Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[Psalm3704]

How about showing this 8th trumpet in scripture.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

The 7th trumpet happens in the middle of the tribulation, Revelation 11. No more trumpet will sound until immediately after the tribulation. You already know this and have preached it a hundred times on this forum already.










.

 

[redleghunter]

The Book of Revelation portrays the same exact events in different ways.

The seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven chalices all prophesy the destruction of the Jews, their temple, and their city and all this was fulfilled during 67 A.D. through 70 A.D.

This is why the events prophesied in the Book of Revelation are not in strict chronological order.

All that is left of the Book of Revelation to be fulfilled is Revelation 19 and 20.

There are some real issues with the internal evidence supporting your eschatological theological approach. Not to mention the external evidence is scant Revelation and the epistles of John were penned before 67 AD.

Preterism is literal when convenient and allegorical when necessary.

I also noticed preterism fails to account for several OT end times prophecies.

 

[redleghunter]

No, they died by being beheaded as it says. It is a very specific way to die. Christ was not "beheaded", he was crucified. Stephen was not beheaded, he was stoned to death. Those that practice Eisegesis need to change the text to insert their own beliefs and ideas. Rev 20 speaks of those who were beheaded during the tribulation for refusing the mark of the beast. That same beast was destroyed at the second coming shown in Rev 19 proving whoever these beheaded saints are, lived in the world just prior to the second coming which means their deaths and the trib are future events.

What also destroys the Amill interpretation of Rev 20, aside from their constant re-writing of the text, is that the first resurrection mentioned in Rev 20 is the bodily resurrection of those beheaded saints. It is called the first because it is the first of two mass bodily resurrection written in Rev 20. The second resurrection is "the rest of the dead" who happen to be all the unsaved from all time.

​

All valid points. However I believe the position of the poster you responded to is Amil but preterist.

Amils believe in a literal future Second Coming of Christ. Preterism does not. Partial preterism has many views of the Second Advent.

 

[redleghunter]

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


This scripture shows:

The raptured ones and the resurrected ones are caught up together in the air and both groups are together with the Lord in the air as He comes from Heaven down to earth.


Please explain how the resurrected ones who rise first, and the raptured ones who are caught together with them, are somehow not all together in the same place at the same time, if this is two separate events, as you say?



JLB

My understanding of the post was based on the divisions of resurrection in Revelation 20. I believe your approach is the pre-wrath or historic millennial position. If I am incorrect please let me know.

 

[JLB777]

My understanding of the post was based on the divisions of resurrection in Revelation 20. I believe your approach is the pre-wrath or historic millennial position. If I am incorrect please let me know.

You are incorrect.

The resurrection/rapture is one event that takes place at His coming.

His coming for His people is on the last Day, after the resurrection.


JLB

 

[JLB777]

That is one way to really stretch scripture to make it seem to fit a theory. I just disagree. Where to we get the "gathering" in 1 Thes. 4? I think it comes from the word "toGETHER." First the dead in Christ rise up into the air. Then we who are alive and remain are caught up together with them in the clouds. So we that are alive go TOGETHER with those who have just risen. Perhaps angels "gather" us but 1 thes. Does not tell us this. The dead resurrected and the alive changed go TOGETHER to meet Christ in the air. But before any of this, Paul tells us that Jesus brings with him the spirits (and souls) of those who have died in Christ.

If you will be honest with the scriptures, Paul does not back up to what happens in heaven before Jesus descends: HIS narrative picks up with Jesus bringing the spirits. Therefore it is a HUGE stretch to include any gathering in heaven. In my mind it is much more likely that this gathering in Matthew 24 is God gathering all of Israel back to Israel.

Another problem with your theory is that when Paul describes the TIMING of his rapture, it fits perfectly with the 6th seal, NOT chapter 11.

Yet another problem, you will STILL miss the marriage and supper. Do you realize, if you just change your theory to pretrib, then EVERYTHING FITS!

I disagree, what Paul wrote was a MYSTERY. He received it just the way He received his gospel: by revealed knowledge. The very fact that it was a mystery proves the olivet discourse does not speak to the rapture at all. Why should it? At that time, the Gentile church of which we are a part was a mystery hidden in God. That was Jesus, a prophet of the OLd Covenant, answered questions of Old Covenant men asking about the end of THEIR age. Why then would anyone even expect to find anything about the Gentile church in Matthew 24?

I don't have a theory, only the words of scripture.

There is only one return of Jesus Christ, which is called the second coming, in which He comes from heaven to gather His people together, at the resurrection/rapture which is one event.

This event happens after the tribulation.


JLB

 

[toLiJC]

And here I am believing what Daniel wrote, that Beasts are KINGS. Go figure.

can you/we say the iniquity is a king?!, or that there has been only one unrighteous/lawless person by whom the iniquity has existed/worked?!, but there would be no iniquity without offenders among the human beings, because if all humans were completely righteous/good, then there would be no iniquity at all, so do you now understand (what) that biblical terminology (is)?!

Blessings

 

[iamlamad]

Matthew 24:29-31
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

The 7th trumpet happens in the middle of the tribulation, Revelation 11. No more trumpet will sound until immediately after the tribulation. You already know this and have preached it a hundred times on this forum already.
.

I think he is EXTREMELY forgetful!

 

[iamlamad]

There are some real issues with the internal evidence supporting your eschatological theological approach. Not to mention the external evidence is scant Revelation and the epistles of John were penned before 67 AD.

Preterism is literal when convenient and allegorical when necessary.

I also noticed preterism fails to account for several OT end times prophecies.

No preterist has EVER been able to identify when each of the trumpets and vials took place. Of course they never will be able to until these things take place, for they are FUTURE - a word that seems not to be in a preterist's vocabulary.

 

[iamlamad]

You are incorrect.

The resurrection/rapture is one event that takes place at His coming.

His coming for His people is on the last Day, after the resurrection.

JLB

"His coming for His people is on the last Day, after the resurrection."

How could this be when He does not call up the dead until AFTER He comes (to the air)? (1 Thes. 4)

 

[iamlamad]

I don't have a theory, only the words of scripture.

There is only one return of Jesus Christ, which is called the second coming, in which He comes from heaven to gather His people together, at the resurrection/rapture which is one event.

This event happens after the tribulation.


JLB

"I don't have a theory" Ha ha ha! OF COURSE YOU HAVE A THEORY:

"His coming for His people is on the last Day, after the resurrection."

Here is it proven to be a BOGUS theory.

The correct order will be:
1: Jesus descends to the air
2: Jesus calls up the dead first
3. Then calls up those alive and in Christ
4: then time changes from "age of grace" to "Day of the lord."
5. The 6th seal earthquake next as the start of the DAY of his WRATH.
5. Next, before the 70th week can begin with the 7th seal, two events must take place:
.....A. The 144,000 must be sealed
.....B. The church must be seen in heaven
6. The 7th seal officially opens the 70th week of Daniel
7. Trumpet judgments come
8. 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week.
9. Days of great tribulation take place, and God begins the vials to SHORTEN those days.
After the vials, and after the marriage in heaven, then, finally Jesus comes for the battle of Armageddon

 

[iamlamad]

can you/we say the iniquity is a king?!, or that there has been only one unrighteous/lawless person by whom the iniquity has existed/worked?!, but there would be no iniquity without offenders among the human beings, because if all humans were completely righteous/good, then there would be no iniquity at all, so do you now understand (what) that biblical terminology (is)?!

Blessings

Dan. 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

 

[BABerean2]

Some of us KNOW this takes place before the 70th week. I guess you still don't know it. Paul knew it and wrote about it.

Just for arguments sake, lets say the 69th week ended the day Jesus was "cut off" at the Cross.

When He was resurrected, it would have been 3 days into the 70th week.

He was with the Apostles for 40 days, before He ascended into heaven.
This would have been 40 days into the 70th week.

However, the truth of the matter is that the 69th week ended when He was anointed by His Father from heaven, when His cousin John put him in the Jordan River.


Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Luk_3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

We also know His earthly ministry lasted for about 3 1/2 years which is 1/2 week. Therefore, He was cut off in the middle of the week.


.

 

[iamlamad]

Just for arguments sake, lets say the 69th week ended the day Jesus was "cut off" at the Cross.

When He was resurrected, it would have been 3 days into the 70th week.

He was with the Apostles for 40 days, before He ascended into heaven.
This would have been 40 days into the 70th week.

However, the truth of the matter is that the 69th week ended when He was anointed by His Father from heaven, when His cousin John put him in the Jordan River.


Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Luk_3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

We also know His earthly ministry lasted for about 3 1/2 years which is 1/2 week. Therefore, He was cut off in the middle of the week.


.

Suppose you show us a verse (such as in Rev. 11:2 & 3) that PROVES Jesus' ministry was 3 1/2 years.

Next, there is no "about" in prophecy: Rev. 11:2, 3, 12:6 and 13:5

If Jesus' minstry was to fulfill half of the week, it would be recorded somewhere.

 

[toLiJC]

Dan. 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

yes, and, as it was also explained before, Daniel says "kings" because the iniquities and the activities in general cannot be without human beings, or can we say there is lawlessness where there is no lawless person?!, or there is human business where there is no human being?!

Blessings

 

[iamlamad]

yes, and, as it was already explained before, Daniel says "kings" because the iniquities and the activities in general cannot be without human beings, or can we say there is lawlessness where there is no lawless person?!, or there is human business where there is no human being?!

Blessings

DAniel says "kings" because that was who led nations back then! Why come up with something a college proffessor might not even understand? Daniel was speaking of NATIONS or KINGDOMS with a King, a president or some kind of LEADER.

Without much doubt, one of those nations will be what was then "Babylon" with Old NEB' as the king. oh! Wait: the "king" of Babylon received a deadly wound: he was hung!

 

[toLiJC]

DAniel says "kings" because that was who led nations back then! Why come up with something a college proffessor might not even understand? Daniel was speaking of NATIONS or KINGDOMS with a King, a president or some kind of LEADER.

Without much doubt, one of those nations will be what was then "Babylon" with Old NEB' as the king. oh! Wait: the "king" of Babylon received a deadly wound: he was hung!

and who was/is the king of all believers/worshipers/clerics of the world (without respect to the respective religious identity), or of all spiritual violators of the world, after there have been so many such?!, or who was/is the king of all businessmen of the world, or the king of all intellectuals, because we talk about the four main activities and iniquities, namely the spiritual, the mental/intellectual, the economic, and the physical?!

Blessings

 

[ewq1938]

You are incorrect.

The resurrection/rapture is one event that takes place at His coming.

No, those two things are two events happening to two different groups of people which happen at His coming.

1. The resurrection only happens to the dead in Christ.
2. The rapture only happens to the saints who survived the tribulation on Earth.

 

[iamlamad]

and who was/is the king of all believers/worshipers/clerics of the world (without respect to the respective religious identity), or of all spiritual violators of the world, after there have been so many such?!, or who was/is the king of all businessmen of the world, or the king of all intellectuals, because we talk about the four main activities and iniquities, namely the spiritual, the mental/intellectual, the economic, and the physical?!

Blessings

Ok! Ok! SHOW ME A SCRIPTURE "four main activities and iniquities namely the spiritual, the mental/intellectual, the economic, and the physical? So far you are talking human reasoning.

 

[redleghunter]

You are incorrect.

The resurrection/rapture is one event that takes place at His coming.

His coming for His people is on the last Day, after the resurrection.


JLB

Thanks just wanted to know to properly follow the thread. So we historic pre-millennial, pre-trib pre-millennial, preterism and a few others all on one thread! WOW