Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

[Jan001]

This is a very confusing post: first it is said that there is only ONE more resurrection to come:

Then TWO resurrections are mentioned! Go figure! The FINAL will be at His coming. But then, "Next is the judgment of all people, both the sheep and the goats, at the great white throne.

Please think about this and correct it. You will be confusing people.

The first resurrection was when Jesus Christ died on the cross. It is finished.

It is impossible for there to be another first resurrection. Parentheses should be used in order to correctly understand the passage. Many Bible translators neglected to use parentheses and so the true meaning which was intended by the author is not easily understood.

Revelation 20:4-6
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. niv​

An easier way to understand the meaning of the original author would be:

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. ​

The rest of the dead will not resurrect until Jesus' second coming/appearing which is at the end of time when the thousand years are over. The "thousand years" is a figure of speech for an unknown quantity, in this case an unknown quantity of time. Psalm 50:10

The second resurrection occurs at the sound of the last trumpet. At the sound of the last trumpet, Jesus defeats the Antichrist with the power of His second coming/ appearing.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” niv

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. niv

2 Timothy 4:1-2
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. niv

2 Thessalonians 2:7-10
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. niv
​

Jesus Christ defeats the Antichrist with the power and glory of His second coming.

2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. niv

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. niv
​

There is no pre-trib rapture. Jesus will be coming to earth only once more and He will defeat the Antichrist with the splendor/power and glory of His coming and this will be at the end of time. This second coming of Jesus causes the resurrection of all the dead and consequently the white throne judgment.


The second resurrection happens shortly before the great white throne judgment of all people.

This second resurrection occurs when the faithful still living on earth meet Jesus and His angels and His saints in the air. As they rise to meet Jesus, their mortal bodies are changed into resurrected bodies. All the faithful people who died between the first resurrection and this second resurrection will receive their resurrected bodies shortly before they descend to meet the faithful on earth who will rise to meet them in the air. The evildoers who do not rise to meet Jesus will also receive their resurrected bodies at this same time.

Then, you escape from reality yet again when you say that all will resurrect at the "last trumpet." Sorry, but the DEAD - spiritually speaking - the sinners in hell will not rise until after the 1000 year reign of Christ. It will be only those IN CHRIST that rise at the "last trump." I do hope you don't imagine this as the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

All the dead physical bodies in the graves, both the bodies of the good people and also the bodies of the evil people, will rise at the sound of the last trumpet at the time of the second and final resurrection.

The 7th trumpet of Revelation 11 is now history. After Jesus ascended into heaven, He and His saints began their 1000 year spiritual reign. The 42 months was the siege of the Romans against the Jews in 67-70 A.D. This was God's vengeance against the unbelieving Jews who rejected His Son Jesus Christ who was sent from God to be their own Messiah.

Next, keep in mind that Rev. 19 SHOWS His coming, but Paul in 1 Thes. mentions His coming at the pretrib rapture. So we have TWO comings. It is simply impossible to fit all verses on His "coming" into one coming. Many saints believe He will come first FOR His saints, and then in Rev. 19 WITH His saints.

There is no pre-trib rapture. Jesus does not return to earth again until the sound of the last trumpet. Jesus does not return to earth again until it is time to defeat the Antichrist. Jesus does not return to earth again until it is time for the resurrection of the dead. Jesus does not return to earth again until it is time for Him to judge all people at the great white throne.

 

[Jan001]

So much wrong here... we can start here:
Death is not destroyed at the last trumpet as John tells us that Death and the Grave are thrown into the lake of fire.

ONLY the dead in Christ are raised upon his return.

Death is destroyed at sound of the last trumpet. All the dead are resurrected. Every person receives an immortal body after the last trumpet sounds. There will be no more death. Immortal bodies cannot die. Each person will then receive his judgment at the great white throne.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” niv

Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. niv
​

These two Scripture passages depict the events of the day of Jesus' second coming/appearing.

​

 

[BABerean2]

All the dead physical bodies in the graves, both the bodies of the good people and also the bodies of the evil people, will rise at the sound of the last trumpet at the time of the second and final resurrection.

The 7th trumpet of Revelation 11 is now history. After Jesus ascended into heaven, He and His saints began their 1000 year spiritual reign. The 42 months was the siege of the Romans against the Jews in 67-70 A.D. This was God's vengeance against the unbelieving Jews who rejected His Son Jesus Christ who was sent from God to be their own Messiah.

There is no pre-trib rapture. Jesus does not return to earth again until the sound of the last trumpet. Jesus does not return to earth again until it is time to defeat the Antichrist. Jesus does not return to earth again until it is time for the resurrection of the dead. Jesus does not return to earth again until it is time for Him to judge all people at the great white throne.

I was saying Amen the whole way until you got to the part about the 7th trumpet.

The wrath of God and the Judgment of the dead occur at the 7th trump (Rev. 11:18), which is the last trump found in 1st Cor. chapter 15.

Look at Rev. 10:7. The Church is the "mystery". It ends at the 7th trumpet.

There is no 8th trumpet. Therefore, the 7th trump has to be the last.
.

 

[ewq1938]

The first resurrection was when Jesus Christ died on the cross. It is finished.

No, Rev 20 does not support such an errant theory. The first of two resurrections in Rev 20 are a group of people who were beheaded for refusing the mark of the beast. They make up what Rev 20 calls the first resurrection. Rev 20 does not mention or take place at the cross. Such simplistic errors reveal the errant nature of Amil.

 

[ewq1938]

Death is destroyed at sound of the last trumpet. All the dead are resurrected. Every person receives an immortal body after the last trumpet sounds.

​

That's known as Universal salvation and it, like Amil, is a false doctrine. All will not receive immortal bodies and death will exist long after the 7th trump until death itself is cast into the lake of fire:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[Jan001]

Preposterous and simply NOT scripture: This verse in chronology is right at the midpoint of the FUTURE 70th week:

The 70th week is ancient history. It concerned Jesus' lifetime (3/2 B.C.) until the destruction of Jerusalem (67-70 A.D.).

Rev. 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.

Jesus began His reign when He ascended into heaven after His resurrection. Jesus and His saints in heaven are reigning spiritually over all the world right now. Jesus will allow Satan to influence people on earth until the time of Jesus' second coming/appearing.

Ephesians 1:15-23
For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. niv​

The kingdoms of the world are now held by SATAN. So in truth, Satan is reigning, NOT CHRIST. Jesus Christ WILL begin to reign when Satan loses and is cast down at the midpoint of the week

The evil kingdoms of the world are merely allowed by God to be held by Satan.

Romans 13:1
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. niv

​

Romans 13:4
For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. niv​

After Jesus' second coming/appearing He turns His kingdom over to His Father and all rule is ended except for God's.

1 Corinthians 15:21-28
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. niv
​

Jesus is reigning right now and He will continue to reign until He turns His kingdom over to His Father. Jesus defeats the Antichrist and causes the resurrection of the dead with the power of Jesus' second coming/appearing.

Make no mistake here, Jesus is reigning over the body of Christ on earth, for we belong to Him.

The people who came to life when Jesus died are the ones reigning with Jesus right now. These are the people who were part of the first resurrection.

You are MILES off from truth here. When Jesus died, there was a great earthquake, which God used to bring the dead bodies together and to the surface of the earth, but only of the ELDERS of the Old Testament. Perhaps 24 of them. After they were seen around town, then went to heaven and have been there ever since. Someone who went to heaven and had to come back because someone prayed, saw that Abraham looked different than others, and asked him. He replied that a few were resurrected when Jesus rose, so he already had his resurrection body.

.........

We will agree to disagree.

 

[jerry kelso]

The 70th week is ancient history. It concerned Jesus' lifetime (3/2 B.C.) until the destruction of Jerusalem (67-70 A.D.).



Jesus began His reign when He ascended into heaven after His resurrection. Jesus and His saints in heaven are reigning spiritually over all the world right now. Jesus will allow Satan to influence people on earth until the time of Jesus' second coming/appearing.

Ephesians 1:15-23
For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. niv​

The evil kingdoms of the world are merely allowed by God to be held by Satan.

Romans 13:1
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. niv

​

Romans 13:4
For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. niv​

After Jesus' second coming/appearing He turns His kingdom over to His Father and all rule is ended except for God's.

1 Corinthians 15:21-28
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. niv
​

Jesus is reigning right now and He will continue to reign until He turns His kingdom over to His Father. Jesus defeats the Antichrist and causes the resurrection of the dead with the power of Jesus' second coming/appearing.



We will agree to disagree.

jan001,

1. There is no scripture that says saints reign from heaven right now. In what way is Christ reigning from heaven? He is supposed to reign in a christian's heart. We are being trained right now through our sufferings right now because if we suffer, we shall reign. This is no present time reigning in the physical kingdom. We are in a war against spiritual wickedness etc. but spiritual warfare is not the same as the physical reign where the first 1000 years will be Israel becoming the head of the nations and the saints ruling around in different positions on earth.

2. Peter and Paul talked about the kingdom reign on earth as well as John the Revelator and never put it in the context of Christ and his saints ruling from heaven down to earth through believers without the kingdoms of the world being ruled physically by Christ and his theocracy. And yet you want to say we are in the millennial kingdom which doesn't match up. The millennial kingdom is also related to the restitution of all things which Peter mentioned in the book of Acts. He even mentioned about what Joel said about the pouring of the Holy Spirit being a sign of the end times but not a fulfillment because if you read Joel creation has to be free of the curse.

3. There is no scripture to show that Christ and the saints rule from heaven. There is no scripture to prove that the spiritual rule against wickedness in the church age has anything to do with the millennial kingdom. There is no scripture to prove that the 1000 years is in the church age with no kingdoms physically subdued on earth and no curse that is not being lifted. There is no context in the scripture to prove in the total and complete picture that the 1000 years is here right now and that we go into the Kingdom of God all in all instead of the first 1000 years to rid sin and rebellion of the rebels who are deceived and revolt before they are destroyed by fire out of heaven which is different from the battle of Armageddon which is right before the Millennial kingdom. The Kingdom of God all in all is different than the Day of the Lord when Christ will rule and reign with his saints literally on earth.

4. JESUS HAS TO RULE AND REIGN UNTIL DEATH IS DESTROYED FOR HIM TO GIVE THE KINGDOM BACK TO GOD THE FATHER. READ 1 CORINTHIANS 15:28. PSALM 2:9; JESUS WILL RULE WITH A ROD OF IRON AND SO WILL SAINTS (REVELATION 2:26-27) UNTIL DEATH IS PHYSICALLY DONE AWAY WITH ON EARTH (1 CORINTHIANS 15:24-25) BECAUSE DEATH WAS OVERCOME SPIRITUALLY AT THE CROSS. REVELATION 1:18. Jerry Kelso

 

[iamlamad]

The first resurrection was when Jesus Christ died on the cross. It is finished.

It is impossible for there to be another first resurrection. Parentheses should be used in order to correctly understand the passage. Many Bible translators neglected to use parentheses and so the true meaning which was intended by the author is not easily understood.

Revelation 20:4-6
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. niv​

An easier way to understand the meaning of the original author would be:

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. ​

The rest of the dead will not resurrect until Jesus' second coming/appearing which is at the end of time when the thousand years are over. The "thousand years" is a figure of speech for an unknown quantity, in this case an unknown quantity of time. Psalm 50:10

The second resurrection occurs at the sound of the last trumpet. At the sound of the last trumpet, Jesus defeats the Antichrist with the power of His second coming/ appearing.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” niv

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. niv

2 Timothy 4:1-2
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. niv

2 Thessalonians 2:7-10
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. niv
​

Jesus Christ defeats the Antichrist with the power and glory of His second coming.

2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. niv

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. niv
​

There is no pre-trib rapture. Jesus will be coming to earth only once more and He will defeat the Antichrist with the splendor/power and glory of His coming and this will be at the end of time. This second coming of Jesus causes the resurrection of all the dead and consequently the white throne judgment.


The second resurrection happens shortly before the great white throne judgment of all people.

This second resurrection occurs when the faithful still living on earth meet Jesus and His angels and His saints in the air. As they rise to meet Jesus, their mortal bodies are changed into resurrected bodies. All the faithful people who died between the first resurrection and this second resurrection will receive their resurrected bodies shortly before they descend to meet the faithful on earth who will rise to meet them in the air. The evildoers who do not rise to meet Jesus will also receive their resurrected bodies at this same time.




All the dead physical bodies in the graves, both the bodies of the good people and also the bodies of the evil people, will rise at the sound of the last trumpet at the time of the second and final resurrection.

The 7th trumpet of Revelation 11 is now history. After Jesus ascended into heaven, He and His saints began their 1000 year spiritual reign. The 42 months was the siege of the Romans against the Jews in 67-70 A.D. This was God's vengeance against the unbelieving Jews who rejected His Son Jesus Christ who was sent from God to be their own Messiah.



There is no pre-trib rapture. Jesus does not return to earth again until the sound of the last trumpet. Jesus does not return to earth again until it is time to defeat the Antichrist. Jesus does not return to earth again until it is time for the resurrection of the dead. Jesus does not return to earth again until it is time for Him to judge all people at the great white throne.

You did well in that there are two resurrections that will include all of humanity: the chief or primary resurrection that includes all righteous, and the second or second death resurrection that will include all sinners. Since there is and ever will be ONLY ONE resurrection for the righteous, then Jesus was the firstfruits of the first or primary resurrection. Those whom Jesus called up with Him - the elders of the Old Covenant - would be the second fruits, third fruits etc of the primary or chief resurrection - the one the KJV calls "the first." Then, the dead in Christ will make the next wave of resurrections in the first or primary resurrection. Finally those beheaded by the beast will be resurrected. All of these will be a part of this chief of resurrections for the righteous.

AS for your bolded print, you can be wrong if you want to be - and it appears you do. There WILL BE a pretrib rapture, but since you don't believe in it, you will not partake in it. Therefore, GET READY for hard days are coming for you. You will be left behind to face both the BEAST and the wrath of God. Oh, God did not set your appointment with His wrath - YOU SET IT YOURSELF by not believing that He is coming first FOR His saints. You will be OVERCOME: both Daniel and John have told you this - yet you don't believe it. I would HIGHLY recommend you camp out in 1 Thes. 5 until you understand Paul's TIMING.
His timing is that the pretrib rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Not the entire day, but the BEGINNING, right where John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come." That day will come the moment the dead in Christ rise, but those alive in Christ will be caught up so that the sudden destruction start of the Day of His wrath will not affect them: they will get 'Salvation" or raptured, while those left behind are caught in the sudden destruction. The righteous are raptured out because God will have set NO APPOINTMENTS for His bride. The appointments are for those left behind. The wrath is for those who are left behind.

You escape reality in yet another direction: the white throne judgment will not be until AFTER Jesus has returned to earth and reigned with a rod of iron for a thousand years. So you are AT LEAST a thousand years off. You escape reality and truth yet again, for the 1000 year reign is FUTURE, not history. How in the world did you get SO FAR OFF from truth?

The 7th trumpet of Revelation 11 is now history.

You missed it BIG TIME here. If the 7th is history, the ALL the trumpets are history! WAKE UP! NONE Of the trumpets have ever happened. Did you not know, NO PRETERIST HAS EVER found proof that even one of the trumpet judgments have come - for the very simply reason, THEY ARE ALL FUTURE. Have you ever seen a flying scorpion locust with teeth like a lion? Of course you have not, for NO ONE has seen them - for the simple fact: THEY ARE FUTURE.

It is impossible for there to be another first resurrection.

Of course not! This one and only PRIMARY resurrection covers ALL the righteous from Jesus to the very last one beheaded. By the way, we understand the parenthesis.

The "thousand years" is a figure of speech for an unknown quantity, in this case an unknown quantity of time.

Are you telling us that God cannot cause someone to write "one thousand" and NOT MEAN IT? You really need to rethink this. Only wolves in sheep's clothing that do not believe His word - or someone that simply does not understand Revelation - would say this is a figure of speech.

The second resurrection occurs at the sound of the last trumpet.

WOW! Are you ever mixed up! Paul told us HIS RAPTURE - the one HE wrote about, would come "at the last trump." And this trumpet will come just before the 6th seal in Revelation, as a PRETRIB trumpet calling up the dead in Christ. WAKE UP! The second resurrection will come AFTER the 1000 years you refuse to believe in.

Sorry, the rest of your post is so totally off base I refuse to comment further.

 

[iamlamad]

Death is destroyed at sound of the last trumpet. All the dead are resurrected. Every person receives an immortal body after the last trumpet sounds. There will be no more death. Immortal bodies cannot die. Each person will then receive his judgment at the great white throne.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” niv

Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. niv
​

These two Scripture passages depict the events of the day of Jesus' second coming/appearing.

Death is destroyed at sound of the last trumpet. All the dead are resurrected. Every person receives an immortal body after the last trumpet sounds. There will be no more death. Immortal bodies cannot die. Each person will then receive his judgment at the great white throne.

This one quote proves you know absolutely NOTHING about John's chronology. What did you do? Separate the book of Revelation by writing each verse on a small piece of paper, but all the pieces in a big barrel, stirring them up thoroughly, then draw them out one by one to determine John's chronology? You would be just about as accurate if you did it that way. Maybe by chance you would have got a couple of verses in the right order.

AXIOM on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE PROVEN WRONG.

Your theory therefore is immediately suspect and will certainly be proven wrong. John was not mixed up in his chronology. Neither was the Holy Spirit. John NUMBERED many things to show that He wrote things IN ORDER. They were numbered for people just like you that imagine you must rearrange. NO REARRANGING is necessary! God gave it to us in the exact order it will happen.

Please allow me to make a suggestion: Throw all your end time beliefs into file 13, and START OVER with no preconceptions. Form your theories by EXACTLY what is written and in the same order as written. You will be MILES closer to the truth.

 

[JLB777]

Revelation 20:4 says,

"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

This passage says nothing about Jesus coming to this earth and establishing a worldly Kingdom at Jerusalem. Those that teach this are duty-bound to prove their doctrine with scripture.

Did you know that the phrase "thousand year reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture? Neither does the term "millenium." Yet, the doctrine is prevalent among so many denominations.

Where does this passage mention Christ's second coming?

Where does it mention a reign on earth?

Where does it mention Christ on earth?

Those who believe in a future earthly reign of Christ on earth for a thousand years make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made -- they were not satisfied with a spiritual Kingdom; they had to have a literal, worldly, physical Kingdom.

The truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign for a thousand years some time in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity. We do not have to wait for His Kingdom to come sometime in the future before He starts reigning over our lives, for Christ's Kingdom is here now, and He desires that we reign with Him now, whether we choose to recognize it or not.

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 20:1-6


And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


The phrase "they lived and reigned with Christ" is the first key to understanding the context which you have completely ignored, for whatever reason.


Lived is a direct reference to the resurrection of the dead in Christ... as the previous sentence in verse 4 says;
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God...



This and this alone is all any person who seeks the truth would need to understand that this is a reference to the resurrection of the dead in Christ, that occurs at His Coming.

A study of all scriptures that pertains to the resurrection of the dead in Christ and His Coming, reveals the clear and irrefutable truth.


However, just for you, we will go a little further, and continue to examine the context, which for whatever reason, you have completely ignored.


The word "Then" in verse 1 of Revelation 20.


Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.


By saying "Then", the scripture is indicating a continuation from Chapter 19.


11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 19:11-21


This context shows the armies of heaven following Jesus, from heaven.... to where?

Earth!

The kings of the earth and their armies are destroyed by Jesus Christ, at His coming.


Scriptures about His Coming -

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

and again


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


and again


31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Matthew 25:31-32


He comes once more, a second time; that's why it's called the second coming -


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


His Coming is directed related to the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24


...Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:24



And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


These resurrected ones, "lived' and reigned with Christ, on earth, in Jerusalem, whereby He will be seated on His throne of glory. Matthew 25:31


Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:3-5


It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.
Zechariah 14:6-9



“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him... in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.


Read it!!!


The Lord shall be King over all the earth, from Jerusalem.



JLB

 

[iamlamad]

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 20:1-6


And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


The phrase "they lived and reigned with Christ" is the first key to understanding the context which you have completely ignored, for whatever reason.


Lived is a direct reference to the resurrection of the dead in Christ... as the previous sentence in verse 4 says;
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God...



This and this alone is all any person who seeks the truth would need to understand that this is a reference to the resurrection of the dead in Christ, that occurs at His Coming.

A study of all scriptures that pertains to the resurrection of the dead in Christ and His Coming, reveals the clear and irrefutable truth.


However, just for you, we will go a little further, and continue to examine the context, which for whatever reason, you have completely ignored.


The word "Then" in verse 1 of Revelation 20.


Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.


By saying "Then", the scripture is indicating a continuation from Chapter 19.


11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 19:11-21


This context shows the armies of heaven following Jesus, from heaven.... to where?

Earth!

The kings of the earth and their armies are destroyed by Jesus Christ, at His coming.


Scriptures about His Coming -

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

and again


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


and again


31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Matthew 25:31-32


He comes once more, a second time; that's why it's called the second coming -


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


His Coming is directed related to the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24


...Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:24



And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


These resurrected ones, "lived' and reigned with Christ, on earth, in Jerusalem, whereby He will be seated on His throne of glory. Matthew 25:31


Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:3-5


It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.
Zechariah 14:6-9



“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him... in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.


Read it!!!


The Lord shall be King over all the earth, from Jerusalem.



JLB

JLB, that was VERY GOOD. The only thing I can disagree with is that the second time He will come will be pretrib as written in 1 Thes. 4 & 5, and when He comes WITH His resurrected saints, it will really be His THIRD coming. Of course the bible does not mention "third," but we know how to count. Of course the bible never even says "second coming" either.

 

[ewq1938]

I have heard this statement before, from others. There is just one little problem.

For about 1800 years of Church history nobody preached the pretrib doctrine.

That's not true. Pre-trib has been around since the time of Paul. It just was never that popular until Darby. It is a false doctrine however.

 

[JLB777]

JLB, that was VERY GOOD. The only thing I can disagree with is that the second time He will come will be pretrib as written in 1 Thes. 4 & 5, and when He comes WITH His resurrected saints, it will really be His THIRD coming. Of course the bible does not mention "third," but we know how to count. Of course the bible never even says "second coming" either.

I showed that the Phrase from Revelation 20:4 "lived and reigned" was a direct reference to the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which happens at His Coming.


Let's continue the study of the resurrection and His Coming from 1 Thessalonian 4.


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18


Five Key Points to consider:

• ...even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

The saints that have died and are in heaven with Jesus will return with Him at the gathering of His people, to receive their new immortal bodies at the resurrection.

• ...the dead in Christ will rise first.

Those who have died and return with Jesus will receive their resurrected bodies first, as their dead bodies will rise from where they have been buried.

• ...Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

Then after the dead in Christ have received their resurrected bodies, those who are alive and remain will receive their transformed bodies that will be immortal, in which these will be caught up together with those who had died and returned with Christ.

• ...in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

At this point the dead in Christ, with their new immortal bodies, and the raptured ones with their new immortal bodies will all be together with the Lord in the air, in which all will have been Gathered together to Christ Jesus.

• ...thus we shall always be with the Lord.

All will have immortal bodies just like the Lord, in which we will all be together with Him and remain with Him wherever He is. At this point, after all will receive their new immortal bodies, and are with the Lord, and will remain with the Lord, we must understand where it is that Jesus is coming to from Heaven. For we will be with Him

Zechariah 14 -

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem...
Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, s He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two...Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.


Please review these five key points and let's then discuss the timing of the resurrection/rapture, as they are one event that occurs at His Coming.



JLB

 

[BABerean2]

That's not true. Pre-trib has been around since the time of Paul. It just was never that popular until Darby. It is a false doctrine however.

The following article shows it is a recent doctrine and also shows how some have attempted to hide this fact.


Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

 

[JLB777]

That's not true. Pre-trib has been around since the time of Paul. It just was never that popular until Darby. It is a false doctrine however.

Let's continue the study of the resurrection and His Coming from 1 Thessalonian 4.


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18


Five Key Points to consider:

• ...even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

The saints that have died and are in heaven with Jesus will return with Him at the gathering of His people, to receive their new immortal bodies at the resurrection.

• ...the dead in Christ will rise first.

Those who have died and return with Jesus will receive their resurrected bodies first, as their dead bodies will rise from where they have been buried.

• ...Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

Then after the dead in Christ have received their resurrected bodies, those who are alive and remain will receive their transformed bodies that will be immortal, in which these will be caught up together with those who had died and returned with Christ.

• ...in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

At this point the dead in Christ, with their new immortal bodies, and the raptured ones with their new immortal bodies will all be together with the Lord in the air, in which all will have been Gathered together to Christ Jesus.

• ...thus we shall always be with the Lord.

All will have immortal bodies just like the Lord, in which we will all be together with Him and remain with Him wherever He is. At this point, after all will receive their new immortal bodies, and are with the Lord, and will remain with the Lord, we mustunderstand where it is that Jesus is coming to from Heaven. For we will be with Him

Zechariah 14 -

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem...
Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, s He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two...Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.


Please review these five key points and let's then discuss the timing of the resurrection/rapture, as they are one event that occurs at His Coming.




JLB

 

[redleghunter]

Let's continue the study of the resurrection and His Coming from 1 Thessalonian 4.


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18


Five Key Points to consider:

• ...even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

The saints that have died and are in heaven with Jesus will return with Him at the gathering of His people, to receive their new immortal bodies at the resurrection.

• ...the dead in Christ will rise first.

Those who have died and return with Jesus will receive their resurrected bodies first, as their dead bodies will rise from where they have been buried.

• ...Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

Then after the dead in Christ have received their resurrected bodies, those who are alive and remain will receive their transformed bodies that will be immortal, in which these will be caught up together with those who had died and returned with Christ.

• ...in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

At this point the dead in Christ, with their new immortal bodies, and the raptured ones with their new immortal bodies will all be together with the Lord in the air, in which all will have been Gathered together to Christ Jesus.

• ...thus we shall always be with the Lord.

All will have immortal bodies just like the Lord, in which we will all be together with Him and remain with Him wherever He is. At this point, after all will receive their new immortal bodies, and are with the Lord, and will remain with the Lord, we mustunderstand where it is that Jesus is coming to from Heaven. For we will be with Him

Zechariah 14 -

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem...
Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, s He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two...Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.


Please review these five key points and let's then discuss the timing of the resurrection/rapture, as they are one event that occurs at His Coming.




JLB

Great dialogue. Have to catch up. I like your approach.

 

[toLiJC]

Revelation 20:4 says,

"...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

This passage says nothing about Jesus coming to this earth and establishing a worldly Kingdom at Jerusalem. Those that teach this are duty-bound to prove their doctrine with scripture.

Did you know that the phrase "thousand year reign of Christ" does not appear anywhere in scripture? Neither does the term "millenium." Yet, the doctrine is prevalent among so many denominations.

Where does this passage mention Christ's second coming?

Where does it mention a reign on earth?

Where does it mention Christ on earth?

Those who believe in a future earthly reign of Christ on earth for a thousand years make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made -- they were not satisfied with a spiritual Kingdom; they had to have a literal, worldly, physical Kingdom.

The truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign for a thousand years some time in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity. We do not have to wait for His Kingdom to come sometime in the future before He starts reigning over our lives, for Christ's Kingdom is here now, and He desires that we reign with Him now, whether we choose to recognize it or not.

there are not a few verses showing this, here are some of them:

Matthew 5:5 "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.",

Daniel 7:11-12 "I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."

the "fourth beast" is the (kingdom of) spiritual lawlessness/iniquity/wickedness, the remaining three "beasts" are the mental/intellectual activity, the economic activity, and the physical activity (including on earth) in this world - their satanic dominion will be taken away together with the abolition of the spiritual iniquity

Blessings

 

[Jan001]

I was saying Amen the whole way until you got to the part about the 7th trumpet.

The wrath of God and the Judgment of the dead occur at the 7th trump (Rev. 11:18), which is the last trump found in 1st Cor. chapter 15.

The seventh trumpet is not the last trumpet according to my understanding. The seven trumpets pertain to God's judgment and destruction of the unbelieving Israelites/Jews, their temple, and their city. Jesus began His reign with His saints as soon as He ascended into heaven when God seated Him at His right hand. This prophecy which concerned the wrath of God against the unbelieving Jews who rejected God's Son was fulfilled by the Roman armies in 67 A.D. - 70 A.D. Hopefully this wrath brought the unbelieving Jews to remembrance of God and repentance for their sins before they died.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” nkjv

Mark 16:19
So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. nkjv

Acts 5:30-32
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” nkjv

1 Peter 3:21-22
There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. nkjv​

1 Corinthians 15:20-26
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. nkjv

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power. nkjv
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Jesus conquered physical death by His own resurrection from the dead. Jesus will destroy physical death forever for all people with His second coming/appearing. Until then, the souls of the saints who die ascend into heaven to be with God. These saints rule spiritually with Jesus in heaven and they will rule in heaven with Him until it is time for Jesus' second coming/appearing. After that all rule except for God's rule ends.

Jesus Christ was made alive 2000 years ago and He is the firstfruits. Jesus will make alive/resurrect all other people at the end of time with the power of His second coming/appearing.

Look at Rev. 10:7. The Church is the "mystery". It ends at the 7th trumpet.

There is no 8th trumpet. Therefore, the 7th trump has to be the last.

The mystery which is revealed is the salvation of Israel with the Gentiles in the New Covenant.

The eighth trumpet is perhaps the last trumpet since the seventh announces the judgment/wrath of God which will be coming upon the unbelieving Jews in 67 A.D. - 70 A.D.

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[Jan001]

No, Rev 20 does not support such an errant theory. The first of two resurrections in Rev 20 are a group of people who were beheaded for refusing the mark of the beast. They make up what Rev 20 calls the first resurrection. Rev 20 does not mention or take place at the cross. Such simplistic errors reveal the errant nature of Amil.

This is apocalyptic fanciful language and is not meant to be literal. The people who were beheaded for refusing the mark of the beast simply means that these people remained faithful to God until they died. They kept/obeyed God's commandments until death.

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. nkjv​

 

[Jan001]

That's known as Universal salvation and it, like Amil, is a false doctrine. All will not receive immortal bodies and death will exist long after the 7th trump until death itself is cast into the lake of fire:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I am not talking about universal salvation. The people in hell will suffer forever with both their immortal bodies and their immortal souls/spirits intact. Neither body nor soul/spirit can be destroyed by the fires of hell.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. nkjv

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