would want those who are with God to pray for me since as Luke 16:19-31 shows they do know and care what we are going through and want to help us.

That's understandable. Unfortunately, here we're discussing the idea of US praying to THEM!

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

I don't think there's any rule about it.

Hmm... OK. It's OK.

I was educated in Catholic schools, which is why I remember each of these lines being drilled into us students, word for word as they are being played back for us on CF by a new generation. The difference, I suppose, is that I investigated in order to find out what the real facts are.

Ah! I am so glad to learn that! Thank you for actually investigating instead of falling into the lies of those guys! You are a great guy, and I believe you can be of great help to the Kingdom of God! God bless you!

 

[Albion]

But what does Peter have to do with the Catholic Church? Peter never claimed to be Catholic! There are no accounts of Peter in Rome. Peter never claimed to be superior to any of his brothers in any way, so it is wrong to say that he was the head of the Catholic Church. Besides, even if he were, nothing in the Bible indicates that such a role should pass down to his successors.

In addition, even the Roman Catholic Church agrees that Peter didn't have any known successors in Rome. He appears to have consecrated at least one while he was in Antioch, but not Rome. Even so, a man (Linus) who was NOT a bishop at the time of Peter's death is deemed by the church to be Peter's successor; and it's on this non-succession that "Apostolic Succession" in the RCC is based.

 

[Albion]

It's all about the Communion of Saints, those passages do not exclude in any way any of the members of the Communion of Saints. There is no passage in Scripture where Paul or anyone says pray for me while I'm still alive, because once we have died we can no longer pray for each other.

You're not aware of any verse in the NT in which the living are told to pray for each other then, right?

 

[civilwarbuff]

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/questions-about-holy-tradition.7920878/
Albion, PB.....You 2 might enjoy this thread...

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/questions-about-holy-tradition.7920878/
Albion, PB.....You 2 might enjoy this thread...

Ah! Thanks — but probably no, thanks, on my behalf: I have got better things to worry about than to get myself into yet another topic about Catholic/Orthodox tradition. Thank you so much, nevertheless!