Question about praying to Saints in churches.

[Albion]

Everything does not need to be proven from Scripture.

If they are to be made doctrines binding upon the faithful, they do.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Everything does not need to be proven from Scripture.

Of course not! You can just speak out whatever you feel like and it suddenly becomes true! Bam! Just like that! For example, Adam was black: I said it; therefore — bam! —, it is true! The Pope is the Antichrist: I said it; therefore — bam! —, it is true! I can just say something and it automatically becomes true!

You said: ‘Peter was chosen by Christ to shepherd His flock and care for His sheep after He returned to Heaven. Peter was left here as head of the Apostles to to strengthen his brethren and guide Christ's Church in Christ's physical absence. He and he alone was given the Keys to the Kingdom. Peter was once a member of the flock and was given the office of shepherd by Christ. The Bishops of Rome succeed him in that office as chief shepherd on earth.’ Bam! It is true!

Nothing the Popes or the Church have ever taught on Doctrine or Morals is against anything in Scripture.

Yeah, right! What about salvation by works? What about the Sacraments? What about the infallibility of the Pope? What about Purgatory? What about the Apocrypha? What about praying to saints? What about Mary's perpetual virginity? What about the confession to priests? What about praying for the dead? What about idolatry? What about infant baptism? What about holy water? Gosh! The Catholic Church abundantly contradicts the Bible!

I interpret Scripture exactly as the Church and the early Christians have interpreted Scripture.

No, you don't. The problems raised above are examples of this.

All if the Scripture commentaries of the Church Fathers are all available for anyone to read.

And why should I care about that?

 

[Albion]

And why should I care about that?

I agree. The idea that the opinions of a scattering of church leaders whose lives span a number of centuries and which, in many cases, contradict the words of other such men...

...doesn't mean much more than that they were concerned about the same issues as we are today--and commented on them.

 

[BrRichSFO]

Of course not! You can just speak out whatever you feel like and it suddenly becomes true! Bam! Just like that! For example, Adam was black: I said it; therefore — bam! —, it is true! The Pope is the Antichrist: I said it; therefore — bam! —, it is true! I can just say something and it automatically becomes true!

You said: ‘Peter was chosen by Christ to shepherd His flock and care for His sheep after He returned to Heaven. Peter was left here as head of the Apostles to to strengthen his brethren and guide Christ's Church in Christ's physical absence. He and he alone was given the Keys to the Kingdom. Peter was once a member of the flock and was given the office of shepherd by Christ. The Bishops of Rome succeed him in that office as chief shepherd on earth.’ Bam! It is true!



Yeah, right! What about salvation by works? What about the Sacraments? What about the infallibility of the Pope? What about Purgatory? What about the Apocrypha? What about praying to saints? What about Mary's perpetual virginity? What about the confession to priests? What about praying for the dead? What about idolatry? What about infant baptism? What about holy water? Gosh! The Catholic Church abundantly contradicts the Bible!



No, you don't. The problems raised above are examples of this.



And why should I care about that?

 

[BrRichSFO]

Everything taught by the Church is supported by Sacred Scripture, Apostolic Teaching, the Early Christian writings, Church History. Not just because I said them.

 

[Albion]

Everything taught by the Church is supported by Sacred Scripture, Apostolic Teaching, the Early Christian writings, Church History. Not just because I said them.

Ah..no. That's the theory, but I believe the point was concerned with what is the actuality. It's easy to wave a term like "Apostolic Teaching" at any opinion, but that doesn't make it the teaching of the Apostles.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Everything taught by the Church is supported by Sacred Scripture, Apostolic Teaching, the Early Christian writings, Church History. Not just because I said them.

By ‘Apostolic Teaching, the Early Christian writings, Church History’, maybe, but not by Sacred Scripture. The Bible heavily contradicts the Catholic Church, and I have given examples of it.

 

[Albion]

By ‘Apostolic Teaching, the Early Christian writings, Church History’, maybe, but not by Sacred Scripture. The Bible heavily contradicts the Catholic Church, and I have given examples of it.

As for Scripture...that's right. That denomination's beliefs are not defined by Scripture, nor does the church itself claim that they are (despite what our friend here likes to say).

But neither do "Apostolic Tradition," "Early Church writings," or the rest. It's all based upon a selective picking and choosing from among much later and inconsistent opinions and legends. THEN, the church claims that Apostolic Tradition or something like was what authorized it.

 

[topcare]

By ‘Apostolic Teaching, the Early Christian writings, Church History’, maybe, but not by Sacred Scripture. The Bible heavily contradicts the Catholic Church, and I have given examples of it.

No, your errant ideas do not Scripture necessarily

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

No, your errant ideas do not Scripture necessarily

Sorry... What do you mean? English is not my native language, and the grammar of that sentence is confusing me... Could you please rephrase? Thanks!

 

[BrRichSFO]

Yeah, right! What about salvation by works? What about the Sacraments? What about the infallibility of the Pope? What about Purgatory? What about the Apocrypha? What about praying to saints? What about Mary's perpetual virginity? What about the confession to priests? What about praying for the dead? What about idolatry? What about infant baptism? What about holy water? Gosh! The Catholic Church abundantly contradicts the Bible!


The Catholic Church does not teach Salvation by Works. But that Works are to accompany our Faith. James 2:24-26
The Sacraments do not contradict the Bible.
The Infallibility of the Pope on matters of Faith and Morals does not contradict the Bible.
Purgatory does not contradict the Bible.
Intercession of Saints does not contradict the Bible.
Mary's Perpetual virginity does not contradict the Bible.
Confession for a priest does not contradict the Bible.
Praying for the Dead is supported in the Bible.
Idolatry is forbidden by the Bible, the Catholic Church does not teach idolatry.
Infant Baptism does not contradict the Bible.
Sacramental (s) (Holy Water) are not contradicted in the Bible.

Nothing the Catholic Church teaches contradicts the Bible.
Show one place where any one of these is contradicted by the Scriptures.

 

[Albion]

The Catholic Church does not teach Salvation by Works. But that Works are to accompany our Faith. James 2:24-26

You're wrong there. In fact, the way that you've worded it, you've basically described the Protestant view of the matter--Faith saves, but it will produce good works.

The Sacraments do not contradict the Bible.

No, they don't. The question is "Which ARE the sacraments?"

The Infallibility of the Pope on matters of Faith and Morals does not contradict the Bible.

Sure it does. For one thing, it's completely extra-Biblical, and second, when the Pope declares an unscriptural doctrine by invoking a power he does not have, that's a contradiction to the Bible.

Purgatory does not contradict the Bible.

Certainly it does. The NT speaks of heaven and hell but not a purgatory.

ntercession of Saints does not contradict the Bible.

It's without Biblical basis, so I'd call that 'contradicting the Bible.'

Mary's Perpetual virginity does not contradict the Bible.

Again, the Bible doesn't teach it.

Confession for a priest does not contradict the Bible.

Probably not, but neither is it required of any believer.

Praying for the Dead is supported in the Bible.

No, it isn't. The dead praying for us is Biblical, but not us praying TO them.

Idolatry is forbidden by the Bible, the Catholic Church does not teach idolatry.

Idolatry is a matter of intent and action. Whether or not this occurs is open to question.

Infant Baptism does not contradict the Bible.

No, it doesn't appear that it does.

Sacramental (s) (Holy Water) are not contradicted in the Bible.

Well, there's no warrant FOR "Holy Water," is there?

Nothing the Catholic Church teaches contradicts the Bible.

Actually, it's the case that quite a lot does! It's not the case that every practice and belief that is criticized by someone or other does that, though.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

The Catholic Church does not teach Salvation by Works. But that Works are to accompany our Faith. James 2:24-26

You have to be kidding me! What was the whole point of Luther's sola fide, then? I mean, are you seriously telling me that you and your church agree with Luther about sola fide?

The Sacraments do not contradict the Bible.

Yes, they do, since the Bible says that salvation is attained by faith alone, and not by works (John 1:12; John 3:16; Acts of the Apostles 16:31; Romans 3:28; Romans 10:9; Galatians 3:24; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5). As I am led to understand, the Catholic Church says that, in order to be saved, Christians must believe, be baptised, confess their sins to a priest, obey the Church, not die with mortal sins, etc.

The Infallibility of the Pope on matters of Faith and Morals does not contradict the Bible.

Yes, it does, in that everyone sins (Romans 3:10), which includes lying. It also contradicts common sense, because we all know we cannot be sure that someone is not lying. It has also been disproven by current observation, since the Catholic Church preaches things that are unsupported by and contrary to the Bible.

In fact, the very office of the Pope is unbiblical, not only in that the Bible advocates for the separation of the state from the church (Matthew 22:21; Romans 13:1-7), but also that nowhere is apostolic succession mentioned in the Bible, and that neither did Peter rule over the other apostles in matters of faith, as the Church teaches.

Purgatory does not contradict the Bible.

Yes, it does. Firstly, Purgatory is never even mentioned in the Bible. Besides, the New Testament shows evidence that it cannot exist: both Lazarus and rich man went immediately to Heaven and to Hell, respectively, just when they died, with no indication of any Purgatory (Luke 16:19-31); and Paul expected to go to Heaven as soon as he died, with no indication of any Purgatory (Philippians 1:23). Furthermore, the basic idea of Purgatory, a place after death where our sins are cleansed, is contrary to Scripture that says our sins are purified upon conversion (Isaiah 53:5; Hebrews 7:27; 1 John 1:9; 1 John 2:2 — and, again, all the aforementioned ones about faith alone).

Intercession of Saints does not contradict the Bible.

Yes, it does: see post #7.

Mary's Perpetual virginity does not contradict the Bible.

Yes, it does, because Jesus had brothers and sisters (Matthew 12:47), and we are even given the brothers' names (Matthew 13:55-56). It also contradicts common sense, because it would be ridiculous to think that Mary, for some reason, would have had to remain a virgin for the rest of her life. Evidently, she eventually married Joseph and they had sex, like any other couple — there is no biblical reason to think otherwise.

I also forgot to mention Mary's immaculate conception, which contradicts the Bible in that all have sinned (Romans 3:10).

Confession for a priest does not contradict the Bible.

Yes, it does, because we are to confess our sins to God (1 John 1:9). The Bible nowhere says that we have to confess sins to anyone else in order to effectively be forgiven. That idea is ridiculous.

Praying for the Dead is supported in the Bible.

Where?

Idolatry is forbidden by the Bible, the Catholic Church does not teach idolatry.

Perhaps not explicitly, but every single Catholic Church I have been to has got loads of images of Jesus and Mary and saints hanging on the walls — if they are not for idolatry, what are they doing there? Besides, the Catholic Church has removed from the Ten Commandments the second commandment, which clearly prohibits idolatry — they then divided the tenth commandment in two, in order to keep the numbering.

Infant Baptism does not contradict the Bible.

Yes, it does, because the Bible presents baptism as preceded by faith in Christ Jesus (Matthew 28:19; Acts of the Apostles 8:36-38; Acts of the Apostles 16:31-33). Evidently, a child cannot believe. The idea of infant baptism is alien to the Bible.

Sacramental (s) (Holy Water) are not contradicted in the Bible.

Yes, it is, because the Bible never even mentions it. All water is the same.

Nothing the Catholic Church teaches contradicts the Bible.
Show one place where any one of these is contradicted by the Scriptures.

Here's a list: http://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-questions.html. Have fun!

 

[topcare]

Sorry... What do you mean? English is not my native language, and the grammar of that sentence is confusing me... Could you please rephrase? Thanks!

Sorry about that, I got confused by my own post too. Let me try again

Your ideas contradict Catholicism and Traditional Christianity. Scripture does not contradict them

 

[topcare]

Here's a list: http://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-questions.html. Have fun!

Why would any Traditional Christian believe a site that is hateful towards them.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

Sorry about that, I got confused by my own post too. Let me try again

It's OK. Don't feel bad about that!

Your ideas contradict Catholicism and Traditional Christianity. Scripture does not contradict them

I don't care if my ideas contradict Catholicism and Traditional Christianity. I know that they are not contradicted, but rather supported, by the Bible.

Why would any Traditional Christian believe a site that is hateful towards them.

Hateful? Did you even open it? It is not hateful. In fact, if it is, they make it pretty clear that it is not their intention to be hateful: ‘You may disagree with our conclusions, but they are the results of years of being Catholic, being taught Catholic doctrine, practising Catholicism, studying Catholic theology, and conversing with Catholics. We are not bashing the Catholic Church, and we do not hate Catholics. We simply believe there are some serious doctrinal problems with the Catholic Church that need to be addressed biblically.’

If you see anything hateful there, please let me know, so that I may message them. With that said, since the issue was brought up, I also apologise if I have ever sounded hateful towards Catholics. To all Catholics (and, for that purpose, to all those with whom I may disagree in some aspects), I have to say that none of you deserve my hatred, and that I am deeply sorry if I have ever offended you or demonstrated any hatred.

 

[topcare]

I don't care if my ideas contradict Catholicism and Traditional Christianity. I know that they are not contradicted, but rather supported, by the Bible.

No they do not.

Hateful? Did you even open it? It is not hateful. In fact, if it is, they make it pretty clear that it is not their intention to be hateful: ‘You may disagree with our conclusions, but they are the results of years of being Catholic, being taught Catholic doctrine, practicing Catholicism, studying Catholic theology, and conversing with Catholics. We are not bashing the Catholic Church, and we do not hate Catholics. We simply believe there are some serious doctrinal problems with the Catholic Church that need to be addressed biblically.’

The paragraph I made bold and underlined in the above tells me everything I need to know. I am a former Catholic and can spot anti Catholic sentiments easily. I can tell you they have no idea what they are talking about.

If you see anything hateful there, please let me know, so that I may message them. With that said, since the issue was brought up, I also apologize if I have ever sounded hateful towards Catholics. To all Catholics (and, for that purpose, to all those with whom I may disagree in some aspects), I have to say that none of you deserve my hatred, and that I am deeply sorry if I have ever offended you or demonstrated any hatred.

No offense, ust learn first before assuming everything is not Biblical. To be completely honest I could say the same thing for Protestant Evangelicals that you all are not biblical because you used a Bible without all the books in it, but I need to study why before I make wild accusations like that and understand the reasoning

 

[prodromos]

I've just spent the last 4 days staying in a couple of the monasteries on Mount Athos. There have been so many miracles documented there resulting from the intercessions of the Saints and especially of Mary, that the mere suggestion that the Saints cannot hear our prayers let alone pray for us is utterly ludicrous. The relics of Saints are among the greatest treasures of the monasteries, many of which smell of myrrh while all are completely whole despite some of them being centuries old. One icon of Mary in the monastery church has wrought the miraculous healing of many cancer sufferers around the world, while ribbons graced with contact with Mary's belt have enabled hundreds of women with fertility problems to conceive children. Those who have no respect for the Orthodox Christian faith can mock all they like. I just smile and shake my head in wonder. God's Grace abounds in His Saints, who being made perfect in Christ, love all of their fellow man, and we who have received abundant Grace through their prayers and intercessions return that love. The Orthodox Church is a community of love between all members of Christ's body. The fact that death has been destroyed by Christ's life giving resurrection is clearly demonstrated in the life of the Orthodox Church.
Seriously, come and see.
I received some more myrrh from the myrrh streaming relics of Saint Demetrios two weeks ago and I've been carrying it in my jacket pocket sealed in a small zip-lock plastic pouch. Every where I go, people comment on the strong smell of myrrh.

 

[The Portuguese Baptist]

No they do not.

Er... Yes, they are. All of the Baptists' religious beliefs — which are also my beliefs — are entirely supported by the Bible.

The paragraph I made bold and underlined in the above tells me everything I need to know. I am a former Catholic and can spot anti Catholic sentiments easily. I can tell you they have no idea what they are talking about.

Well, fine! If you read hatred towards Catholics in ‘We do not hate Catholics’, what more shall I say?

No offense, ust learn first before assuming everything is not Biblical. To be completely honest I could say the same thing for Protestant Evangelicals that you all are not biblical because you used a Bible without all the books in it, but I need to study why before I make wild accusations like that and understand the reasoning

My Bible contains all the necessary books to prove the Catholic Church wrong!

 

[BrRichSFO]

What

Er... Yes, they are. All of the Baptists' religious beliefs — which are also my beliefs — are entirely supported by the Bible.



Well, fine! If you read hatred towards Catholics in ‘We do not hate Catholics’, what more shall I say?



My Bible contains all the necessary books to prove the Catholic Church wrong!

What was posted on a few of the other replies is that if it is not in the Bible then it is against or opposed to the Bible.
Something is opposed or against the Bible if the Bible specifically teaches something opposite to, or specifically forbids something.

For instance if the Bible were to forbid infant Baptism, then Infant Baptism would be against the Bible.

There is no passage of Scripture that forbids Infant Baptism.
There are several that state that whole families were Baptized which would include any infants. Acts 26:32-33 and 1 Cor. 1:16 The Scriptures in which Paul compares circumcision to Baptism, make Baptism the new circumcision and in the Old Testament infants were circumcised on the 8th day after birth to enter into the family of God.