The ten commandments Old covenant, and the law "done away" and "abolished" as paul said

[BobRyan]

Nope. Jesus gave us a NEW commandment....guess you missed it.

You mean - He said this?

=========================

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Notice that it is identified as "Moses said" and as "The Word of God"

AND as the "Commandment of God"??[/QUOTE]
=========================================

or is it this?

Matt

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

===================

or is it something not even found at all in Acts 15??

 

[Meowzltov]

Those epistles were written to Christian churches comprised of both Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. It is you who are mistaken, tragically so.

Do you think that my bishop ever addresses the two Jews at my parish as Hebrew Catholics? No, he has NEVER done so. His letters are always to the majority. In the same way, so were Paul's letters.

 

[Steeno7]

Do you think that my bishop ever addresses the two Jews at my parish as Hebrew Catholics? No, he has NEVER done so. His letters are always to the majority. In the same way, so were Paul's letters.

If you have a problem with your bishop, take it up with him. Perhaps he, unlike yourself, but like Paul, understands that in Christ, God has made one man out of the two, and sees no need to try to separate and divide Gods people by their ethnicity.

 

[Steeno7]

You mean - He said this?

=========================

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Notice that it is identified as "Moses said" and as "The Word of God"

AND as the "Commandment of God"??
=========================================

or is it this?

Matt

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

or is it something not even found at all in Acts 15??

Nope. I mean the NEW commandment Jesus gave to us.

 

[Meowzltov]

Perhaps he, unlike yourself, but like Paul, understands that in Christ, God has made one man out of the two, and sees no need to try to separate and divide Gods people by their ethnicity.

Then you admit that Paul addressed the majority and did not include any remarks to the Jewish minority?

 

[Steeno7]

Then you admit that Paul addressed the majority and did not include any remarks to the Jewish minority?

LOL. You're clueless.

 

[ErezY]

Then you admit that Paul addressed the majority and did not include any remarks to the Jewish minority?

What do you make of this quote from Paul about how the promise came to us?

Romans 4
13 It is clear, then, that God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was not based on obedience to God’s law, but on the new relationship with God that comes by faith.​

That verse seems to put a spear through both arguments here. First, the division, God promised to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants (Israel, which includes Judah (Jews)). All nations are given to 'be served' our father Abraham and his children Israel. A kingdom of priests, a tree of life given for the healing of the nations. The irrevocable calling of Israel. The reformed replacement theology that permeates this subforum removes Israel's calling and position, replacing themselves with God's chosen people. Second, This promise was NOT based on obedience to Torah commands, but on the new relationship with God that comes by faith in Messiah. Messiah is the key, the glue that holds together TWO distinct peoples as one, that unlocks the mystery about our union. And this union is NEVER based on our obedience to Torah commands, but faith. Which is proved by our actions. Not mere words.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

No because Paul calls the 10 Cs the law in Romans 7.

bugkiller

Well there's the law and then there's the Law.
There are all kinds of ordinances in the Bible- the Adamic laws, the Noahide laws, and so on. The 'Law' was Mosaic, but the Commandments are altogether made separate from the rest. In other words, there was a reason they are carved in stone from God and the rest not.

The Ten Commandments cannot be rejected because what they state are the pillars of everything Jesus taught morally.
People who deny this just have no idea what they are even looking at upon these things.

 

[Steeno7]

Well there's the law and then there's the Law.
There are all kinds of ordinances in the Bible- the Adamic laws, the Noahide laws, and so on. The 'Law' was Mosaic, but the Commandments are altogether made separate from the rest. In other words, there was a reason they are carved in stone from God and the rest not.

The Ten Commandments cannot be rejected because what they state are the pillars of everything Jesus taught morally.
People who deny this just have no idea what they are even looking at upon these things.

Then why does the apostle Paul specifically list in Romans 7:6-7 "coveting", one of the big ten, as that which those in Christ have died to and been released from, so that, we serve in the New way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code?

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Then why does the apostle Paul specifically list in Romans 7:6-7 "coveting", one of the big ten, as that which those in Christ have died to and been released from, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code?

The moral teachings of the New Covenant are all within the Commandents. I would like for you to point to any one of them and say 'the apostles do not teach this as sinful'.

It is not rocket science. The Ten Commandments are the pillars of morality.

 

[Steeno7]

The moral teachings of the New Covenant are all within the Commandents. I would like for you to point to any one of them and say 'the apostles do not teach this as sinful'.

It is not rocket science. The Ten Commandments are the pillars of morality.

You failed to answer my question.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

You failed to answer my question.

If you live in Christ, coveting is not existent- one is freed from the shackles of such. Totally different message going on there.

It is also taught that adultery is a sin, just as thievery, murder, idolatry, and everything else stated in the Commandments. Paul even implies that such things can demerit one's salvation.

 

[nomadictheist]

Nope. Jesus gave us a NEW commandment....guess you missed it.

Just curious here... Are you implying that the introduction of a new commandment (that we love one another as He loved us) negates all former commandments? Because there's certainly nothing to that effect in the text... Jesus doesn't say anywhere that the new commandment replaces any former commandments given. Nor is there any reason given in the New Testament to believe that.

Jesus said that anyone who breaks a commandment - even one of the least commandments - and teaches others to do so will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven. Does this carry less weight because he introduced a new commandment?

I've seen a lot of references to Paul, specifically where he talks about being freed from the law. There seems to be a little confusion as to what Paul is talking about. When we were bound by the law, the only possible ending for us was death. Not a single one of us can follow the law perfectly. In fact, Paul spends time making that point before talking about freedom from the law of sin and death. The law of Moses, as it is sometimes called, couldn't save anybody. It could only bind them.

The law of the Spirit - the fulfillment of the entirety of the sacrificial law - was able to save us. So through Jesus' death we were set free from the law of Moses. That doesn't mean that the law of Moses is no longer what's right. It means that we are no longer bound by it to an end of certain death.

Paul says in this same chapter (Romans 8) that those who have Jesus Christ abiding in them do not live according to the flesh - that is sin. They abide by the Spirit and the law of God, whom we are to love by His own commandment.

And how do we love God? We keep His commandments? (1 John).

How do we love each other? Well, according to Jesus, the "law and the prophets" are all predicated on us loving God and each other... So it would appear that the law tells us how to do that.

 

[Steeno7]

If you live in Christ, coveting is not existent- one is freed from the shackles of such. Totally different message going on there.

It is also taught that adultery is a sin, just as thievery, murder, idolatry, and everything else stated in the Commandments. Paul even implies that such things can demerit one's salvation.

You still haven't answered the question asked.

 

[Steeno7]

Just curious here... Are you implying that the introduction of a new commandment (that we love one another as He loved us) negates all former commandments? Because there's certainly nothing to that effect in the text... Jesus doesn't say anywhere that the new commandment replaces any former commandments given. Nor is there any reason given in the New Testament to believe that.

Jesus said that anyone who breaks a commandment - even one of the least commandments - and teaches others to do so will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven. Does this carry less weight because he introduced a new commandment?

I've seen a lot of references to Paul, specifically where he talks about being freed from the law. There seems to be a little confusion as to what Paul is talking about. When we were bound by the law, the only possible ending for us was death. Not a single one of us can follow the law perfectly. In fact, Paul spends time making that point before talking about freedom from the law of sin and death. The law of Moses, as it is sometimes called, couldn't save anybody. It could only bind them.

The law of the Spirit - the fulfillment of the entirety of the sacrificial law - was able to save us. So through Jesus' death we were set free from the law of Moses. That doesn't mean that the law of Moses is no longer what's right. It means that we are no longer bound by it to an end of certain death.

Paul says in this same chapter (Romans 8) that those who have Jesus Christ abiding in them do not live according to the flesh - that is sin. They abide by the Spirit and the law of God, whom we are to love by His own commandment.

And how do we love God? We keep His commandments? (1 John).

How do we love each other? Well, according to Jesus, the "law and the prophets" are all predicated on us loving God and each other... So it would appear that the law tells us how to do that.

My response was to another and the erroneous claim he was making. As to the rest, your scriptural references simply do not support your conclusions. The Law doesn't tell us how to love God and each other, the Law tells us that we are incapable of such. God IS Love, and the Law leads us to the One who is Love. We love God and others only as He Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ is doing so in and through us as we live by faith in Him.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

[Meowzltov]

The Law doesn't tell us how to love God and each other

Yes it does.

 

[Steeno7]

Yes it does.

You took it out of context, just as you do with scripture. Clueless and disingenuous.

 

[nomadictheist]

My response was to another and the erroneous claim he was making. As to the rest, your scriptural references simply do not support your conclusions. The Law doesn't tell us how to love God and each other, the Law tells us that we are incapable of such. God IS Love, and the Law leads us to the One who is Love. We love God and others only as He Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ is doing so in and through us as we live by faith in Him.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Yes, God IS love, but the law and the prophets tell us how to love God and love others. Just because we can't do that on our own (and never perfectly in this life) doesn't mean that's not how it's done.
The sacrifice of Jesus and the New Covenant free us, so that we are no longer judged by the law and we can actually have a relationship with the Holy God.
But here are some other things to consider:
Jesus said, "I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it... whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven..."
Jesus also said “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father. And He will give you another Helper to be with you forever..."
John said, "And this is love, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome..."
Jesus said "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. On these hang all the law and the prophets."
Also consider the author of Hebrews who says "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth there remains no longer a sacrifice for sins..."
And finally Paul, "For the commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet," and any other commandment are summed up in this word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law"

Again, we are justified by faith. If we live by faith, we will walk according to the Spirit - and not according to the flesh (sin). If we love God we will keep his commandments. If we love God and love others we will keep the law. The law does not save us, but neither is it wrong, evil, or revoked. Those who do not know Jesus are still judged by the law. Those who claim to know Jesus and live contrary to the law are scripturally said to be false sons and daughters. ("For anyone who keeps on sinning does not know God...")

Does that mean we'll never slip up? No. But it means that when we do we repent and acknowledge our wrongdoing rather than saying that God's law is no longer just, perfect, and loving, and we are now permitted to live contrary to it and still have a relationship with God.

If you live by faith, it will be evident in your works (James). If your faith doesn't manifest in your works, then it can't even save you (James).

 

[Steeno7]

Yes, God IS love, but the law and the prophets tell us how to love God and love others. Just because we can't do that on our own (and never perfectly in this life) doesn't mean that's not how it's done.
The sacrifice of Jesus and the New Covenant free us, so that we are no longer judged by the law and we can actually have a relationship with the Holy God.
But here are some other things to consider:
Jesus said, "I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it... whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven..."
Jesus also said “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father. And He will give you another Helper to be with you forever..."
John said, "And this is love, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome..."
Jesus said "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. On these hang all the law and the prophets."
Also consider the author of Hebrews who says "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth there remains no longer a sacrifice for sins..."
And finally Paul, "For the commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet," and any other commandment are summed up in this word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law"

Again, we are justified by faith. If we live by faith, we will walk according to the Spirit - and not according to the flesh (sin). If we love God we will keep his commandments. If we love God and love others we will keep the law. The law does not save us, but neither is it wrong, evil, or revoked. Those who do not know Jesus are still judged by the law. Those who claim to know Jesus and live contrary to the law are scripturally said to be false sons and daughters. ("For anyone who keeps on sinning does not know God...")

Does that mean we'll never slip up? No. But it means that when we do we repent and acknowledge our wrongdoing rather than saying that God's law is no longer just, perfect, and loving, and we are now permitted to live contrary to it and still have a relationship with God.

If you live by faith, it will be evident in your works (James). If your faith doesn't manifest in your works, then it can't even save you (James).

You're mixing and mashing many different concepts and ending up nowhere. But the main problem is you have inverted the truth creating a lie. It is not keeping the Ten Commandments that is loving God and others. Its loving God and others that is keeping His commands. And I repeat, it is not us, but Christ in us. The Christian life is Christ, and only He can live it…..our job is to let Him. That is what scripture is telling us when it tells us to live by faith in Jesus Christ…it is telling us to let Him be who He is, the God who is Love, in we and through we who are not.

 

[nomadictheist]

The Christian life is about Christ, but it doesn't "just happen." We have to put effort into it.

Nothing that you said counters my points... You just denied all of them and classified them as "unrelated."

You're right. We can't obey the law of God without Jesus Christ. Under the new covenant, He gives us the tools we need to resist temptation. But we still have to make an effort.

Loving each other fulfills the law, yes. This means that the law shows us how to love each other.

Let me put this another way. If you get a self-assembly kit for a bookshelf, and you put it together without using the instructions, that doesn't mean that the instructions don't tell you how to do it. It means you followed the instructions without actually using them. You still fulfilled the purpose of the instructions. You just didn't use the instructions to do it. You weren't bound by the instructions because you already had the ability to create what they were showing you how to create.

The law is similar. It tells us how to love others and love God. If we love others and love God through Jesus' power, we fulfill the law, even if we're not bound by it. We follow the law instinctively because the Spirit that God gives us shows us how to.

The law is like an instruction booklet for how to love others. God gives us the power to love others through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But He also gives us the guidebook because He knows we won't always get it right, and there's a lot of confusing and wrong ideas about what it means to "love others" out there. Will we ever be able to live perfectly? No. But that doesn't release us from the responsibility to try.