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Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by katiemygirl, Jul 13, 2015.

  1. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No it isn't. It means to die by having your head cut off.

    John was beheaded, Stephen was not.


    No that is wrong also. The mark of the beast is described by John as happening in the tribulation when the Antichrist makes everyone take it. Staying faithful to God and His commandments until death is just that, a Christian dying in good standing. Amill redefines everything to change the meaning and thus we have this new doctrine which scripture, unadulterated, knows nothing about.
    .


    The first sentence is true but the second is not. Rev 20 says there is a thousand years separating the two resurrections.


    The verse does not say all are resurrected at the same time just no resurrections happens until the second coming. Scripture states the dead in Christ rise first so the dead not in Christ cannot and will not rise with the dead in Christ. I assume you have no explanation about that? No Amil has been able to accept the dead in Christ rise first and claim all the dead rise at that same time.
     
  2. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rev shows all the trumpets that are left and there are only 7. I don't know if any have sounded but the 6th is the trib and the 7th is the second coming and neither of those events have happened.


     
  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So? The burning bush wasn't hell either.



    Wrong. There are no worms at all.

    No one survives the lake of fire. The wicked do not have eternal life, only the saved do. The second death is complete dearth not life so they can live forever suffering.
     
  4. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    with so many words here you actually said nothing (more) useful, neither did you add anything better to the hitherto prevailing christian tradition, which unfortunately has actually turned out to be not a little vain, the word of faith may have been great, but there was a lot of incomprehension and maybe also misunderstanding

    to meditate is kind of inadvisable, because Jesus does not in vain say "when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost."(Mark 13:11)

    Daniel talks about the four main aspects of the iniquity/lawlessness/wickedness in both chapters(2nd and 7th), the clay+iron, the brass, the silver, and the gold in the 2nd chapter, and the four beasts in the 7th chapter - from this point of view it is about (the) same things in both chapters, but in the 2nd chapter there is talk of how even one man could turn out to be a cause of great problems, complications, and troubles, namely, if it commits great spiritual iniquity/lawlessness/wickedness, moreover, no matter who it is/may be, i mean it could be anyone i.e. let's say it is not known who exactly, but the truth is that there have been many spiritual lawbreakers/violators including a lot of humans that have turned themselves into angels of satan through the process of yoga/transcendental meditation, and resurrected in the "darkness" like the Lord, Jesus, Who has been resurrected in the "Light", so, it is not said that only one man brought the sin and the death in the world, but it is said that there were many who did this and that the sin and the death could enter into and settle down in the world by many spiritual lawbreakers/violators i.e. people that commit great spiritual iniquity/lawlessness/wickedness, furthermore, this is the most discussed topic in the biblical scriptures, that's why there is talk of repentance, first of all, in (the) faith i.e. for the believers/worshipers/clerics, and the true Lord God (i again emphasize Lord God, not just God or Lord) is the stone that removes the evil from the sinner(s) - remember how He did cast the devilish spirits out of the possessed, even by denouncing the scribes and pharisees (i.e. the great spiritual lawbreakers/violators in the then israel) with the Word of His Father the Heavenly God

    if the sin entered into the world, and even managed to permanently settle down in it, by one spiritual lawbreaker/violator in the beginning, and hereby the death also manifested so, then what would happen if there are millions of such people?!, and(that's why) this is the main warning of the Holy Scripture, namely: at least do not commit and don't let there be spiritual iniquity/lawlessness/wickedness in the world, and for that reason the first Commandments are strictly spiritual, such as: "you should not have other gods/lords(christs) besides Me (says He, the true One)"(Exodus 20:3), "you should not create a spiritual theory or a spiritual practice by yourself(-selves) in reference to any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth(i.e. in the occult), you should not revere such things (even if they were/are created by someone else, not by you), nor serve them"(Exodus 20:4-6), "you should not use the faith for unclean/self-interested purposes"(Exodus 20:7), "you should not defile the creature/creation/faith, in principle you are free to do everything you want whereby you do not cause evil to your neighbor, but when it is time to exercise/practice (the) faith, do not omit to keep the creature/creation/faith holy (i.e. at least do not commit spiritual iniquity/lawlessness/wickedness), because the true Lord God made all the universal creation in six days, and then He has against His will/of necessity fallen into a state of sleepiness(half-sleep) since the seventh day, therefore He blessed the time during which He will be in that state and sanctified the creature/creation/faith (so that the spiritual servants might also sanctify it and wake Him up)"(Exodus 20:8-11)...

    Blessings
     
  5. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Please quote chapter and verse that Says Antichrist makes people take the mark of the beast.

    Like the way you are redefining the "Beast of Revelation" into "antichrist" where scripture, unadultrated, knows nothing about it?

    And no Dispy has been able to accept that the dead in Christ rise first and claim that the living are caught up at the same time.
     
  6. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Antichrist is called the false prophet in Rev. He is also the second beast, and is found in Rev 13.



    That's not true. Just because John uses Antichrist in one book but a different name in another doesn't mean they aren't the same person.


    The living are not caught up at the same time. And anyone that claims all the dead rise at the same time is in direct contradiction to scripture since the dead in Christ are the first of the dead to rise.
     
  7. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    The 6th is the trib...

    Surely you know better than this! Some of your answers are right on. How then can you be so far off here?
    What do you mean by "the trib?" Do you mean the 7th week? Or do you mean the days of GREAT tribulation that Jesus spoke of?


    If you mean by "trib" the 70th week, it begins with the 7th seal and ends with the 7th vial, so "the trib" includes ALL the trumpets and ALL the vials.

    If you mean the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, they will not even begin until Rev. chapter 15.

    Next, the 7th trumpet is CERTAINLY not the 2nd coming or the 3rd coming. The 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT of the week. Much happens then, one of which is Satan cast down, and the kingdoms of the world taken from him and given to Jesus Christ the Lord. But there is NO COMING at the 7th trumpet.
     
  8. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Then WHY did Jesus say "where the worm dies not?" Was He joking?
     
  9. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    What do you mean by "survive?" The human spirit and soul will exist as long as God exists. They will indeed be tortured forever, just as the righteous will enjoy the blessings of the Lord forever.
     
  10. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    You will be added to my list of people I will ignore. All you have is strawmen and red herrings.
     
  11. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    man, i do not judge/doom any person, but what if we believe in something of ourselves(the humans)?!, why must we deceive ourselves that we can ostensibly change the infinitely existing word/truth of God when it is unchangeable?!, why must we doom those nations by prophesying non-salvation and destruction/calamity for them instead of praying/working for their lifetime purgation?!

    Matthew 15:11-20 "that which cometh out of the mouth(i.e. out of the mouth of the inimically prophesying worshipers/clerics), this defileth a man..... those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart(i.e. from the human spiritual/religious tradition and activity); and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man:",

    Revelation 16:13-14 "I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

    so we have no profit in ordering non-salvation and destruction/calamity for our neighbor(s), also because the reward in God the Father would not be (so) attainable

    Matthew 5:46 "if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?",

    1 John 5:15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

    Blessings
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Scripture nowhere teaches this.
    Like you said, "[people can't] redefine everything to change the meaning and thus we have this new doctrine which scripture, unadulterated, knows nothing about."

    Again, scripture, unadulterated, knows NOTHING about antichrist of 1 and 2 John being the same entity as the False Prophet or Beast of Revelation.

    Such is purely from the inventions and traditions of men.

    Show me the Scriptural teaching that they are the same person.

    You can't just invent a connection in the absence of any scriptural teaching of a connection, for "thus we have this new doctrine which scripture, unadulterated, knows nothing about."
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
  13. Jan001

    Jan001 Newbie Supporter

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    The temple in Jerusalem had to be still there in Jerusalem when the Book of Revelation was written so that John could obey God's command to physically measure it. We know that Jerusalem, the temple, and its worshipers were all destroyed before the end of 70 A.D. so this Book had to have been written before 70 A.D.

    Revelation 11:1-2
    I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. niv​

    God commanded John to not measure the outer court because the Gentiles (Roman armies) would trample on Jerusalem for 42 months. John was not in Jerusalem during the 42 month trampling of Jerusalem by the Roman armies so he had to have measured the temple before 67 A.D. Therefore, the Book of Revelation was written prior to 67 A.D.

    Revelation 19 is partly all of the above. Babylon (the great city Jerusalem where our Lord was crucified) was literally destroyed by the Roman armies during their 42 month siege. Revelation 19 was fulfilled in the first century.


     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    On Revelation 11 and the measuring of the Temple? That is quite a stretch. Ezekiel also witnessed a measuring of the Temple after it was destroyed by Babylon. John's vision was in Heaven. I think this is a ridiculous stretch to provide evidence for an earlier writing of Revelation.

    Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 do not compute with preterism at all. In both accounts The Lord is destroying the enemies of Jerusalem and not destroying the Jews. So both references must be yet future as God did not deliver the Jews in Jerusalem from the Romans.

    In Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14, we see God dealing directly against the nations who are against Jerusalem.

    How does the above figure into your historical context?
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    On another matter...Your profile shows you are Catholic. How can you adhere to preterism when being a faithful Catholic?

    All the prophecies you put in the past are claimed by multiple church fathers as yet future. Irenaeus one of the earliest fathers to opine on Revelation and the Sermon on the Mount.
     
  16. Jan001

    Jan001 Newbie Supporter

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    Only one example is needed to prove that "a thousand" is sometimes symbolic.

    Do you believe that God owns only the cattle on just a thousand hills? I do not. I believe that God owns all the cattle on all the hills.

    Psalm 50:10
    for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills. niv

    2 Peter 3:8
    But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. niv
    There are no actual days in eternity where God is. Time does not exist. It is the everlasting present. This passage is meant to be symbolic. Peter is simply telling his brethren that they should not be concerned about knowing the exact day of Jesus' second coming.


    1 Thessalonians 5:1-3

    Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. niv
    Paul is telling his brethren that they should not be concerned about the time and date of Jesus' second coming. They should at all times be spiritually ready for His return.
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I've seen you mention the 6th seal quite often. What are your views on the first 5 seals and timing of them? I ask our of curiosity as I've seen some Messianic theologians opine the first 5 seals were opened over the centuries. I find that approach inconsistent. What are your thoughts?
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    From Daniel chapter 12:

    Daniel 12New King James Version (NKJV)


    12 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
    The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
    And there shall be a time of trouble,
    Such as never was since there was a nation,
    Even to that time.
    And at that time your people shall be delivered,
    Every one who is found written in the book.
    2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
    Some to everlasting life,
    Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    3 Those who are wise shall shine
    Like the brightness of the firmament,
    And those who turn many to righteousness
    Like the stars forever and ever.(NKJV)

    Everlasting is quite clear in this passage as it is in hundreds of other passages.
     
  19. Jan001

    Jan001 Newbie Supporter

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    The Book of Revelation is written in symbolic/spiritual language. It is not meant to be understood in a strictly literal manner.

    The destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians is recorded in two different ways:

    Spiritual/prophetic:

    Ezekiel 9:3-6
    Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the Lord called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side 4 and said to him, “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.” 5 As I listened, he said to the others, “Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, the mothers and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the old men who were in front of the temple. niv
    Historical:

    2 Chronicles 36:17
    He brought up against them the king of the Babylonians, who killed their young men with the sword in the sanctuary, and did not spare young men or young women, the elderly or the infirm. God gave them all into the hands of Nebuchadnezzar. niv​

    These are two records of the same event, but one shows a “mark on their foreheads” and the other one does not. Why aren't these written in the same way? They are not written in the same way because Ezekiel was a prophet and he recorded what he saw in a spiritual vision. The vision was about spiritual things and the “mark” was a spiritual mark. However, the author of 2 Chronicles was a historian and he recorded what was physically seen by the people who witnessed the actual event.

    In the Book of Revelation John is recording what he is seeing in a spiritual vision about spiritual matters. John is not writing as a historian but as a prophet.


    Man sees the outward appearance of a man, but God sees the spiritual reality of a man's heart. The mark is invisible to man and the seal of the Holy Spirit is invisible to man.

    2 Corinthians 1:21-22
    But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has commissioned us; 22 he has put his seal upon us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. rsv​

    Jesus only comes to earth two times. He came the first time 2000 years ago and He will come again for His second appearance at the end of time so that He can judge everyone at the great white throne judgment.

    Hebrews 9:27-28
    And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. rsv​
     
  20. Jan001

    Jan001 Newbie Supporter

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    It was future when John wrote it. However, it was to happen soon and it did happen in 67-70 A.D. The first 19 chapters of the Book of Revelation are past history. You attempt to make spiritual things into literal things. Jesus also prophesied that all these things would happen to this generation, the generation of people present in 30 A.D. And, it did happen exactly as Jesus and John prophesied. Jerusalem, its temple, and the unbelieving Jews living there were all destroyed as punishment from God because these Jews refused to acknowledge God's Son Jesus as their Savior/Messiah.

    Revelation 1:1
    [ Prologue ] The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, niv​

    We will agree to disagree. :)
     
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